It’s time... Fire Archie Miller

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, IUCrazy2 said:

The heat is going to be cranked.

When Vitale starts talking bad about a program you know it is bad.  He usually never really talks negative about a program or a coach,

[Fundamentals]

Archie Miller will be the coach next season UNLESS he chases a role with another school.  That said, changes are needed.  Load up on transfers, mix it together over the offseason and reheat.  
 

I’ve seen enough to come to a somewhat settled position on Archie.  He is capable.  BUT, he must get talented guards who can shoot, handle the ball with pace.  Also, he must get TALENT to get into the up tier of the conference.  2 deficiencies must get fixed: shooting and talent. 

[Fundamentals]

Stated another way: Scott Drew’s offense?  Doesn’t impress me in the least.  Baylor scores because they score in transition very well and can shoot the 3.  The offense itself?  Very mediocre as far as half-court movement. 

[Fundamentals]

Lastly, we should set aside the administration narrative as a crutch.  Tom Allen and Teri Moren are both thriving under the same administration and are building their respective programs to new heights.

 

[BADGERVOL]

10 minutes ago, Fundamentals said:

Lastly, we should set aside the administration narrative as a crutch.  Tom Allen and Teri Moren are both thriving under the same administration and are building their respective programs to new heights.

 

The admin is not being used as a crutch by a single soul. No one is even hinting that if the Administration somehow acted differently Archie would be successful. This point has clearly been hashed out in this thread in great detail.
 

The school is overwhelmingly justified to fire Archie on his coaching career’s totality without any need whatsoever to dip into anything other than that. And any attempt to bring him back should embrace and accept all the destruction that it will almost certainly lead to.

you could be right with your posts...but there is MUCH less evidence to support your position than there is that he should get canned. But it isn’t any fan’s call so we shall see.

[NCHoosier32]

is this the post game thread now too?  ☺️  JK... even though we all know it is gonna happen, the melt down will reach max intensity when we lose to Purdouche again to lose out the regular season. 

[rico]

2 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

is this the post game thread now too?  ☺️  JK... even though we all know it is gonna happen, the melt down will reach max intensity when we lose to Purdouche again to lose out the regular season. 

I would say this thread is a catch-all...

[D-BONE]

So painful to watch. At this point, if I even muster the courage to start the game, I have to turn it off. It's so damn ugly between our continual anemic shooting/offense and the horrific B1G officiating. It hurts, but we've become an afterthought of college basketball. Maybe even bordering on a laughing stock. 

[dbmhoosier]

7 minutes ago, D-BONE said:

So painful to watch. At this point, if I even muster the courage to start the game, I have to turn it off. It's so damn ugly between our continual anemic shooting/offense and the horrific B1G officiating. It hurts, but we've become an afterthought of college basketball. Maybe even bordering on a laughing stock. 

It's Miller time baby.

 

[H00sier]

1 hour ago, NCHoosier32 said:

is this the post game thread now too?  ☺️  JK... even though we all know it is gonna happen, the melt down will reach max intensity when we lose to Purdouche again to lose out the regular season. 

I won’t be watching that game, flipping   Purdue has more fire and grit in their toe clippings, initially I loved CAM’s low key persona after Creans antics- we need a coach with a pulse.

[IUCrazy2]

1 hour ago, Fundamentals said:

Archie Miller will be the coach next season UNLESS he chases a role with another school.  That said, changes are needed.  Load up on transfers, mix it together over the offseason and reheat.  
 

I’ve seen enough to come to a somewhat settled position on Archie.  He is capable.  BUT, he must get talented guards who can shoot, handle the ball with pace.  Also, he must get TALENT to get into the up tier of the conference.  2 deficiencies must get fixed: shooting and talent. 

Sorry, he is currently residing over the worst 4 year stretch of basketball in 100 years.  100 YEARS.  If you were his boss and I were your boss and you went to defend him and keep him around for another knowing that he basically has to burn part of the program down and start from scratch in year 5, I would tell you that you are tieing your fate to his. 

If it works out, you are a genius who saw what no one else did.  If it doesn't, you are blind.  Worst of all, if he does just enough to save his neck for one year so it becomes a PR issue to fire him for "improvement",  it may be that I have to fire you and keep him around a little longer.  We are getting a new President.  Keeping Miller around is setting that guy or girl up to have their biggest headache being fans who are apoplectic over the basketball team.

[jefftheref]

21 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

It's Miller time baby.

 

We should all drink to that!

[DC2345]

8 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

The heat is going to be cranked.

Vitale was just throwing out support for Archie on twitter a few days ago when that SI article came out. I guess he's changed his mind after a couple of more losses. 

