It’s time... Fire Archie Miller

[AxnJxn]

Just now, IUwins0708 said:

I think the discussion is already over😂

That's fine, and I get it. As I said, heads are going to explode. The 2012-13 team was a much better team overall, obviously. The point is more that this team has more talent than people think, IMO, especially if TJD returns. Secondary point was that there aren't any home run hires being mentioned in this thread. 

[PhinithreeMagic]

Just now, dwtaylor1055 said:

This sounds nice ring to it CJH...Come back home Jordy!

I had this thought the other day. I'd love to get him on the staff if he decides to go into coaching after he's done playing. He's been surrounded by great coaching his entire life and is a natural leader. I think he'd be extremely successful.

[AxnJxn]

2 minutes ago, Inequality said:

Like Franklin a lot but he’s not a Jordy. He’s trying but not close to the shooter Jordy is/was

There's more to the game than just shooting.  I completely agree that Hulls was a phenomenal shooter, and also one of the leaders on that team. Was he a better all around player than AF, though, especially when we're talking about someone who is only in year 2? Jordy was average at best on the defensive end, and he wasn't taking the ball in the lane like AF can, either. 

[Proud2BAHoosier]

48 minutes ago, Air Ball said:

I think that Archie Miller will be back next year.   Only way he wouldn't be back is if a donor or donors are found to make the buyout(s) happen and if there is a great alternative head coach available.

Wins are not the only criteria by which this coach or any coach may be evaluated.  Certainly, the whole body of work when looking at wins and losses is bad for IU and Archie.  So I would not be surprised if there is a change.

I actually can see the team being lots better  next year given a few positives.  We all know what they are.

The AD likely is not ready to pull the trigger on Archie Miller.  Crean did not leave the cupboard full.  In addition he and the previous administration may have just about poisoned the well.  Injuries have hobbled the team...year after year.  And Covid-19 may just give Archie Miller a bye year.  

These rumors happen.  Only the AD knows for sure.  He is likely on the fence and very patient.

 

 

I'll say this Air Ball, you've been consistent in your thinking.....

[Fundamentals]

18 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

If you don't think that 2013 team would beat the other by 30 plus points you're insane.

 

DBM, thank you. 
 

watching this video caused me to remember how stinkin’ tough we were that year.  It was also some medicine for my aching basketball soul. 

[Steubenhoosier]

Yep, even though I said I was done with this place, I clearly am as addicted as the rest of you. Go ahead with all the LOLs, and whatever disparaging remarks you wanna make, but I can't let this thread go on without responding.

Couple of things before I get to my main point....Yes, I was very vocally anti-Crean on this board. Didn't happen after year 4 though. Nine years is clearly a fairer time frame to evaluate a coach than four.

Been mentioned multiple times that CAM's recruiting is one of the main issues, especially the lack of bigs. IIRC, until Brunk's surgery, we had 3 kids to play inside. The loss of Joey, right before the season and too late to add another kid, is vastly underestimated by this fanbase. Not that he was a step-back shooter, but he was an inside presence that would have taken enormous pressure off of TJD and Race. They would not have had to guard a Cockburn or Garza or Dickinson or Williams or Johnson, on their own. And btw, they were outsized by each of the players I just mentioned, both in height and bulk. If nothing else, Joey was 5 more fouls to give, minutes to spare the other two, chances to keep them out of foul trouble.

My main point...Archie vowed to get old and stay old. He does not yet have one of his recruits who has attained his senior season yet. So many on here have talked about how important experience is in the college game...let's compare.

My very unscientific study looked at every B1G roster and the 5 kids on each team that played the most average minutes per game. Not the end all/ be all for evaluations, but does show what kind of experience was on the court most for each team.

IU's top 5 includes 1 Senior, 2 Juniors ( one of which is Race who sat out a season) and two Sophomores. The lone SR. was wildly erratic, but did improve during his time in Bloomington, and became a decent shooter. The JR. point guard was heralded by this board when he arrived, but has been a disappointment.

