It’s time... Fire Archie Miller

[Threedom]

4 minutes ago, IUJoe said:

I’m new at posting here, but I thought I’d throw in my 2 cents, not for the sake of any argument, but just for another perspective.

Before this season, I was mainly on the side of “give Archie more time.”  I thought he needed 4 years, and I thought calls to fire him before that were premature.  Other very successful coaches have needed 3-4 years to turn things around.  And I thought some of the things I saw posted in the past couple years, particularly on one other site, really put IU and the fanbase in a poor light.

This season, though, Archie lost me.  I started losing hope after the home loss to Northwestern, and I have seen little since then that helps me regain any hope.  I’m a numbers guy, and the numbers aren’t good.  That being said, if it were just numbers alone that were poor, I might be inclined to give Archie another year.  It’s when I go beyond the numbers that I lose any hope he can get this turned around.

Two words I hear Archie say a lot are “confidence” and “togetherness.”  Archie’s teams have shown very little of either, particularly in the second half of seasons, in all 4 of his years.  He has often admitted that in press conferences.  Many times, in all 4 years, he has said “we lack confidence, and that affects our togetherness.” 

In year 1 or year 2, that may be understandable and excusable, and he was trying to coach players he didn’t recruit to a system they didn’t commit to, and blend them with players he did recruit.  Given the circumstances, maybe even a little still in year 3.  But it’s no longer understandable and excusable.  The team still lacks anything resembling confidence and togetherness.  As a result, the team rarely plays with enough passion and intensity to win at a level we all expect.  When it happened in year 1 and year 2, perhaps the blame was on some of the players.  When it’s happened all 4 years, the buck stops with the coach.

At the end of the day, a coach’s #1 mission is to blend the players into a cohesive unit that plays together, with the whole being greater than the some of the parts.  Whether it’s through recruiting or coaching tactics or both, Archie has clearly failed at the #1 mission of coaching, for 4 consecutive years.  He continues to fail at it even though he now has a team full of players who have played for no other college coach, leaving little to no hope it’s ever going to improve.  And that’s ultimately why I believe we have reached a point that a change must be made.

Of course, that begs the question of who to hire.  In my view, if IU wants to be a blue-blood program, now is the time it needs to act like one.  IU needs to identify who the grand slam hires are, and decide it’s going to go get one of them.  I disagree with those who say Indiana is no longer a top job.  Everything is still in place to win big.  IU just needs a coach that can effectively take advantage of all of it.  It requires more than a one-dimensional person.  It requires coaching ability, recruiting chops, and perhaps most importantly, the personality to thrive in a bright spotlight.

The 5 or 6 names I’d throw out there, I’m sure a lot of people would say about most of them, “he won’t come here.”  But I think Dolson needs to go after them with a blank check and a promise of full support until they file a restraining order against him.  We don’t need them all to say yes.  We only need one of them.  At this point, we desperately need one of them.

Well...as much as I hate reading more than a sentence or two, this was very well done!  And spot on!  Great post 

[eddy4iu]

3 hours ago, Hippopotamo said:

In this hypothetical timeline, why wouldn’t he just stay at MSU and wait for Izzo to retire?

Dwayne Stephens?

[IUFLA]

8 minutes ago, IUJoe said:

I’m new at posting here, but I thought I’d throw in my 2 cents, not for the sake of any argument, but just for another perspective.

Before this season, I was mainly on the side of “give Archie more time.”  I thought he needed 4 years, and I thought calls to fire him before that were premature.  Other very successful coaches have needed 3-4 years to turn things around.  And I thought some of the things I saw posted in the past couple years, particularly on one other site, really put IU and the fanbase in a poor light.

This season, though, Archie lost me.  I started losing hope after the home loss to Northwestern, and I have seen little since then that helps me regain any hope.  I’m a numbers guy, and the numbers aren’t good.  That being said, if it were just numbers alone that were poor, I might be inclined to give Archie another year.  It’s when I go beyond the numbers that I lose any hope he can get this turned around.