[rico]

10 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

Vitale was just throwing out support for Archie on twitter a few days ago when that SI article came out. I guess he's changed his mind after a couple of more losses. 

Vitale is like a zit that won't go away...baby!

[Bustout]

2 hours ago, Fundamentals said:

Stated another way: Scott Drew’s offense?  Doesn’t impress me in the least.  Baylor scores because they score in transition very well and can shoot the 3.  The offense itself?  Very mediocre as far as half-court movement. 

Which coach/school runs a solid half court offense?  It seems like the days of the motion offense are gone with a shorter shot clock.   I see a lot of complaints that today’s offense is garbage for all of college hoops ... so just curious who you like?

[AxnJxn]

My issue with firing CAM now is really kind of stupid, but I really want to see what this freshman class does next year and going forward. It's a really interesting mix of skills - Leal can shoot, Geronimo looks like a highlight reel waiting to happen, Lander looks like he's going to be the PG we've been missing for 4 years, and Galloway has that basketball IQ we all talk about (ok, ok, he's taken a couple of really dumb shots, but anyway). Combine that with a healthy Franklin who, before his injury, looked like he was developing into our Aaron Henry guy who could create his own shot and was the go to guy down the stretch. Mix in another year of Race, and I'm intrigued to see how it goes.

On the other hand, it's really bad right now, and another loss to Purdue is going to be pretty much rock bottom.

[rico]

5 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

My issue with firing CAM now is really kind of stupid, but I really want to see what this freshman class does next year and going forward. It's a really interesting mix of skills - Leal can shoot, Geronimo looks like a highlight reel waiting to happen, Lander looks like he's going to be the PG we've been missing for 4 years, and Galloway has that basketball IQ we all talk about (ok, ok, he's taken a couple of really dumb shots, but anyway). Combine that with a healthy Franklin who, before his injury, looked like he was developing into our Aaron Henry guy who could create his own shot and was the go to guy down the stretch. Mix in another year of Race, and I'm intrigued to see how it goes.

On the other hand, it's really bad right now, and another loss to Purdue is going to be pretty much rock bottom.

I like your spirit...the cupboard isn't bare.

[iuthruandthru]

2 hours ago, Fundamentals said:

Lastly, we should set aside the administration narrative as a crutch.  Tom Allen and Teri Moren are both thriving under the same administration and are building their respective programs to new heights.

 

Your post is cherry picking on their success yet you fail to point out the key flaw in your post.  Teri Moren, who I love by the way, came from ISU.  Allen, who I think almost no  one dislikes, came from his position as a DC and had no D1 level experience as a Head Coach.  Archie, came from a successful stint at a non power 5 school.  See the pattern there?  Not saying it’s wrong way to go but clearly IU isn’t setting the earth a fire with who they bring in at first glance.  There is no urge to bring in another Knight and you see that in how they hire.  And that’s fine if that’s what they want to do. If Archie is let go let’s follow who they hire and see if the pattern continues.  I suspect it will.

[IUCrazy2]

9 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

My issue with firing CAM now is really kind of stupid, but I really want to see what this freshman class does next year and going forward. It's a really interesting mix of skills - Leal can shoot, Geronimo looks like a highlight reel waiting to happen, Lander looks like he's going to be the PG we've been missing for 4 years, and Galloway has that basketball IQ we all talk about (ok, ok, he's taken a couple of really dumb shots, but anyway). Combine that with a healthy Franklin who, before his injury, looked like he was developing into our Aaron Henry guy who could create his own shot and was the go to guy down the stretch. Mix in another year of Race, and I'm intrigued to see how it goes.

On the other hand, it's really bad right now, and another loss to Purdue is going to be pretty much rock bottom.

I think the Freshmen class stays either way.  3 of those guys are Indiana kids.  Geronimo has shown some things this year where a new coach is likely to recruit him to stay.

In this instance, you could probably have your cake and eat it too.

[IUrocker]

3 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I think the Freshmen class stays either way.  3 of those guys are Indiana kids.  Geronimo has shown some things this year where a new coach is likely to recruit him to stay.

In this instance, you could probably have your cake and eat it too.

Yep agreed, you beat me to it. I don’t think getting rid of Archie necessarily means we will lose the freshmen. 

[DC2345]

14 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

My issue with firing CAM now is really kind of stupid, but I really want to see what this freshman class does next year and going forward. It's a really interesting mix of skills - Leal can shoot, Geronimo looks like a highlight reel waiting to happen, Lander looks like he's going to be the PG we've been missing for 4 years, and Galloway has that basketball IQ we all talk about (ok, ok, he's taken a couple of really dumb shots, but anyway). Combine that with a healthy Franklin who, before his injury, looked like he was developing into our Aaron Henry guy who could create his own shot and was the go to guy down the stretch. Mix in another year of Race, and I'm intrigued to see how it goes.

