It’s time... Fire Archie Miller

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Funny how injuries to Henderson, Coverdale, May, Kitchel and Landon Turner are brought up in the discussions on what might have been, but yet injuries over the last few years aren't important.

Yes, isn't it?

As I said in another thread, according to some, we should be contending for a B1G championship with 4 student managers and the Mop Lady...

[IU Scott]

7 minutes ago, BGleas said:

They just posted the senior speeches on the IU Basketball Facebook Page. 

To me, this is one of my bigger issues with the program right now, the lack of energy and enthusiasm, and IMO the senior speeches are a microcosm of that. 

Both Durham and Cooper Bybee barely even mentioned Archie. Durham said his name once and then spent more time thanking Clif Marshall. 

Bybee didn't even say Archie's name, but gave a personal thank you to the coach of the school he transfered from. 

Same as the last 3 years, there just seems to be something off here. Remember Juwan Morgan's speech? It was almost awkward, he talked more about Devonte Green convincing him not to transfer than anything else and barely mentioned Archie. This is the coach who gave him the stage to become an NBA player. 

It seems like the lack of effort at times, and the lackof enthusiasm and passion can be tied to the apparent lack of relationships that exist between the players and the staff, Archie in particular. 

 

I have notice that as well but did not think anything about it the first time.  Now 4 years in and the layers still don't mention him is not a good sign of the team buying into Archie.

Also I have noticed the players doing interviews are so quite and don't say much.  It is always short answers and they just look uncomfortable doing them.  To me when your players are quite that is not a good sign because they won't talk on the court either.  it also shows signs of lack of leadership because leaders are not quite.

I know it is just hearsay but on another site saying that a friend of the trainer who trained RP and Franklin said those two don't care for Archie.  Listening to Kent sterling yesterday he said he was in Cook Hall with the sports information director.  Archie walked by and the SID wanted Archie to come meet Kent but Archie went right by without saying a word.

 

[Steubenhoosier]

1 hour ago, Feathery said:

 

 

34 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

We would see signs by now. I will totally concede it is POSSIBLE Archie would still pan out if given another few years. But the OVERWHELMING evidence points to the contrary. 
 

One of the many factors you’re not including is the mental. Crean had the program consistently trending UP by the time they got to 2012-13. The players were behind him, experienced, hungry and VERY confident. You don’t “create” all that by kicking the can another year from a complete dumpster fire of a three year stretch. 
 

This team and program is so dysfunctional and NOT unified...being a team that can win things requires some talent at a minimum, but it also requires things this team is so far from...it can’t be built in a single off season. This program has no culture for crying out loud. For all the reasons I couldn’t stand Crean and I’m glad he’s gone, he at least established a culture. Good lord we are garbage. And I LIKE Archie. 🤨🤷🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️

Was going to post this in the "What would I ask Archie" thread, but it fits right here.

It's amazing how many random posters seem to have a better finger on the pulse, the dynamics and the inner workings of this team than the head coach.

[mchenry34]

10 minutes ago, BGleas said:

They just posted the senior speeches on the IU Basketball Facebook Page. 

To me, this is one of my bigger issues with the program right now, the lack of energy and enthusiasm, and IMO the senior speeches are a microcosm of that. 

Both Durham and Cooper Bybee barely even mentioned Archie. Durham said his name once and then spent more time thanking Clif Marshall. 

Bybee didn't even say Archie's name, but gave a personal thank you to the coach of the school he transfered from. 

Same as the last 3 years, there just seems to be something off here. Remember Juwan Morgan's speech? It was almost awkward, he talked more about Devonte Green convincing him not to transfer than anything else and barely mentioned Archie. This is the coach who gave him the stage to become an NBA player. 

It seems like the lack of effort at times, and the lackof enthusiasm and passion can be tied to the apparent lack of relationships that exist between the players and the staff, Archie in particular. 

 

In my opinion this has been a huge issue...I think that some of it is kind of inherited from the fact that the transition didn't go that well, and I think some of it is manifest by the losing, but some of it is that Archie seems to have trouble communicating positive things with as much force as the negative....It must have been serious whiplash for the program going from Crean to Archie in all ways...personality, system, results...it has taken its toll...

