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It’s time... Fire Archie Miller


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12 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

On injuries impacting the team, we have had that almost every year Miller has been here and he still leaves scholarships open.  Not having another body if Brunk, Race, or TJD went down is his fault.  He has held a scholarship open every year IIRC.

You can have all the scholarships you want, but those "bodies" you speak of aren't going to be of the caliber of the injured player in most cases...If Juwan would have been hurt in 2019, could Forrester or Moore have matched his output playing full time? Of course not...And then when they don't get minutes they transfer to get more playing time...

When Brunk got hurt, it was very late in the preseason...IIRC someone said he was the leading scorer in the scrimmage game...Archie had his rotation all mapped out by then...another "body" wasn't going to help...

I hated some of the bodies that Crean stuck us with...Priller, April, Jobe, Jurkin, Gelon...They weren't B1G caliber players and were never going to be...Kids that have B1G talent aren't coming to sit on the bench and watch for 40 minutes...

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4 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

Folks, some reading comprehension here. I wasn't comparing this current team to 12/13. I'm comparing the potential of these players next year to those in 12/13. I hope you realize that what you are saying is that there's is absolutely no chance, across the board, that any of these current players can improve enough to be comparable to those 12/13 guys. 

Yogi/Lander ... this was Yogi's freshman year, Lander will be in year 2, and they were both 5 star recruits.

Hulls/AF ... I appreciate that Hulls was a terrific shooter and a leader. AF can play defense, rebound, and drive to the hole, all things where Hulls was below average at best, and that's current AF, not AF after another offseason of work. He's clearly shown the ability to put in the work to improve.

VO/Hunter ... yeah, no real comparison here, and I understand that. Jerome would have to make a major jump for this to be comparable.

Race/Watford ... obviously shooting is a major difference. But, Christian didn't have much of an inside game or a presence on the boards, which Race has, at least a little bit. Still, I'd likely give the edge to Watford here, unless Race really develops an outside shot.

Cody/TJD ... their stats currently are fairly similar, and Cody was playing on a much better team and not commanding a double team every time he touched the ball. Another year of work for TJD could make this very comparable.

I appreciate the responses and that you think I'm crazy, and if I were comparing this current team to 12/13 I would agree, but you're not really responding to what I'm saying. 

One last quibble, I think you are underestimating what Watford did on the boards.  He was good for 6 a game, which is what Race is averaging at the moment as well.

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9 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

So I guess the same for Jerome, even though he couldn't pick up a basketball for his first year?

Completely different situations, as you're fully aware.

So do you think that concussion has hurt Thompson's progress 2 years later? Or would his stating healthy have helped prevent the poor record that season? If neither of those, why bring it up?

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1 hour ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Yep, even though I said I was done with this place, I clearly am as addicted as the rest of you. Go ahead with all the LOLs, and whatever disparaging remarks you wanna make, but I can't let this thread go on without responding.

Couple of things before I get to my main point....Yes, I was very vocally anti-Crean on this board. Didn't happen after year 4 though. Nine years is clearly a fairer time frame to evaluate a coach than four.

Been mentioned multiple times that CAM's recruiting is one of the main issues, especially the lack of bigs. IIRC, until Brunk's surgery, we had 3 kids to play inside. The loss of Joey, right before the season and too late to add another kid, is vastly underestimated by this fanbase. Not that he was a step-back shooter, but he was an inside presence that would have taken enormous pressure off of TJD and Race. They would not have had to guard a Cockburn or Garza or Dickinson or Williams or Johnson, on their own. And btw, they were outsized by each of the players I just mentioned, both in height and bulk. If nothing else, Joey was 5 more fouls to give, minutes to spare the other two, chances to keep them out of foul trouble.

My main point...Archie vowed to get old and stay old. He does not yet have one of his recruits who has attained his senior season yet. So many on here have talked about how important experience is in the college game...let's compare.

My very unscientific study looked at every B1G roster and the 5 kids on each team that played the most average minutes per game. Not the end all/ be all for evaluations, but does show what kind of experience was on the court most for each team.

