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It’s time... Fire Archie Miller


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50 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

This is where I am. There have been some positive things this year, but it seems like when one problem gets fixed or improves (FT shooting, for example), another problem rears its head. I've mentioned this before, and I hate to pin things on 1-2 players, but the biggest issue with this team boils down to Rob and Al, and their lack of production. One of those guys wasn't CAM's recruit, which really means that this could be boiled down to Archie missing on Rob. You could go even further and say that Rob hasn't been the same since his concussion, too, and I think most IU fans were pretty high on getting Rob when he committed. In addition, Rob was the kind of recruit we need - a 4 year guy - and also had offers from UVa, Purdue, Georgetown, and OSU, so it's not like he was a complete slouch. 

I get it, though. The above sounds like a lot of excuses, and CAM is ultimately responsible for the state of the program, and the results to this point aren't acceptable at IU (especially when you have a guy in Holtmann at OSU who has his team in the top 5 and was hired at the same time). I just don't know that it's a good idea to fire a guy for missing on one recruit, which is what this looks like. We've seen solid development from Armaan and Race, and this freshman class has shown promise, too. I would rather see what happens next year with this group before making a decision.

'Course, if Stevens is interested, all that I just wrote goes right out the window.

It's not just one recruit, though. Archie went after Darius Garland even after Rob committed. He's offered 20 PG and CG in the classes since, guys like DJ Carton, Tyrell Terry, Kira Lewis, Jahmius Ramsey, RJ Davis, Caleb Love, Andre Curbelo. The only one he's landed is Lander, playing up a class and not able to contribute. One low-four-star recruit turning into a bust shouldn't sink a program for multiple seasons. Archie has tried to recruit over Phinisee since he committed, he just hasn't been able to do so.

But it goes beyond PG. Where are the wings on this roster? Jerome Hunter came in the same class as Rob. He missed time for medical reasons as well, and white the injury is no one's fault, safe to say Jerome hasn't yet developed into the player we thought we were getting when he arrived. Yet there's no one else at his position. We had no one to match up with Aaron Henry against MSU. Our guards weren't strong enough and our bigs were too slow.

Four years in, with scholarships left on the table, I don't think Archie has recruited a roster that is well constructed or good enough to achieve what we want for the program.

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3 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

It's not just one recruit, though. Archie went after Darius Garland even after Rob committed. He's offered 20 PG and CG in the classes since, guys like DJ Carton, Tyrell Terry, Kira Lewis, Jahmius Ramsey, RJ Davis, Caleb Love, Andre Curbelo. The only one he's landed is Lander, playing up a class and not able to contribute. One low-four-star recruit turning into a bust shouldn't sink a program for multiple seasons. Archie has tried to recruit over Phinisee since he committed, he just hasn't been able to do so.

But it goes beyond PG. Where are the wings on this roster? Jerome Hunter came in the same class as Rob. He missed time for medical reasons as well, and white the injury is no one's fault, safe to say Jerome hasn't yet developed into the player we thought we were getting when he arrived. Yet there's no one else at his position. We had no one to match up with Aaron Henry against MSU. Our guards weren't strong enough and our bigs were too slow.

Four years in, with scholarships left on the table, I don't think Archie has recruited a roster that is well constructed or good enough to achieve what we want for the program.

As with the point guards, he tried to recruit Brooks and Garcia for Jerome's spot, but they are in other uniforms as well

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I know a lot of the conversation has been centered about the guard play and stagnant offense, but what seems even worse this year are our team defensive stats. We are in the bottom half of the B1G in every major team defensive category. I thought we were a team that hung it's hat on defense? 

Team Defensive rankings:
scoring: 8th
FG %: 10th
3PT %: 10th
Rebounding: 9th
TO margin: 9th

Yikes.

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I stated earlier that I would wait until the end of this season before I would make up my mind and I stand by that even today. Things aren't looking great so I understand much of the frustration, especially from those of us who remember winning a national championship and some of those special teams. However, this season isn't over yet and I will give Archie the benefit of the doubt until at least then. If we miss the NCAA tourney I would be fine, and probably prefer, moving on from him at that point.