Two words I hear Archie say a lot are “confidence” and “togetherness.”  Archie’s teams have shown very little of either, particularly in the second half of seasons, in all 4 of his years.  He has often admitted that in press conferences.  Many times, in all 4 years, he has said “we lack confidence, and that affects our togetherness.” 

In year 1 or year 2, that may be understandable and excusable, and he was trying to coach players he didn’t recruit to a system they didn’t commit to, and blend them with players he did recruit.  Given the circumstances, maybe even a little still in year 3.  But it’s no longer understandable and excusable.  The team still lacks anything resembling confidence and togetherness.  As a result, the team rarely plays with enough passion and intensity to win at a level we all expect.  When it happened in year 1 and year 2, perhaps the blame was on some of the players.  When it’s happened all 4 years, the buck stops with the coach.

At the end of the day, a coach’s #1 mission is to blend the players into a cohesive unit that plays together, with the whole being greater than the some of the parts.  Whether it’s through recruiting or coaching tactics or both, Archie has clearly failed at the #1 mission of coaching, for 4 consecutive years.  He continues to fail at it even though he now has a team full of players who have played for no other college coach, leaving little to no hope it’s ever going to improve.  And that’s ultimately why I believe we have reached a point that a change must be made.

Of course, that begs the question of who to hire.  In my view, if IU wants to be a blue-blood program, now is the time it needs to act like one.  IU needs to identify who the grand slam hires are, and decide it’s going to go get one of them.  I disagree with those who say Indiana is no longer a top job.  Everything is still in place to win big.  IU just needs a coach that can effectively take advantage of all of it.  It requires more than a one-dimensional person.  It requires coaching ability, recruiting chops, and perhaps most importantly, the personality to thrive in a bright spotlight.

The 5 or 6 names I’d throw out there, I’m sure a lot of people would say about most of them, “he won’t come here.”  But I think Dolson needs to go after them with a blank check and a promise of full support until they file a restraining order against him.  We don’t need them all to say yes.  We only need one of them.  At this point, we desperately need one of them.

Welcome...

We need a "Like (which I did) but don't agree with" button  

[dbmhoosier]

30 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Illinois kept Grose into his 5th year with as bad or worse results than CAM, and OSU held onto Randy Ayers (I know, going back a ways, but there's no other point of reference) well past his shelf life...

And OSU fired Matta who's resume looked like Wooden or Knight compared to Archie.  Illinois fired Weber who took them to a title game.  What's your point?

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

And OSU fired Matta who's resume looked like Wooden or Knight compared to Archie.  Illinois fired Weber who took them to a title game.  What's your point?

First point would be both were in their jobs more than 4 years...And Matta and OSU mutually agreed that his health issue were affecting team performance...he wasn't "fired."

 

[ledies22]

Tony Bennett, Coach K, Scott Drew, Jay Wright (Hofstra and Nova). 

TB - 5 years

Coach K - 4 years

Scott Drew - 5 to 6 years

Jay Wright - 6 years at hofstra and 4 years at nova (4th year he had Randy Foye and Kyle Lowry)

Some coaches are not afforded the opportunity to be handed over the keys and succeed immediately. What part of IU basketball in years 1 and 2 of CAM did you think this was going to be a quick fix?

 

[IUJoe]

10 minutes ago, Threedom said:

Well...as much as I hate reading more than a sentence or two, this was very well done!  And spot on!  Great post 

Once I got started, I got a little carried away, ha ha.  Thanks for the welcome!

[Billingsley99]

3 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

Tony Bennett, Coach K, Scott Drew, Jay Wright (Hofstra and Nova). 

TB - 5 years

Coach K - 4 years

Scott Drew - 5 to 6 years

Jay Wright - 6 years at hofstra and 4 years at nova (4th year he had Randy Foye and Kyle Lowry)

Some coaches are not afforded the opportunity to be handed over the keys and succeed immediately. What part of IU basketball in years 1 and 2 of CAM did you think this was going to be a quick fix?