It's a reminder to us not to be reactionary in our next coaching search. I think one of the reasons that they honed in on Archie is that his approach was the opposite of Crean...We don't need the opposite of anyone. We need the best fit for the job. We need the best basketball mind we can get. We shouldn't search out a guy who emphasizes threes just because Archie doesn't. We shouldn't search out a bubbly personality just because Archie isn't. We should make the best hire possible and then let them have true freedom when it comes to how to handle the transition...

[IU Scott]

6 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

not what you have said at all when it comes to Coach K and Wooden, among others.

I said it took them 4 years to turn it around so yes the first few years I said that.  This is the end of the 4th year and it is time to judge and he has proven he is not the right guy.

[IU Scott]

7 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

in your opinion

Just like it is your opinion that they would make a difference

[IU Scott]

7 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Yes, isn't it?

As I said in another thread, according to some, we should be contending for a B1G championship with 4 student managers and the Mop Lady...

We should be contending after 4 years but we are struggling to even make the tournament after year 4

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

 

Was going to post this in the "What would I ask Archie" thread, but it fits right here.

It's amazing how many random posters seem to have a better finger on the pulse, the dynamics and the inner workings of this team than the head coach.

I see most in the fan base, former players, local and national media has come to the conclusion Archie is not getting the job done.  I have been right their with you the first 3 years but after the loss at home to NW this year I finally saw that Archie is not the right coach to be here.  After 4 years are roster should be set and contending to be in the top 4 of the big ten.  Right now just hoping to make the tournament is unacceptable at IU as well as finishing 10th or 11th in the conference.

[IUFLA]

7 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

We should be contending after 4 years but we are struggling to even make the tournament after year 4

I understand...but in my estimation, there are reasons for that...some call them excuses, but whatever...

I've said this over and over, but it falls on deaf ears...

If we have everyone back save Al next year, and we're still struggling to finish .500 in the conference next year, let the search begin...we're no worse off than we are now...of course, there's always the possibility we have a good/great year...

In my mind, and this is simply my opinion, we'll be setting IU basketball back another 5 years if we go with more than a few of the names mentioned over in the other thread...the majority of them as a matter of fact...

[TheWatShot]

I've never seen a fanbase that brought up past injuries to players to excuse their current performance, or the team's performance, as much as ours does. "Rob had a concussion two years ago, maybe that's why he still isn't right?" "Race had that bad injury awhile back, he's probably still recovering from it." Injuries are unfortunate, but part of the game. We're not struggling because dudes got hurt 2 years ago. We're struggling because we lack depth, and some of these guys just weren't that good to begin with. 

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I understand...but in my estimation, there are reasons for that...some call them excuses, but whatever...

I've said this over and over, but it falls on deaf ears...

If we have everyone back save Al next year, and we're still struggling to finish .500 in the conference next year, let the search begin...we're no worse off than we are now...of course, there's always the possibility we have a good/great year...

In my mind, and this is simply my opinion, we'll be setting IU basketball back another 5 years if we go with more than a few of the names mentioned over in the other thread...the majority of them as a matter of fact...

I understand and I hear what you are saying but a lot of people disagree with your view point.  We think in year 4 you should have your roster set up to with stand an injury or two and not have a huge drop off.  most teams have had nagging injuries like Franklin and can over come them.  Iowa has had plenty of injuries to some key players and they are still winning.

I also disagree if we wait another year I think it will make it even worse if we have a bad year.  One it will kill any chances of getting good players from the 2022 class since Archie will be on a even hotter seat.  Our candidates next year will be no different than this year so why wait to see if Archie can turn it around.  I think the last 4 years has shown that each year the season is getting worse rather than better.

[Steubenhoosier]

3 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

I've never seen a fanbase that brought up past injuries to players to excuse their current performance, or the team's performance, as much as ours does. "Rob had a concussion two years ago, maybe that's why he still isn't right?" "Race had that bad injury awhile back, he's probably still recovering from it." Injuries are unfortunate, but part of the game. We're not struggling because dudes got hurt 2 years ago. We're struggling because we lack depth, and some of these guys just weren't that good to begin with. 