If he does come back for a fifth season, which I'm guessing is likely, I would hope the bar is set high for him next season...as some others have mentioned, top 3 in BIG TEN, sweet 16 or better, and a good recruiting class for the following season.

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10 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I know a lot of the conversation has been centered about the guard play and stagnant offense, but what seems even worse this year are our team defensive stats. We are in the bottom half of the B1G in every major team defensive category. I thought we were a team that hung it's hat on defense? 

Team Defensive rankings:
scoring: 8th
FG %: 10th
3PT %: 10th
Rebounding: 9th
TO margin: 9th

Yikes.

Fun fact: Archie has yet to field a defense ranked better in KenPom than Crean’s highest-ranked defense.

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1 minute ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Fun fact: Archie has yet to field a defense ranked better in KenPom than Crean’s highest-ranked defense.

I also meant to add about the stats I posted above: they are for all of our games played. Those rankings dip even further if you look at the stats in B1G play only. On one of the IUBB podcasts, they said this team 10th in defensive efficiency in B1G play. 

Woof.

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9 minutes ago, FritzIam4IU said:

If he does come back for a fifth season, which I'm guessing is likely, I would hope the bar is set high for him next season...as some others have mentioned, top 3 in BIG TEN, sweet 16 or better, and a good recruiting class for the following season.

I never liked the hire.  But i did always say to myself he needs 4 years.  Unfortunately after 3 i was done but waited for this year to turn out.  And even if we win out, it's not going to change my mind that he is going to take IU anywhere in his tenure.

The problem i have is this.  Lets say we limp into the dance and get bounced round 1.  Then what?  If we make the dance next year and lose in the first or second round do you fire him?  Do you extend him for a couple more years?  Do you go all in long term on him?  And what if next year is a huge year and we run to a S16?  Do you extend him a year or 2 or go big on it? 

I think you have to make you choice this year.  You either fire him or go all in on him.  Because if he has a big year next year, those who are Archie fan are going to go all in that he is the savior and everything has come to fruition and this is what we should have waited for. And the Archer detractors are going to be yelling that its only 1 year and we have to wait for year 6.  And if year 6 is down we're right back to where we are were with CTC.  And if a big name coaching changes happen and we're still waiting for something to happen here and miss out, i don't think IU will recover from it.

The administration needs to make their decision this year.  Extend him for 4 years or move on with someone new.  Four terrible years with a great year on Contract extension year is going to be a nightmare for the fanbase and the university to navigate.

At least this is how i feel about it.

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23 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

 

The problem i have is this.  Lets say we limp into the dance and get bounced round 1.  Then what?  If we make the dance next year and lose in the first or second round do you fire him?  Do you extend him for a couple more years?  Do you go all in long term on him?  And what if next year is a huge year and we run to a S16?  Do you extend him a year or 2 or go big on it? 

Due to COVID and the buyout, I don't see Archie getting fired if we make the tourney. And it looks like we will just sneak in. 

 

If we meltdown and don't make the tourney, then it will take some balls from Dolson, but I think its 70% fired if that is the case. 

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1 hour ago, BADGERVOL said:

If your problem after FOUR years as a coach is that ONE recruit didn’t pan out...the case is closed...you should lose your job period.

 

1 hour ago, Maedhros said:

It's not just one recruit, though. Archie went after Darius Garland even after Rob committed. He's offered 20 PG and CG in the classes since, guys like DJ Carton, Tyrell Terry, Kira Lewis, Jahmius Ramsey, RJ Davis, Caleb Love, Andre Curbelo. The only one he's landed is Lander, playing up a class and not able to contribute. One low-four-star recruit turning into a bust shouldn't sink a program for multiple seasons. Archie has tried to recruit over Phinisee since he committed, he just hasn't been able to do so.

But it goes beyond PG. Where are the wings on this roster? Jerome Hunter came in the same class as Rob. He missed time for medical reasons as well, and white the injury is no one's fault, safe to say Jerome hasn't yet developed into the player we thought we were getting when he arrived. Yet there's no one else at his position. We had no one to match up with Aaron Henry against MSU. Our guards weren't strong enough and our bigs were too slow.