IU's top 5 includes 1 Senior, 2 Juniors ( one of which is Race who sat out a season) and two Sophomores. The lone SR. was wildly erratic, but did improve during his time in Bloomington, and became a decent shooter. The JR. point guard was heralded by this board when he arrived, but has been a disappointment.

In comparison--

Illinois-2 Seniors and a Junior in top 5

Iowa--2 Seniors and 2 Juniors

Maryland--exactly like us, 1 Senior, 2 Juniors and 2 Sophomores

Michigan--3 Seniors in top 5

Michigan St.--1 Senior and 3 Juniors

Minnesota--1 Senior and 4 Juniors

Nebraska--1 Senior and 3 Juniors

Northwestern--Same as us.

Ohio State--2 Seniors and 2 Juniors

Penn St.--2 Seniors and 3 Juniors

Purdue--3 Juniors and 2 Freshmen... only team without a Senior

Rutgers--2 Seniors and 2 Juniors

Wisconsin--3 Seniors

The 3 schools whose rosters most compare to ours as far as experience are Maryland, Northwestern and Purdue.  Turgeon has had his system in place for 10 years, Collins for 8 years, and Painter for 16 years. Big difference in regards to having systems and cultures established.

Look, in no way am I happy or satisfied with the results on the court this season. However it is way too premature to run a coach out of the building after 4 years. Really disappointed in how this has become such a pile on and mob mentality here. Posters who vehemently stated how poor the records of Coach K or Wooden were in their first few years, and how they were given a chance to turn things around, are now part of the piling on.  I guess this doesn't surprise me. In this world of instant gratification, and what have you done for me today, this kind of mentality fits perfectly.

I hope the BOT meets with the new AD this weekend and comes to the correct decision to give CAM more time. To at least let him get to the point where he can "get old" much less "stay old". To see what he can do when he has all his players available to him. 

 

 

 

Basically if you don't agree Archie should be fired, I really disagree. I think what you're saying is valid. Not saying it's correct or the right decision, but to act like it's cut and dry is only a fans perspective. He might get fire, might not, still waiting for more confirmation on the rumors, seems like a pretty tightly guarded secret/rumor that is mostly being talked about here or wishful thinking by some. Lots of predictions or rumors haven't panned out in the past couple of years, so I am going to sit back and see what happens.

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Just now, go_iu_bb said:

Completely different situations, as you're fully aware.

So do you think that concussion has hurt Thompson's progress 2 years later? Or would his stating healthy have helped prevent the poor record that season? If neither of those, why bring it up?

Yes on the first...He would have been getting at least some game time and a lot of practice time in those 3 months...And I'm of the mind every game and every practice is valuable in a player's development...

To the second, no...

But that's why I DID bring it up...

I keep hearing injuries are no excuse...yes they are...they're a very valid excuse...if they aren't, then this fanbase should shut up about 75 and 93...

 

 

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1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

You can have all the scholarships you want, but those "bodies" you speak of aren't going to be of the caliber of the injured player in most cases...If Juwan would have been hurt in 2019, could Forrester or Moore have matched his output playing full time? Of course not...And then when they don't get minutes they transfer to get more playing time...

When Brunk got hurt, it was very late in the preseason...IIRC someone said he was the leading scorer in the scrimmage game...Archie had his rotation all mapped out by then...another "body" wasn't going to help...

I hated some of the bodies that Crean stuck us with...Priller, April, Jobe, Jurkin, Gelon...They weren't B1G caliber players and were never going to be...Kids that have B1G talent aren't coming to sit on the bench and watch for 40 minutes...

2 open scholarships on an injury prone team.  Race stepped in and filled the Brunk role.  You would be looking for a guy that could step in and hold the line for just a few minutes a game to give Race and Trayce breathers.

Seems like every other program is able to find guys that are willing to sit and develop in that manner.  Wisconsin has made it an art form.  

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6 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

One last quibble, I think you are underestimating what Watford did on the boards.  He was good for 6 a game, which is what Race is averaging at the moment as well.

Yeah, that's fair on Watford. I'm assuming a bit of an uptick on Race's numbers, though, as he certainly seems like a guy willing to put in the work to improve. 

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54 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Yep, even though I said I was done with this place, I clearly am as addicted as the rest of you. Go ahead with all the LOLs, and whatever disparaging remarks you wanna make, but I can't let this thread go on without responding.