If you are referring to me, I brought up Brunk, and Aarman as the two pertinent injuries impacting this year’s team.

In saying that, neither you nor I can know the effects of a concussion on someone. Research suggests that some people can have long lasting issues from concussions that occurred in the past 

[IU Scott]

Even the first few years when I was defending Archie i always thought something was just off when watching this team.  I couldn't put my finger on it but it was there but it is hard to describe.  it just doesn't look like the players and coaches connect and there is a disconnect somewhere.  Others such as BGleas has brought up the same thing and it just appears that disconnect is there.  Like most knows I watch a lot of college basketball games and watching other teams i just see a difference than when I watch us play and something is different.

Like some has said that it doesn't look good when at senior night that the players don't mention Archie that much and thank others instead of the HC.  I think Morgan talked about Crean and didn't say much about Archie at all

[Air Ball]

2 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Welcome back.

Just to address a few of your points.

1.  On injuries impacting the team, we have had that almost every year Miller has been here and he still leaves scholarships open.  Not having another body if Brunk, Race, or TJD went down is his fault.  He has held a scholarship open every year IIRC.

2.  Whenever one of the coaches who took time to get things going is brought up, you can clearly see a line of improvement.  You almost always see that pay off in the 4th year as their players beging to take over the program.  This is turning into one of the worst years that Miller has had here.  When looking at the conference record (one of the better gauges of performance IMO because it is generally the same opponents from year to year) he has been on a decline as he brings more of his players into the program.

3.  As far as instant gratification, it has been 4 years.  You and I have a completely different definition of instant.

Finally, if we were going to keep him around, I think most would feel better about it if we were seeing any signs of hope that things will be better.  The defense took a step back.  The offense has never materialized.  We have one transfer and one new big guy coming.  Which constitutes one of the worst ranked classes in our conference.  There is no guarantee that the team's "best" player has any intention of returning.  There was a reason you didn't point to anything positive we have going on with our team that you could point to as a reason to keep him on board.  "We get older" is all you had.  That in and of itself speaks to being on the wrong path.

You are free to feel he should be back.  I just feel that, other than the buyout, he hasn't done anything on the court to warrant optimism that another year is going to be appreciably better.  And if he gets another year, it is going to have to be MUCH, MUCH better for him to quiet his skeptics.

One last thing, this is probably the most positive forum for Indiana basketball that I have come across.  I think the negativity you are seeing here is a reflection of the damage Miller did to his reputation with the fanbase this year.  It took 4 years of poor basketball for some to come to that conclusion, for what it's worth I think accusing people like IUScott (you did not name him specifically but he is one guy that was preaching patience for years) of being "instant gratification" is extremely disingenuous on your part.  

Poster said Miller did damage to his reputation this year.  Strongly disagree.  Been watching Archie Miller's teams for years, including at Dayton.  I know and others who are in the know know...it is about the guards.

Unfortunately Rob and Al have not gotten going consistently this season...

If fans cannot see that then that is telling.  It then can be blamed on development.  Of Rob?  Of Al? Yeah, right.

He really needs that PG to be among the top in the B1G.  It can be blamed on recruiting.  Maybe...

But damage his reputation.  No.  

Shooting...yeah, they suck.  TJD doesn't hustle on every play.  Heck, Jordie Hulls didn't hit every shot.  Just most of them.  And his defense wasn't the best.  And TJD doesn't really use both hands to finish.  So what?

The Big Ten is the best I can remember except for RMK's early years.  They were all tough.

Archie Miller is a very good coach.  Indiana should give him enough time.  He really didn't get a full 4 years of his players.  Not yet.

Damaged his reputation.  Yeah, right.

 

[HoosierMatty]

Even if money were the only concern of the administration it still doesn't make sense to keep Archie another year. It would be a pointless lame duck year where we lose more money and get further behind in recruiting. I seriously doubt Archie would want to hang around for year and it just hurts his ability to get another job. So I feel pretty confident that they will negotiate a mutual agreement. I would be surprised if Archie is back another year.