 

Do we have to keep revisiting every coach that needed X number of years to do it. For every Jay Wright there are a dozen Jon Groces etc... what have you seen from this program to give you any sense of confidence that we are on the right path. I am not a body language expert but anyone can see that at no point in 4 years has this been a together program. With all those others you listed there were signs that we are on right path just need time. I wanted CAM to be the man just to shut some people up but I have not seen anything remotely close to being on path in year 4 or 5 or 6 or 30 to be quite honest. 

[Hoosier4Life53]

12 minutes ago, IUJoe said:

I’m new at posting here, but I thought I’d throw in my 2 cents, not for the sake of any argument, but just for another perspective.

Before this season, I was mainly on the side of “give Archie more time.”  I thought he needed 4 years, and I thought calls to fire him before that were premature.  Other very successful coaches have needed 3-4 years to turn things around.  And I thought some of the things I saw posted in the past couple years, particularly on one other site, really put IU and the fanbase in a poor light.

This season, though, Archie lost me.  I started losing hope after the home loss to Northwestern, and I have seen little since then that helps me regain any hope.  I’m a numbers guy, and the numbers aren’t good.  That being said, if it were just numbers alone that were poor, I might be inclined to give Archie another year.  It’s when I go beyond the numbers that I lose any hope he can get this turned around.

Two words I hear Archie say a lot are “confidence” and “togetherness.”  Archie’s teams have shown very little of either, particularly in the second half of seasons, in all 4 of his years.  He has often admitted that in press conferences.  Many times, in all 4 years, he has said “we lack confidence, and that affects our togetherness.” 

In year 1 or year 2, that may be understandable and excusable, and he was trying to coach players he didn’t recruit to a system they didn’t commit to, and blend them with players he did recruit.  Given the circumstances, maybe even a little still in year 3.  But it’s no longer understandable and excusable.  The team still lacks anything resembling confidence and togetherness.  As a result, the team rarely plays with enough passion and intensity to win at a level we all expect.  When it happened in year 1 and year 2, perhaps the blame was on some of the players.  When it’s happened all 4 years, the buck stops with the coach.

At the end of the day, a coach’s #1 mission is to blend the players into a cohesive unit that plays together, with the whole being greater than the some of the parts.  Whether it’s through recruiting or coaching tactics or both, Archie has clearly failed at the #1 mission of coaching, for 4 consecutive years.  He continues to fail at it even though he now has a team full of players who have played for no other college coach, leaving little to no hope it’s ever going to improve.  And that’s ultimately why I believe we have reached a point that a change must be made.

Of course, that begs the question of who to hire.  In my view, if IU wants to be a blue-blood program, now is the time it needs to act like one.  IU needs to identify who the grand slam hires are, and decide it’s going to go get one of them.  I disagree with those who say Indiana is no longer a top job.  Everything is still in place to win big.  IU just needs a coach that can effectively take advantage of all of it.  It requires more than a one-dimensional person.  It requires coaching ability, recruiting chops, and perhaps most importantly, the personality to thrive in a bright spotlight.

The 5 or 6 names I’d throw out there, I’m sure a lot of people would say about most of them, “he won’t come here.”  But I think Dolson needs to go after them with a blank check and a promise of full support until they file a restraining order against him.  We don’t need them all to say yes.  We only need one of them.  At this point, we desperately need one of them.

I’m new to the board as well and would like to echo what IUJoe just posted. At the time, I thought Archie was a great hire, but unfortunately the results speak for themselves....it’s time to move on and go for broke with our next coach.
 

Say what you will about RMK, but he had a persona larger than life and that carried over to his players. 
 

Go Hoosiers!

[IUFLA]

17 minutes ago, Hoosier4Life53 said:

I’m new to the board as well and would like to echo what IUJoe just posted. At the time, I thought Archie was a great hire, but unfortunately the results speak for themselves....it’s time to move on and go for broke with our next coach.
 

Say what you will about RMK, but he had a persona larger than life and that carried over to his players. 
 

Go Hoosiers!

Welcome...