Couple of things before I get to my main point....Yes, I was very vocally anti-Crean on this board. Didn't happen after year 4 though. Nine years is clearly a fairer time frame to evaluate a coach than four.

Been mentioned multiple times that CAM's recruiting is one of the main issues, especially the lack of bigs. IIRC, until Brunk's surgery, we had 3 kids to play inside. The loss of Joey, right before the season and too late to add another kid, is vastly underestimated by this fanbase. Not that he was a step-back shooter, but he was an inside presence that would have taken enormous pressure off of TJD and Race. They would not have had to guard a Cockburn or Garza or Dickinson or Williams or Johnson, on their own. And btw, they were outsized by each of the players I just mentioned, both in height and bulk. If nothing else, Joey was 5 more fouls to give, minutes to spare the other two, chances to keep them out of foul trouble.

My main point...Archie vowed to get old and stay old. He does not yet have one of his recruits who has attained his senior season yet. So many on here have talked about how important experience is in the college game...let's compare.

My very unscientific study looked at every B1G roster and the 5 kids on each team that played the most average minutes per game. Not the end all/ be all for evaluations, but does show what kind of experience was on the court most for each team.

IU's top 5 includes 1 Senior, 2 Juniors ( one of which is Race who sat out a season) and two Sophomores. The lone SR. was wildly erratic, but did improve during his time in Bloomington, and became a decent shooter. The JR. point guard was heralded by this board when he arrived, but has been a disappointment.

In comparison--

Illinois-2 Seniors and a Junior in top 5

Iowa--2 Seniors and 2 Juniors

Maryland--exactly like us, 1 Senior, 2 Juniors and 2 Sophomores

Michigan--3 Seniors in top 5

Michigan St.--1 Senior and 3 Juniors

Minnesota--1 Senior and 4 Juniors

Nebraska--1 Senior and 3 Juniors

Northwestern--Same as us.

Ohio State--2 Seniors and 2 Juniors

Penn St.--2 Seniors and 3 Juniors

Purdue--3 Juniors and 2 Freshmen... only team without a Senior

Rutgers--2 Seniors and 2 Juniors

Wisconsin--3 Seniors

The 3 schools whose rosters most compare to ours as far as experience are Maryland, Northwestern and Purdue.  Turgeon has had his system in place for 10 years, Collins for 8 years, and Painter for 16 years. Big difference in regards to having systems and cultures established.

Look, in no way am I happy or satisfied with the results on the court this season. However it is way too premature to run a coach out of the building after 4 years. Really disappointed in how this has become such a pile on and mob mentality here. Posters who vehemently stated how poor the records of Coach K or Wooden were in their first few years, and how they were given a chance to turn things around, are now part of the piling on.  I guess this doesn't surprise me. In this world of instant gratification, and what have you done for me today, this kind of mentality fits perfectly.

I hope the BOT meets with the new AD this weekend and comes to the correct decision to give CAM more time. To at least let him get to the point where he can "get old" much less "stay old". To see what he can do when he has all his players available to him. 

 

 

 

I think one of the main grievances with Archie is that he was hired at the same time as Underwood and Holtmann and they have had much more success than him and it didn't take four years.  Archie had a two year head start on Juwan Howard, and that program is light years ahead of us.

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2 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

2 open scholarships on an injury prone team.  Race stepped in and filled the Brunk role.  You would be looking for a guy that could step in and hold the line for just a few minutes a game to give Race and Trayce breathers.

Seems like every other program is able to find guys that are willing to sit and develop in that manner.  Wisconsin has made it an art form.  

Wisconsin mainly recruits out of the RSCI top 100 and liberally uses the redshirt...So does Purdue...

The recruiting whining alone makes that impossible here...You're telling me this fan base who gets apoplectic over everything the Archie and the program does would be excited about getting Mr RSCI 250, red shirting him, and having him contribute when he's 24? 

 

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3 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Yes on the first...He would have been getting at least some game time and a lot of practice time in those 3 months...And I'm of the mind every game and every practice is valuable in a player's development...

To the second, no...