In comparison--

Illinois-2 Seniors and a Junior in top 5

Iowa--2 Seniors and 2 Juniors

Maryland--exactly like us, 1 Senior, 2 Juniors and 2 Sophomores

Michigan--3 Seniors in top 5

Michigan St.--1 Senior and 3 Juniors

Minnesota--1 Senior and 4 Juniors

Nebraska--1 Senior and 3 Juniors

Northwestern--Same as us.

Ohio State--2 Seniors and 2 Juniors

Penn St.--2 Seniors and 3 Juniors

Purdue--3 Juniors and 2 Freshmen... only team without a Senior

Rutgers--2 Seniors and 2 Juniors

Wisconsin--3 Seniors

The 3 schools whose rosters most compare to ours as far as experience are Maryland, Northwestern and Purdue.  Turgeon has had his system in place for 10 years, Collins for 8 years, and Painter for 16 years. Big difference in regards to having systems and cultures established.

Look, in no way am I happy or satisfied with the results on the court this season. However it is way too premature to run a coach out of the building after 4 years. Really disappointed in how this has become such a pile on and mob mentality here. Posters who vehemently stated how poor the records of Coach K or Wooden were in their first few years, and how they were given a chance to turn things around, are now part of the piling on.  I guess this doesn't surprise me. In this world of instant gratification, and what have you done for me today, this kind of mentality fits perfectly.

I hope the BOT meets with the new AD this weekend and comes to the correct decision to give CAM more time. To at least let him get to the point where he can "get old" much less "stay old". To see what he can do when he has all his players available to him. 

 

 

 

[jv1972iu]

26 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Cody was light years ahead of Trayce

Yep...I mean, how many breakaway baskets have we seen from TJD?  When people/tv announcers said, "Zeller runs the floor"... you knew exactly what they meant.  I mostly see TJD jogging.  JMHO.

[IUrocker]

Not sure how reputable the writer is, but he flat out says he expects Archie to part ways after this season, along with Pitino at MN. 

https://heatcheckcbb.com/rauf-report-schools-expected-to-change-coaches-villanovas-outlook-more-college-basketball-weekly-takeaways/?fbclid=IwAR3LTvDzamFJ2cqVq_M1GQwcIIfn3Jv6WP6UkBKU6GTZbAGRPz6sOyNjErY

[IUCrazy2]

39 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

I'm just going to throw this out there ... some heads will likely explode, though.

2012-13 roster vs. potential 2021-22 roster

Yogi - Lander

Hulls - Franklin

VO - Hunter

Watford - Race

Zeller - TJD

Pretty big edge to VO and Yogi, but those other 3 spots are arguably pretty even, and the bench isn't too bad, either - Brunk, Rob, Leal, Geronimo, Trey, Stewart, Duncomb.

I'm just saying that without a home run hire, I'd like to see what CAM does with that before making a change. 

The 21/22 roster has the edge in maybe, maybe one spot and that would be Franklin and Hulls.  That is the only position that would give me pause on the question of "Would you want this guy or that one".  Every other matchup I would rather have the 12/13 player than the 21/22.

[AxnJxn]

1 minute ago, IUCrazy2 said:

The 21/22 roster has the edge in maybe, maybe one spot and that would be Franklin and Hulls.  That is the only position that would give me pause on the question of "Would you want this guy or that one".  Every other matchup I would rather have the 12/13 player than the 21/22.

I would agree right now. But, my post was talking about potential for next year, not how they are playing now. Vic made a huge jump at this point in time in his career, and we're talking about an entire starting five that will be a year older, along with the bench. It's easy to say you'll take 4 of those guys right now - we already know how those 12/13 guys turned out. We're losing 1 guy of significance, and returning everyone else (assuming no transfers out), and there's a lot of potential returning.

[5fouls]

4 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Yep, even though I said I was done with this place, I clearly am as addicted as the rest of you. Go ahead with all the LOLs, and whatever disparaging remarks you wanna make, but I can't let this thread go on without responding.

 

Steub.  I apparently missed the post when you said you were done with this place.  But, I had noticed you had not been posting lately.  Glad to see you back.  We're all part of the same family, and we all want the same thing.  There will be disagreements, and just like a real family, there is an occasional family member that must have been dropped on their head at some point.  But, like always, we'll get through it for better or for worse.  