On the other hand, it's really bad right now, and another loss to Purdue is going to be pretty much rock bottom.

Or all those freshman will be the exact same as sophomores because there have only been a couple of guys who have improved under CAM. Franklin and Race. That's the list. TJD is the same player he was last year he's just got a year of experience. 

[EvilleHoosier]

5 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

My issue with firing CAM now is really kind of stupid, but I really want to see what this freshman class does next year and going forward. It's a really interesting mix of skills - Leal can shoot, Geronimo looks like a highlight reel waiting to happen, Lander looks like he's going to be the PG we've been missing for 4 years, and Galloway has that basketball IQ we all talk about (ok, ok, he's taken a couple of really dumb shots, but anyway). Combine that with a healthy Franklin who, before his injury, looked like he was developing into our Aaron Henry guy who could create his own shot and was the go to guy down the stretch. Mix in another year of Race, and I'm intrigued to see how it goes.

On the other hand, it's really bad right now, and another loss to Purdue is going to be pretty much rock bottom.

I really like  Race, Franklin, Lander, Leal, Geronimo, and Galloway.  I just don't think it is enough talent to compete in the Big 10.  Really need to add another starting caliber transfer or two to put us closer to equal footing with the top of the conference, otherwise it will be another year in the lower half of the league.  The problem is, it takes guys time to adjust to Archie's defense.  So either he would have to abandon the pack line or shift the focus more towards offense, neither of which I think he will do.  I think a lot of our group will likely stay depending on who we get.

[cybergates]

1 hour ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Sorry, he is currently residing over the worst 4 year stretch of basketball in 100 years.  100 YEARS.  If you were his boss and I were your boss and you went to defend him and keep him around for another knowing that he basically has to burn part of the program down and start from scratch in year 5, I would tell you that you are tieing your fate to his. 

If it works out, you are a genius who saw what no one else did.  If it doesn't, you are blind.  Worst of all, if he does just enough to save his neck for one year so it becomes a PR issue to fire him for "improvement",  it may be that I have to fire you and keep him around a little longer.  We are getting a new President.  Keeping Miller around is setting that guy or girl up to have their biggest headache being fans who are apoplectic over the basketball team.

I think he needs to go but the "worst 4 year stretch of basketball in 100 years" is debatable. 13th worst 4 year stretch by overall record and 8th worst 4 year stretch in conference in the past 100 years. Still not acceptable by any means regardless of circumstances/injuries/excuses/etc.

 

[IUCrazy2]

9 minutes ago, cybergates said:

I think he needs to go but the "worst 4 year stretch of basketball in 100 years" is debatable. 13th worst 4 year stretch by overall record and 8th worst 4 year stretch in conference in the past 100 years. Still not acceptable by any means regardless of circumstances/injuries/excuses/etc.

 

Failure to get over .500 just one time in that stretch is the worst 4 year stretch IMO.  In all of those other instances, people at least got a glimmer of hope in one of the years.  Take Tom Crean's first 4 years.  Without looking, I am pretty sure that the overall record was worse, but the 4 years were capped off by Zeller's first year and a run to the Sweet 16.  That 4th year (Wat Shot, Sweet 16, etc.) made that 4 year stretch a better one than this IMO because it ended on a high note...or it had a high note included.

[DC2345]

 

Coach	Years	Win–Loss	Win %	Conference Titles	NCAA Tourn. Appearances	NCAA Titles

Everett Dean	1924–1938	162–93	.635	3	–	–
Branch McCracken	1938–1943, 1946–1965	364–174	.677	4	4	2
Harry C. Good	1943–1946	35–29	.547	0	0	0
Lou Watson	1965–1971	65–60	.520	1	1	0
Jerry Oliver	1969–1970, 1971	4–17	.190	0	0	0
Bob Knight	1971–2000	662–239	.735	11	24	3
Mike Davis	2000–2006	115–79	.592	1	4	0
Kelvin Sampson	2006–2008	43–15	.741	0	1	0
Dan Dakich	2008	3–4	.429	0	1	0
Tom Crean	2008–2017	166–135	.552	2	4	0
Archie Miller	2017–Current	55–43	.561	0	0	0

Since 1924 Archie has the worst winning percentage as the head coach at IU of any head coach who as there for more than a year other than Tom Crean and he had his worst years early on with that decimated roster. Jerry Oliver was the interim coach for 21 games and DD was the interim for 7 games. Think about that. He's also one of only 3 coaches to not make the NCAA tournament since Dean didn't have the NCAA tournament back then. So in a historical context CAM and Harry Good are the 2 worst coaches in the in the last 100 years of IU basketball. So as IU fans we are watching program history each time he coaches a game.