[8Bucks]

8 hours ago, MrsStoller said:

Welcome to the board!  

Thanks. I was here during the last search maybe as bucks donuts. Could not remember so I started anew 

so many familiar names here

[BADGERVOL]

22 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I understand...but in my estimation, there are reasons for that...some call them excuses, but whatever...

I've said this over and over, but it falls on deaf ears...

If we have everyone back save Al next year, and we're still struggling to finish .500 in the conference next year, let the search begin...we're no worse off than we are now...of course, there's always the possibility we have a good/great year...

In my mind, and this is simply my opinion, we'll be setting IU basketball back another 5 years if we go with more than a few of the names mentioned over in the other thread...the majority of them as a matter of fact...

1.) you’re lowering the bar so much saying “next year is the year we should judge” and “if we are struggling to be .500 THEN let him go??” So if he’s 5 games over .500 I’m his FIFTH year at Indiana with all his own players then we’re good to go??

2.) Why is it everyone assumes when you hire a new coach you’ve thrown away another 4-5 years of crap basketball? That once again, shows our lower standards. It’s not the “norm” for a coach who’s a good coach to take over a program and have to start from absolutely scratch and suck for 2-3 years before he can field a decent team. (Save maybe Crean in what he walked into).

Folks the coach didn’t make it happen. Hire again. If the next guy is good he’ll show little glimpses very soon and put it ALL together and be firing on all cylinders by the time he has a full roster of his own players. That’s a NORMAL level of expectation for a coach.

[dgambill]

If you don’t believe in Archie for the long haul then this is the year to make the change. We have only one incoming freshman. So we aren’t losing a big class. Two...the transfer portal will be bigger than in any year ever and it will be easier to reload what we inevitably will lose. Third you want to reopen the Hall next year to excitement and a full house...not having people only half invested. It’s a post Covid reboot for IU athletics and people that have been sitting out need a reason to come back. Finally you would just be delaying the inevitable. Rip the band aid off.

If you believe in him then you give him another year but have to understand you could lose more of your fan base.

[IUCrazy2]

12 minutes ago, Air Ball said:

Poster said Miller did damage to his reputation this year.  Strongly disagree.  Been watching Archie Miller's teams for years, including at Dayton.  I know and others who are in the know know...it is about the guards.

Unfortunately Rob and Al have not gotten going consistently this season...

If fans cannot see that then that is telling.  It then can be blamed on development.  Of Rob?  Of Al? Yeah, right.

He really needs that PG to be among the top in the B1G.  It can be blamed on recruiting.  Maybe...

But damage his reputation.  No.  

Shooting...yeah, they suck.  TJD doesn't hustle on every play.  Heck, Jordie Hulls didn't hit every shot.  Just most of them.  And his defense wasn't the best.  And TJD doesn't really use both hands to finish.  So what?

The Big Ten is the best I can remember except for RMK's early years.  They were all tough.

Archie Miller is a very good coach.  Indiana should give him enough time.  He really didn't get a full 4 years of his players.  Not yet.

Damaged his reputation.  Yeah, right.

 

Not going to go over all your stuff again because you basically rehashed what people defending Miller have already said and this is getting to be tedious.

However, I will defend myself by saying you are cherry picking the "damaged reputation" part.  Who did I say he damaged it with?  And when you add in those 3 words following that comment, you cannot argue that point.  Look around.

[dbmhoosier]

17 minutes ago, Air Ball said:

Poster said Miller did damage to his reputation this year.  Strongly disagree.  Been watching Archie Miller's teams for years, including at Dayton.  I know and others who are in the know know...it is about the guards.

Unfortunately Rob and Al have not gotten going consistently this season...

If fans cannot see that then that is telling.  It then can be blamed on development.  Of Rob?  Of Al? Yeah, right.

He really needs that PG to be among the top in the B1G.  It can be blamed on recruiting.  Maybe...

But damage his reputation.  No.  