Despite all of the negative discussions going on right now, this board actually helps me be a BETTER fan.  Without it, I have a feeling my apathy would be much greater.  But, knowing there are others out there that care as much about IU. and are suffering as much as I am, helps keep me engaged..    

[IUFLA]

The great thing about basketball is, one player really CAN make a difference...Larry Bird going to Boston is the extreme of that, but with a healthy Armaan, Parker Stewart, and Logan Duncomb coming in, and our freshmen having more experience, I feel pretty good about our team...

[iuthruandthru]

2 hours ago, dbmhoosier said:

Any rumors on who the next President will be?  Surely they aren't stupid enough to promote from within again.  We need to find our Mitch Daniels.

From what i was recently told the new president would be know by April.  Give them time to transition from current role to new role and get some time with McRobbie to transition.  I have tried to get an idea of who it might be but my usual people are being tight lipped on it.

I personally fully expect another academic.  No chance we get a Mitch Daniels IMO.  My best hope is someone in the middle of McRobbie and Daniels is likely our ceiling here.

[go_iu_bb]

18 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

He does not yet have one of his recruits who has attained his senior season yet.

Race Thompson is Miller's 1st recruit and this is his 4th season. So this isn't true even though Thompson is only a junior as far as eligibility.

[Billingsley99]

55 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

I'm just going to throw this out there ... some heads will likely explode, though.

2012-13 roster vs. potential 2021-22 roster

Yogi - Lander

Hulls - Franklin

VO - Hunter

Watford - Race

Zeller - TJD

Pretty big edge to VO and Yogi, but those other 3 spots are arguably pretty even, and the bench isn't too bad, either - Brunk, Rob, Leal, Geronimo, Trey, Stewart, Duncomb.

I'm just saying that without a home run hire, I'd like to see what CAM does with that before making a change. 

The only sentence that Cody and TJD are in is that Cody would dominate TJD. Not a knock on Trayce but Cody waa a lottery pick 

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

Race Thompson is Miller's 1st recruit and this is his 4th season. So this isn't true even though Thompson is only a junior as far as eligibility.

Kinda lost in the Race story though is that he did have to sit out most of his redshirt freshman year with a concussion...that kept him away from any basketball activities for 3 months...Lost year...

[AxnJxn]

4 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

The only sentence that Cody and TJD are in is that Cody would dominate TJD. Not a knock on Trayce but Cody waa a lottery pick 

Where they are going to be drafted is irrelevant. You're also comparing 2020/21 TJD to Cody in that year. You don't think a guy with NBA aspirations isn't going to work to improve his game before next year?

I must say, I'm pretty impressed with how many people here can predict the future, and that there's no chance across the board that any of these guys could develop into one of their 12/13 counterparts. 

[IUCrazy2]

14 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Yep, even though I said I was done with this place, I clearly am as addicted as the rest of you. Go ahead with all the LOLs, and whatever disparaging remarks you wanna make, but I can't let this thread go on without responding.

Couple of things before I get to my main point....Yes, I was very vocally anti-Crean on this board. Didn't happen after year 4 though. Nine years is clearly a fairer time frame to evaluate a coach than four.

Been mentioned multiple times that CAM's recruiting is one of the main issues, especially the lack of bigs. IIRC, until Brunk's surgery, we had 3 kids to play inside. The loss of Joey, right before the season and too late to add another kid, is vastly underestimated by this fanbase. Not that he was a step-back shooter, but he was an inside presence that would have taken enormous pressure off of TJD and Race. They would not have had to guard a Cockburn or Garza or Dickinson or Williams or Johnson, on their own. And btw, they were outsized by each of the players I just mentioned, both in height and bulk. If nothing else, Joey was 5 more fouls to give, minutes to spare the other two, chances to keep them out of foul trouble.

My main point...Archie vowed to get old and stay old. He does not yet have one of his recruits who has attained his senior season yet. So many on here have talked about how important experience is in the college game...let's compare.

My very unscientific study looked at every B1G roster and the 5 kids on each team that played the most average minutes per game. Not the end all/ be all for evaluations, but does show what kind of experience was on the court most for each team.