 

[ledies22]

20 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Do we have to keep revisiting every coach that needed X number of years to do it. For every Jay Wright there are a dozen Jon Groces etc... what have you seen from this program to give you any sense of confidence that we are on the right path. I am not a body language expert but anyone can see that at no point in 4 years has this been a together program. With all those others you listed there were signs that we are on right path just need time. I wanted CAM to be the man just to shut some people up but I have not seen anything remotely close to being on path in year 4 or 5 or 6 or 30 to be quite honest. 

But you also said you knew this three years ago in another post. My main point was what part of the IU program when Archie was hired did you think this was going to be a quick turn around. 

[Brass Cannon]

52 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Last night my father in law told me that he does not think that CAM could have won the MAC this year with the roster IU has so how in the world could he do it in the BIG. Thinks its one of the worst rosters he has seen at a school that is supposed to be a powerhouse. I could not argue any of it. 

We officially have no basketball rival anymore. NO UK game and you can't call PU a rival, you have to at least be competitive every once in a while. Lets load up on ISU, Ball State, IPFW next year and then maybe we will be ok, oh yeah we did that before and well....

Does your FIL realize Archie controls his own roster?

[IUCrazy2]

23 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

Tony Bennett, Coach K, Scott Drew, Jay Wright (Hofstra and Nova). 

TB - 5 years

Coach K - 4 years

Scott Drew - 5 to 6 years

Jay Wright - 6 years at hofstra and 4 years at nova (4th year he had Randy Foye and Kyle Lowry)

Some coaches are not afforded the opportunity to be handed over the keys and succeed immediately. What part of IU basketball in years 1 and 2 of CAM did you think this was going to be a quick fix?

 

Couple of things, start with Jay Wright, I noticed you mentioned the 6 years at Hofstra along with his year 4.  Is that because he went 24-8 and made the Sweet 16 in that 4th year?  "Well he had Foye and Lowery."  Think he might have had a little to do with how good those guys were?

Scott Drew took over a program where a player literally killed a teammate.  A program that had made the tournament like 4 times in it's history.  He had a worse rebuild than Crean had and he had it at a program that was way worse than what Crean (or Miller) took over.  He was afforded a little more time because I cannot think of any position that would be worse than the situation he walked into.

Coach K was 24-10 and made tournament in year 4.

Tony Bennet made tournament in Year 3 and improved his overall and conference record year over year for those first 4 years.  15, 16, 22, 23 in overall wins and 5, 7, 9, 11 conference wins.  And this is probably the closest to the Miller situation.  The problem Miller has is that he has been regressing, particularly in conference.  When you look at base statistics, we took a step back in year 4.  That is where the difference lies.  The people you mentioned had an upward trajectory over their first 4 years.  Miller's has been downward.

 

[NotIThatLives]

41 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Welcome...

We need a "Like (which I did) but don't agree with" button  

I use the sad button all the time to me it equals sad but true

[Billingsley99]

4 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Does your FIL realize Archie controls his own roster?

Of course he does, he been saying CAM was terrible hire from day 1. He is a big UL guy and even with a down year says TJD only guy on team that could play at UL. he even knows IU is a much bigger deal than UL and still can't field a competitive team

[Brass Cannon]

14 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Of course he does, he been saying CAM was terrible hire from day 1. He is a big UL guy and even with a down year says TJD only guy on team that could play at UL. he even knows IU is a much bigger deal than UL and still can't field a competitive team

Ok gotcha misunderstood what you were meaning to convey 

[Billingsley99]

17 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

But you also said you knew this three years ago in another post. My main point was what part of the IU program when Archie was hired did you think this was going to be a quick turn around. 

Maybe having 2 NBA players on your roster and the fact that CAM inherited a team far from being terrible. One of The big gripes about Crean was no defense. I truly thought that CAM would instill a hard nosed tough as nails team.  Guys going to battle for each other. I thought back then by year 4 we would be a lock to the tourney top 6 in conference and trending in the right way. I will ask what did you see back then to think that where we are today is acceptable?

[MrsStoller]

1 hour ago, IUJoe said:

I’m new at posting here, but I thought I’d throw in my 2 cents, not for the sake of any argument, but just for another perspective.