But that's why I DID bring it up...

I keep hearing injuries are no excuse...yes they are...they're a very valid excuse...if they aren't, then this fanbase should shut up about 75 and 93...

 

 

There's a huge gap between all injuries are a valid excuse and no injuries are.

Thompson had a year of practice before playing. He was still playing poorly his first season when he got injured and only missed a few months then was able to fully practice again. Yet you think this is still affecting him 2 years later and is comparable to the injuries to May and Henderson. That's amazing. I 100% disagree with you on this so I'm not going to waste any more time talking about it. 

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1 minute ago, go_iu_bb said:

There's a huge gap between all injuries are a valid excuse and no injuries are.

Thompson had a year of practice before playing. He was still playing poorly his first season when he got injured and only missed a few months then was able to fully practice again. Yet you think this is still affecting him 2 years later and is comparable to the injuries to May and Henderson. That's amazing. I 100% disagree with you on this so I'm not going to waste any more time talking about it. 

Wait, wait, wait...You're mixing 2 different arguments...

As the injuries go, I wasn't necessarily talking about Race's past injuries, but more about Brunk and Armaan this year...

Race was injured after the 2nd game of his freshman year, and missed the bevy of the season...practices included...

Race was brought into the discussion when you said, "Race Thompson is Miller's 1st recruit and this is his 4th season. So this isn't true even though Thompson is only a junior as far as eligibility." I was just pointing out that in that 4 year stretch, he had an important period of his development taken away...

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53 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Welcome back.

Just to address a few of your points.

1.  On injuries impacting the team, we have had that almost every year Miller has been here and he still leaves scholarships open.  Not having another body if Brunk, Race, or TJD went down is his fault.  He has held a scholarship open every year IIRC.

2.  Whenever one of the coaches who took time to get things going is brought up, you can clearly see a line of improvement.  You almost always see that pay off in the 4th year as their players beging to take over the program.  This is turning into one of the worst years that Miller has had here.  When looking at the conference record (one of the better gauges of performance IMO because it is generally the same opponents from year to year) he has been on a decline as he brings more of his players into the program.

3.  As far as instant gratification, it has been 4 years.  You and I have a completely different definition of instant.

Finally, if we were going to keep him around, I think most would feel better about it if we were seeing any signs of hope that things will be better.  The defense took a step back.  The offense has never materialized.  We have one transfer and one new big guy coming.  Which constitutes one of the worst ranked classes in our conference.  There is no guarantee that the team's "best" player has any intention of returning.  There was a reason you didn't point to anything positive we have going on with our team that you could point to as a reason to keep him on board.  "We get older" is all you had.  That in and of itself speaks to being on the wrong path.

You are free to feel he should be back.  I just feel that, other than the buyout, he hasn't done anything on the court to warrant optimism that another year is going to be appreciably better.  And if he gets another year, it is going to have to be MUCH, MUCH better for him to quiet his skeptics.

One last thing, this is probably the most positive forum for Indiana basketball that I have come across.  I think the negativity you are seeing here is a reflection of the damage Miller did to his reputation with the fanbase this year.  It took 4 years of poor basketball for some to come to that conclusion, for what it's worth I think accusing people like IUScott (you did not name him specifically but he is one guy that was preaching patience for years) of being "instant gratification" is extremely disingenuous on your part.  

I always said a coach needs 4 years before judging and this is the end of year 4.  So to me it is time to judge to see if he should keep his job and to me he has proven that he is not the right guy to coach here.

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11 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Wait, wait, wait...You're mixing 2 different arguments...

As the injuries go, I wasn't necessarily talking about Race's past injuries, but more about Brunk and Armaan this year...

Race was injured after the 2nd game of his freshman year, and missed the bevy of the season...practices included...

Race was brought into the discussion when you said, "Race Thompson is Miller's 1st recruit and this is his 4th season. So this isn't true even though Thompson is only a junior as far as eligibility." I was just pointing out that in that 4 year stretch, he had an important period of his development taken away...

Then you're the one getting mixed up arguments. I have only been talking about Thompson.

Yes, I brought him up because Steuben tried to claim that none of Miller's recruits are seniors. Thompson is a senior academically and is a Miller recruit. 