IU's top 5 includes 1 Senior, 2 Juniors ( one of which is Race who sat out a season) and two Sophomores. The lone SR. was wildly erratic, but did improve during his time in Bloomington, and became a decent shooter. The JR. point guard was heralded by this board when he arrived, but has been a disappointment.

In comparison--

Illinois-2 Seniors and a Junior in top 5

Iowa--2 Seniors and 2 Juniors

Maryland--exactly like us, 1 Senior, 2 Juniors and 2 Sophomores

Michigan--3 Seniors in top 5

Michigan St.--1 Senior and 3 Juniors

Minnesota--1 Senior and 4 Juniors

Nebraska--1 Senior and 3 Juniors

Northwestern--Same as us.

Ohio State--2 Seniors and 2 Juniors

Penn St.--2 Seniors and 3 Juniors

Purdue--3 Juniors and 2 Freshmen... only team without a Senior

Rutgers--2 Seniors and 2 Juniors

Wisconsin--3 Seniors

The 3 schools whose rosters most compare to ours as far as experience are Maryland, Northwestern and Purdue.  Turgeon has had his system in place for 10 years, Collins for 8 years, and Painter for 16 years. Big difference in regards to having systems and cultures established.

Look, in no way am I happy or satisfied with the results on the court this season. However it is way too premature to run a coach out of the building after 4 years. Really disappointed in how this has become such a pile on and mob mentality here. Posters who vehemently stated how poor the records of Coach K or Wooden were in their first few years, and how they were given a chance to turn things around, are now part of the piling on.  I guess this doesn't surprise me. In this world of instant gratification, and what have you done for me today, this kind of mentality fits perfectly.

I hope the BOT meets with the new AD this weekend and comes to the correct decision to give CAM more time. To at least let him get to the point where he can "get old" much less "stay old". To see what he can do when he has all his players available to him. 

 

 

 

Welcome back.

Just to address a few of your points.

1.  On injuries impacting the team, we have had that almost every year Miller has been here and he still leaves scholarships open.  Not having another body if Brunk, Race, or TJD went down is his fault.  He has held a scholarship open every year IIRC.

2.  Whenever one of the coaches who took time to get things going is brought up, you can clearly see a line of improvement.  You almost always see that pay off in the 4th year as their players beging to take over the program.  This is turning into one of the worst years that Miller has had here.  When looking at the conference record (one of the better gauges of performance IMO because it is generally the same opponents from year to year) he has been on a decline as he brings more of his players into the program.

3.  As far as instant gratification, it has been 4 years.  You and I have a completely different definition of instant.

Finally, if we were going to keep him around, I think most would feel better about it if we were seeing any signs of hope that things will be better.  The defense took a step back.  The offense has never materialized.  We have one transfer and one new big guy coming.  Which constitutes one of the worst ranked classes in our conference.  There is no guarantee that the team's "best" player has any intention of returning.  There was a reason you didn't point to anything positive we have going on with our team that you could point to as a reason to keep him on board.  "We get older" is all you had.  That in and of itself speaks to being on the wrong path.

You are free to feel he should be back.  I just feel that, other than the buyout, he hasn't done anything on the court to warrant optimism that another year is going to be appreciably better.  And if he gets another year, it is going to have to be MUCH, MUCH better for him to quiet his skeptics.

One last thing, this is probably the most positive forum for Indiana basketball that I have come across.  I think the negativity you are seeing here is a reflection of the damage Miller did to his reputation with the fanbase this year.  It took 4 years of poor basketball for some to come to that conclusion, for what it's worth I think accusing people like IUScott (you did not name him specifically but he is one guy that was preaching patience for years) of being "instant gratification" is extremely disingenuous on your part.  

[go_iu_bb]

4 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Kinda lost in the Race story though is that he did have to sit out most of his redshirt freshman year with a concussion...that kept him away from any basketball activities for 3 months...Lost year...

It's not lost because we keep hearing the injury excuses. This is one of those that we keep getting reminded of.

Thompson has still been with the program 4 years.