Four years in, with scholarships left on the table, I don't think Archie has recruited a roster that is well constructed or good enough to achieve what we want for the program.

Fair points, and I agree with what you both are saying. I honestly don't know what to think. I see signs of him being a solid coach - some of the plays coming out of TOs and to start the game are well designed, for example - but then there's the obvious issues that don't seem to be improving, or one thing improves and another regresses. The defensive numbers are certainly alarming. To be completely fair, this is also a pretty young team in a conference that is as good as it has even been, and it shows. But, again, the buck stops with CAM.

I guess I'm just not mentally ready to go through yet another coaching change, and was really hoping we had our answer for the next two decades in CAM. 

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43 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I also meant to add about the stats I posted above: they are for all of our games played. Those rankings dip even further if you look at the stats in B1G play only. On one of the IUBB podcasts, they said this team 10th in defensive efficiency in B1G play. 

Woof.

Actually 11th 🤢

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34 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I never liked the hire.  But i did always say to myself he needs 4 years.  Unfortunately after 3 i was done but waited for this year to turn out.  And even if we win out, it's not going to change my mind that he is going to take IU anywhere in his tenure.

The problem i have is this.  Lets say we limp into the dance and get bounced round 1.  Then what?  If we make the dance next year and lose in the first or second round do you fire him?  Do you extend him for a couple more years?  Do you go all in long term on him?  And what if next year is a huge year and we run to a S16?  Do you extend him a year or 2 or go big on it? 

I think you have to make you choice this year.  You either fire him or go all in on him.  Because if he has a big year next year, those who are Archie fan are going to go all in that he is the savior and everything has come to fruition and this is what we should have waited for. And the Archer detractors are going to be yelling that its only 1 year and we have to wait for year 6.  And if year 6 is down we're right back to where we are were with CTC.  And if a big name coaching changes happen and we're still waiting for something to happen here and miss out, i don't think IU will recover from it.

The administration needs to make their decision this year.  Extend him for 4 years or move on with someone new.  Four terrible years with a great year on Contract extension year is going to be a nightmare for the fanbase and the university to navigate.

At least this is how i feel about it.

Sadly, I agree.  

 

Evaluating a coach should be done on the "body of work".  It gives ample time to make a proper decision.  It helps lessen poor results early in the tenure, but it also has to take the bad with the good.

At this point it's getting like heading into a final exam with a " C" and needing a final grade of "B" or higher - you have to ace the final and hope that "B" is good enough.

Seeing some of the eye-opening facts, I'd submit that given the results thus far a coach with equal results would be on the hot seat at a school like Neb, NW, or Rutgers.  No way in hades does this cut it at IU.

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On 2/21/2021 at 10:00 AM, BGleas said:

This isn't a post about wanting Crean back or a post saying we shouldn't have fired him, it's not a support of Crean post.

With that said, I miss the passion, energy and confidence of his good teams. Take a look at the clip below, that team played with energy, emotion and passion. You could never question the energy and effort of guys like Yogi Ferrell, Troy Williams and Thomas Bryant. They weren't perfect and they had their flaws during their careers, and consistency took time to develop, but they were exciting and played hard and there was excitement. 

You can never question the energy and passion of guys like Cody Zeller, Victor Oladipo or Will Sheehey. 

I miss that. It's not about system or style. Winning, energy and passion are what it is about. Crean's guys had their flaws too, but I haven't seen a single player in the last four years play with the energy, passion and confidence that the guys mentioned above played with. 

I also miss having that kind of talent. A team with Zeller, Oladipo, Watford, Hulls and Sheehey, a team with Yogi, Bryant, Williams and OG, etc., etc. 

But, I just miss watching teams that had some excitement, energy and passion. 

 

This times infinity. I just miss the excitement. I just always felt that once CTC got things moving in the right direction we could beat any team in the country night in and night out. I never thought that we could get beat by any team. Now I do feel that if the stars align perfectly we can beat good teams but the odds are more likely that we lose to a bad team.  I hate that I expect IU to lose most games.  