Before this season, I was mainly on the side of “give Archie more time.”  I thought he needed 4 years, and I thought calls to fire him before that were premature.  Other very successful coaches have needed 3-4 years to turn things around.  And I thought some of the things I saw posted in the past couple years, particularly on one other site, really put IU and the fanbase in a poor light.

This season, though, Archie lost me.  I started losing hope after the home loss to Northwestern, and I have seen little since then that helps me regain any hope.  I’m a numbers guy, and the numbers aren’t good.  That being said, if it were just numbers alone that were poor, I might be inclined to give Archie another year.  It’s when I go beyond the numbers that I lose any hope he can get this turned around.

Two words I hear Archie say a lot are “confidence” and “togetherness.”  Archie’s teams have shown very little of either, particularly in the second half of seasons, in all 4 of his years.  He has often admitted that in press conferences.  Many times, in all 4 years, he has said “we lack confidence, and that affects our togetherness.” 

In year 1 or year 2, that may be understandable and excusable, and he was trying to coach players he didn’t recruit to a system they didn’t commit to, and blend them with players he did recruit.  Given the circumstances, maybe even a little still in year 3.  But it’s no longer understandable and excusable.  The team still lacks anything resembling confidence and togetherness.  As a result, the team rarely plays with enough passion and intensity to win at a level we all expect.  When it happened in year 1 and year 2, perhaps the blame was on some of the players.  When it’s happened all 4 years, the buck stops with the coach.

At the end of the day, a coach’s #1 mission is to blend the players into a cohesive unit that plays together, with the whole being greater than the some of the parts.  Whether it’s through recruiting or coaching tactics or both, Archie has clearly failed at the #1 mission of coaching, for 4 consecutive years.  He continues to fail at it even though he now has a team full of players who have played for no other college coach, leaving little to no hope it’s ever going to improve.  And that’s ultimately why I believe we have reached a point that a change must be made.

Of course, that begs the question of who to hire.  In my view, if IU wants to be a blue-blood program, now is the time it needs to act like one.  IU needs to identify who the grand slam hires are, and decide it’s going to go get one of them.  I disagree with those who say Indiana is no longer a top job.  Everything is still in place to win big.  IU just needs a coach that can effectively take advantage of all of it.  It requires more than a one-dimensional person.  It requires coaching ability, recruiting chops, and perhaps most importantly, the personality to thrive in a bright spotlight.

The 5 or 6 names I’d throw out there, I’m sure a lot of people would say about most of them, “he won’t come here.”  But I think Dolson needs to go after them with a blank check and a promise of full support until they file a restraining order against him.  We don’t need them all to say yes.  We only need one of them.  At this point, we desperately need one of them.

Welcome to Hoosier Sports Nation! Great post

[MrsStoller]

47 minutes ago, Hoosier4Life53 said:

I’m new to the board as well and would like to echo what IUJoe just posted. At the time, I thought Archie was a great hire, but unfortunately the results speak for themselves....it’s time to move on and go for broke with our next coach.
 

Say what you will about RMK, but he had a persona larger than life and that carried over to his players. 
 

Go Hoosiers!

Welcome to Hoosier Sports Nation!

[Inequality]

48 minutes ago, Hoosier4Life53 said:

I’m new to the board as well and would like to echo what IUJoe just posted. At the time, I thought Archie was a great hire, but unfortunately the results speak for themselves....it’s time to move on and go for broke with our next coach.
 

Say what you will about RMK, but he had a persona larger than life and that carried over to his players. 
 

Go Hoosiers!

Welcome to the board

[ledies22]

20 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Couple of things, start with Jay Wright, I noticed you mentioned the 6 years at Hofstra along with his year 4.  Is that because he went 24-8 and made the Sweet 16 in that 4th year?  "Well he had Foye and Lowery."  Think he might have had a little to do with how good those guys were?