Shooting...yeah, they suck.  TJD doesn't hustle on every play.  Heck, Jordie Hulls didn't hit every shot.  Just most of them.  And his defense wasn't the best.  And TJD doesn't really use both hands to finish.  So what?

The Big Ten is the best I can remember except for RMK's early years.  They were all tough.

Archie Miller is a very good coach.  Indiana should give him enough time.  He really didn't get a full 4 years of his players.  Not yet.

Damaged his reputation.  Yeah, right.

 

You might actually have a point of giving him another year if next season looked promising.   It doesn't.  Total dumpster fire from my viewpoint.  Trayce is definitely gone, we have no impact recruits, and multiple transfers seems likely.  It will be a bloodbath if he comes back.  Guaranteed. 

[Artesian_86]

Listening to JMV 1070 the fan......He just said he feels IU’s going for an IU guy should Archie go. He said he wouldn’t be surprised if they pick Alford or Fife....

[IU Scott]

First off I don't think Archie is a terrible coach but he just doesn't fit here.  I think he has had trouble relating to the players of today because with his physical limitations he had to work extra hard.  Also I think the players he had at Dayton he could relate better to because most of them probably had a chip on their shoulders.  A lot of those players probably felt they could play up a level but was over looked so they went out to prove others wrong like Archie had to do.  Here at IU he probably had the two most talented player he has ever coached in Romeo and TJD.  The problem with them is that the game probably came way easier for them and they think they can just get by on talent alone and not hard work.  Also in the back of their minds that their NBA status is more important that helping the team succeed.

I have seen so many times where after a game where they are filming a locker room and the coach and the players are celebrating together.  I have seen coaches jumping up and down spraying water on each other.  I have seen older coaches dancing in a circle while the players are standing around them.  I have not one time saw Archie and his players celebrate like that after a win.  Last night Scott Drew after the game while still on the court jumped into the arms of one his players.

I think if it was just about the X and O's Archie would be fine but it is everything else that surrounds coaching at IU that he is having problems with.

[IUFLA]

26 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I understand and I hear what you are saying but a lot of people disagree with your view point. 

I'd never change my view or opinion based on a lot of people disagreeing with me. 

29 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Our candidates next year will be no different than this year so why wait to see if Archie can turn it around.

And none of the realistic ones that I see will have IU making a 1 or 2 year turnaround.

This is what Dolson said upon ascending to the AD job...

"To me I’ve been impressed with Archie with that because he doesn’t get too high, he doesn’t get too low. He really sticks to his plan. I think if you want to really be a consistent program, have consistent success, you need to have a consistent vision and work that plan. I’m really, really confident in that. That’s the thing that impressed me about Archie."

"I  feel that we’re definitely making the right progress, the right steps in multiple ways. I feel like in building the program, as I mentioned earlier, I think Archie has a great master plan. I like the way he sticks to his plan, makes certain that he has conviction there, is not too high, too low. I feel that coming together."

That doesn't sound to me like a guy who is going to be swayed by people with a different opinion...

[IU Scott]

7 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

Listening to JMV 1070 the fan......He just said he feels IU’s going for an IU guy should Archie go. He said he wouldn’t be surprised if they pick Alford or Fife....

Not my first choice but I do think we need to get back the IU culture.  I watch teams like UNC, Duke and UK where you see all of these former players come back and are part of the program.  I really think that helps the program by showing it is a family and you will always be welcomed back.  It just seems like the last 20 years we don't see that many former players coming back to games or talking to the team.  Also if we go that route and it doesn't work then we could put an end to that theory about it needing to be a former player.  I like what AJ is doing with his podcast trying to get former players connected again.  He is trying to get an alumni weekend sometime that includes all players and not just RMK players.

[HoosierMatty]

I think Archie is a good coach and I gave him a chance. But now we are past a point of no return. Some of it was bad luck but it's clear there is a disconnect with him and his players and that's on him. He's not developed anyone where they need to be and he's lost recruiting momentum. It would be really difficult for him to turn it around. I hate the situation for him and his family but it's time now to make a change. I just hope they take the time to interview multiple people and give it to someone that gets this job and wants it. Whether that's a big name or an up and comer.