I am not going to put too much emphasis on things but I can tell you that if IU loses to PU again the buyout might not even be an issue. If the only win in the next 4 is Rutgers I am not as certain as I was a week ago that he gets season #5. 

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23 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Why does the anti-Archie crowd keep saying this? Say it enough and people will believe it?

There was no tournament last year...nobody made it...

I get that but no one made the tourney last year so its not false either. Tom Izzo had made 22 straight until last year and that was displayed on ESPN on Saturday. It does not take away the fact that if they miss this year we are in uncharted waters in the history of the program. 

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3 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Another fun fact: Tom Crean has had three teams with defenses ranked in the top 25 on KenPom, and another ranked in the top 30.  Archie has had one team with a defense ranked in the top 25 on KenPom, and another two ranked in the top 30.

Dang, why do folks call them "fun Facts"???

They make me more depressed!!  🤥

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5 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

I get that but no one made the tourney last year so its not false either. Tom Izzo had made 22 straight until last year and that was displayed on ESPN on Saturday. It does not take away the fact that if they miss this year we are in uncharted waters in the history of the program. 

I think this debate can be 100% avoided if in the future we phrase it: this team physically hasn't gone to a NCAA tournament under CAM. 😎 

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Just now, Billingsley99 said:

I get that but no one made the tourney last year so its not false either. Tom Izzo had made 22 straight until last year and that was displayed on ESPN on Saturday. It does not take away the fact that if they miss this year we are in uncharted waters in the history of the program. 

So let me ask you this...

If MSU would by some miracle make it this year, his streak would be broken anyway? 

When you were coaching, if you had a 10 game winning streak, and your next opponent had to cancel for, oh, I don't know, safety reasons, and your school mutually agreed to the cancelation, does that mean your winning streak is snapped?

I know people are desperate to get Archie out, but don't BS it...

And I'll say this...I think people should be careful what they wish for...

 

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11 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

So let me ask you this...

If MSU would by some miracle make it this year, his streak would be broken anyway? 

When you were coaching, if you had a 10 game winning streak, and your next opponent had to cancel for, oh, I don't know, safety reasons, and your school mutually agreed to the cancelation, does that mean your winning streak is snapped?

I know people are desperate to get Archie out, but don't BS it...

And I'll say this...I think people should be careful what they wish for...

 

I for 1 really don't care if he is kept on or fired. I just want something to be excited about and in 4 years the most excited thing to happen IMO is when Romeo announced to the world he was coming to IU, and I had already known that for a fact for 2 months and I was still excited. Nothing since then has even remotely moved the needle for me. I could care less who coaches just win some games and give us starving fans something to be happy about. I hate living in an area surrounded by PU fans and i can't even have some fun trash talk, When my 2 oldest kids were growing up, during CTC time, I could at least have some back and forth with their friends that came over and bash PU. Now i just try to bury my head in the sand and those guys feel sorry for Indiana and fans like me. Is it too much to ask to find a person who can win?? Maybe it is and this is what IU is destined to be.

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15 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I think this debate can be 100% avoided if in the future we phrase it: this team physically hasn't gone to a NCAA tournament under CAM. 😎 

That post I linked up above, Al Durham will be one of the first IU players in decades to go through his entire career without being ranked in the Top 10 at least 1 time. 

We are setting all time records for futility now.

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11 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

So let me ask you this...

If MSU would by some miracle make it this year, his streak would be broken anyway? 

When you were coaching, if you had a 10 game winning streak, and your next opponent had to cancel for, oh, I don't know, safety reasons, and your school mutually agreed to the cancelation, does that mean your winning streak is snapped?

I know people are desperate to get Archie out, but don't BS it...

And I'll say this...I think people should be careful what they wish for...

 

Man, you are going to die on this hill and its not worth it.  There are so many other points you could be willing to stand your ground on but this seems like one you should just move past.  Its Schrodinger's Cat man.  We both made and missed the tourney last year because there was no selection Sunday. 

And it's not just the anti-CAM guys that are saying this.  it's everyone, except you and maybe 1 other person. 

Is it technically correct to say we missed last year.  No.  Is it correct to say we made it. No.

 

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