You then chimed in about his injury so that's what I've been responding to you about. That should've been clear to you.

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19 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

I'm not saying Archie isn't without fault...but 7 bunnies and 3 more free throws per game might have a big difference on the annual report card in the W/L department. 

Only 10 more made shots (bunnies and free throws) a game and we have a different W/L? Only 17 points! Sorry I know what you’re saying but found it funny. So basically we are 1990’s Northwestern. All they needed was an additional 17 points a game. 

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37 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I keep hearing injuries are no excuse...yes they are...they're a very valid excuse...if they aren't, then this fanbase should shut up about 75 and 93...

That was my statement...Race is not mentioned in that sentence...
I'll just ask, do you think the injuries to Joey and Armaan have impacted our season?

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8 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said:

if Archie is back, we really think he'll ditch the packline D?  i would doubt it.  most college coaches don't just abandon their defensive philosophy.  i also still don't see it as our big problem.  our defense isn't bad.  i venture to say we should worry more about our offense.  

Our defense is one of the worst in the conference. 

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I know people have been saying that if Archie stays then look what type of roster we could have, but I don’t fully believe players would want to leave just because we don’t have Archie. Let’s think about how good this roster could be if coached by a better staff who hasn’t shown results we’ve seen the past 4 years with kids who we think are more talented than they’ve been able to display. I’m not gonna say the roster will look completely the same if we don’t have Archie next year, but I could see kids staying with a new staff. I guess we’ll just have to find out. 

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2 hours ago, AxnJxn said:

I'm just going to throw this out there ... some heads will likely explode, though.

2012-13 roster vs. potential 2021-22 roster

Yogi - Lander

Hulls - Franklin

VO - Hunter

Watford - Race

Zeller - TJD

Pretty big edge to VO and Yogi, but those other 3 spots are arguably pretty even, and the bench isn't too bad, either - Brunk, Rob, Leal, Geronimo, Trey, Stewart, Duncomb.

I'm just saying that without a home run hire, I'd like to see what CAM does with that before making a change. 

disagree that any of those comparisons are close.

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4 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

That was my statement...Race is not mentioned in that sentence...
I'll just ask, do you think the injuries to Joey and Armaan have impacted our season?

Instead of being 12-13 we might be 13-12 or 14-11 and still on the tournament bubble.  After 4 years just being on the bubble is not good enough for IU.  Instead of finishing 10th or 11th in the conference we might be 8th or 9th which after 4 years still not good enough.

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1 hour ago, go_iu_bb said:

Yep. I was initially gong to say that Franklin is better, mostly because of his defense, but remembered that Hulls had a lot of intangibles like leadership. Plus, Hulls was a bit better of a shooter although Franklin isn't too far from Hulls there this season.

franklin is not a Hulls type shooter

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3 minutes ago, IUrocker said:

I know people have been saying that if Archie stays then look what type of roster we could have, but I don’t fully believe players would want to leave just because we don’t have Archie. Let’s think about how good this roster could be if coached by a better staff who hasn’t shown results we’ve seen the past 4 years with kids who we think are more talented than they’ve been able to display. I’m not gonna say the roster will look completely the same if we don’t have Archie next year, but I could see kids staying with a new staff. I guess we’ll just have to find out. 

I am more worried with transfers if Archie comes back than if he left.

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7 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

That was my statement...Race is not mentioned in that sentence...
I'll just ask, do you think the injuries to Joey and Armaan have impacted our season?

Brunk doesn’t make us a tournament team and a heathy Armaan doesn’t change the outcome vs Michigan, Michigan State, and the loss coming this weekend to Purdue. Still miss the tournament with both healthy IMO. 

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6 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Instead of being 12-13 we might be 13-12 or 14-11 and still on the tournament bubble.  After 4 years just being on the bubble is not good enough for IU.  Instead of finishing 10th or 11th in the conference we might be 8th or 9th which after 4 years still not good enough.

Scott, I understand that...But that razor thin line we're walking in some of these games are going to be the difference between going to the tournament and not going...And if we had those wins and were solidly in, even at a 9 or 10 seed, the fire Archie drumbeat wouldn't be as loud...

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