[Billingsley99]

2 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

Where they are going to be drafted is irrelevant. You're also comparing 2020/21 TJD to Cody in that year. You don't think a guy with NBA aspirations isn't going to work to improve his game before next year?

I must say, I'm pretty impressed with how many people here can predict the future, and that there's no chance across the board that any of these guys could develop into one of their 12/13 counterparts. 

Have you been watching the past 4 years. Why would you expect that type of improvement.  3 of those guys are still in the league. I would love that type of improvement.  In 2 years neither Race nor TJD can shoot from perimeter. Franklin is the 1 guy that could find a way to steal some minutes from the 12/13 team

[IUFLA]

3 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

It's not lost because we keep hearing the injury excuses. This is one of those that we keep getting reminded of.

Thompson has still been with the program 4 years.

So I guess the same for Jerome, even though he couldn't pick up a basketball for his first year?

[Inequality]

11 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

Where they are going to be drafted is irrelevant. You're also comparing 2020/21 TJD to Cody in that year. You don't think a guy with NBA aspirations isn't going to work to improve his game before next year?

I must say, I'm pretty impressed with how many people here can predict the future, and that there's no chance across the board that any of these guys could develop into one of their 12/13 counterparts. 

I thinks it’s the consistant air balls and side of the backboard bullseyes that’s giving people doubts 🤪

[IUCrazy2]

7 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

Where they are going to be drafted is irrelevant. You're also comparing 2020/21 TJD to Cody in that year. You don't think a guy with NBA aspirations isn't going to work to improve his game before next year?

I must say, I'm pretty impressed with how many people here can predict the future, and that there's no chance across the board that any of these guys could develop into one of their 12/13 counterparts. 

Cody left after his Sophomore year.  That is an apples to apples comparison.  What you see there from Zeller is a comparison to what TJD is now.  Zeller was an NBA player his "Junior" year. 

VO was a Junior.  You had him opposite Hunter, also a junior (though he missed time due to injury).

Race is a RS junior.  Watford a senior.  Both 4 years in program.

Hulls and Franklin.  Fair point.  I think Franklin is going to turn into a player.  He is the better defender at the moment and Hulls had a better offensive game IMO.  I think that would be true if you compared them at similar times in their career.

Yogi was a Freshman.  Lander will be a sophomore.  Yeah, Lander is playing up a year but I think that Yogi in his first game of his freshman year looked better than Lander has looked in these last few games.  Not a completely apples to apples comparison, but getting closer.

I do agree we have talent on the team though.  I just have not been impressed with how it has been developed and used.

[AxnJxn]

Folks, some reading comprehension here. I wasn't comparing this current team to 12/13. I'm comparing the potential of these players next year to those in 12/13. I hope you realize that what you are saying is that there's is absolutely no chance, across the board, that any of these current players can improve enough to be comparable to those 12/13 guys. 

Yogi/Lander ... this was Yogi's freshman year, Lander will be in year 2, and they were both 5 star recruits.

Hulls/AF ... I appreciate that Hulls was a terrific shooter and a leader. AF can play defense, rebound, and drive to the hole, all things where Hulls was below average at best, and that's current AF, not AF after another offseason of work. He's clearly shown the ability to put in the work to improve.

VO/Hunter ... yeah, no real comparison here, and I understand that. Jerome would have to make a major jump for this to be comparable.

Race/Watford ... obviously shooting is a major difference. But, Christian didn't have much of an inside game or a presence on the boards, which Race has, at least a little bit. Still, I'd likely give the edge to Watford here, unless Race really develops an outside shot.

Cody/TJD ... their stats currently are fairly similar, and Cody was playing on a much better team and not commanding a double team every time he touched the ball. Another year of work for TJD could make this very comparable.

I appreciate the responses and that you think I'm crazy, and if I were comparing this current team to 12/13 I would agree, but you're not really responding to what I'm saying. 

[ledies22]

1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

If you don't think that 2013 team would beat the other by 30 plus points you're insane.

 

I loved this but hated it. I didnt realize i have been so apathetic with IU... kinda just hanging back waiting for us to be good again. 

 

But even that team was a disappointment.