Scott Drew took over a program where a player literally killed a teammate.  A program that had made the tournament like 4 times in it's history.  He had a worse rebuild than Crean had and he had it at a program that was way worse than what Crean (or Miller) took over.  He was afforded a little more time because I cannot think of any position that would be worse than the situation he walked into.

Coach K was 24-10 and made tournament in year 4.

Tony Bennet made tournament in Year 3 and improved his overall and conference record year over year for those first 4 years.  15, 16, 22, 23 in overall wins and 5, 7, 9, 11 conference wins.  And this is probably the closest to the Miller situation.  The problem Miller has is that he has been regressing, particularly in conference.  When you look at base statistics, we took a step back in year 4.  That is where the difference lies.  The people you mentioned had an upward trajectory over their first 4 years.  Miller's has been downward.

 

Again, what part the program 4 years ago when CAM was hired did you think this was going to be a quick turn around? 
 

listen. I am all for moving on from CAM, but only for a handful of candidates. I am not for moving on just to move on. If the move is going to be made this year or next, might as well do it this year. 
 

I do believe CAM will be a good coach somewhere. For whatever reason it hasn’t worked out at IU to this point. 

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

Again, what part the program 4 years ago when CAM was hired did you think this was going to be a quick turn around? 
 

listen. I am all for moving on from CAM, but only for a handful of candidates. I am not for moving on just to move on. If the move is going to be made this year or next, might as well do it this year. 
 

I do believe CAM will be a good coach somewhere. For whatever reason it hasn’t worked out at IU to this point. 

You would hope in 4 years we could be a better shooting team and free throw shooting team.  I would hope by year 4 we could at least finished in the top 5 once and make the tournament.  I thought he would have this defense b eone of the better ones in the big ten but that hasn't happened.

[Steubenhoosier]

2 hours ago, Billingsley99 said:

It makes a HUGE difference but we you sit on 2 schollys you have no one to blame for not having available players. The excuse of our bench are all freshmen, well whose fault is that. At PU they have had 4 freshmen named BIg frosh of the week. No excuse to not have guys ready to play

This comment has been made by several people on here as another criticism of CAM. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I see three options when it comes to this:

-He recruits kids to fill scholarships just to fill out the roster, and these kids really don't belong on the roster--think a Priller or a Peter Jurkin-exactly what Crean did.

-He recruits kids who are skilled enough to play to fill the scholarships, but unless the unplanned happens--like this year with injuries, they sit, become discontent and eventually leave--unfortunately because that's how kids think today. APR becomes an issue because they don't stay.--again, a problem Crean left the program with.

-He doesn't fill all available scholarships, keeps a tighter rotation, and plans to have all his kids healthy for the season. What he has done, and it has come back to bite him this year.

The first two, in my opinion, set the stage for problems from the outset. The third only becomes an issue when unlikely occurences happen. No one knew that Brunk was going down right before the season started, leaving a gaping hole in the roster. 

[Billingsley99]

4 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

This comment has been made by several people on here as another criticism of CAM. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I see three options when it comes to this:

-He recruits kids to fill scholarships just to fill out the roster, and these kids really don't belong on the roster--think a Priller or a Peter Jurkin-exactly what Crean did.

-He recruits kids who are skilled enough to play to fill the scholarships, but unless the unplanned happens--like this year with injuries, they sit, become discontent and eventually leave--unfortunately because that's how kids think today. APR becomes an issue because they don't stay.--again, a problem Crean left the program with.

-He doesn't fill all available scholarships, keeps a tighter rotation, and plans to have all his kids healthy for the season. What he has done, and it has come back to bite him this year.

The first two, in my opinion, set the stage for problems from the outset. The third only becomes an issue when unlikely occurences happen. No one knew that Brunk was going down right before the season started, leaving a gaping hole in the roster. 

My copp out answer is that is why you trust a coach enough to pay 3 million a year to figure it out and live with the results that come. 

[ledies22]

32 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Maybe having 2 NBA players on your roster and the fact that CAM inherited a team far from being terrible. One of The big gripes about Crean was no defense. I truly thought that CAM would instill a hard nosed tough as nails team.  Guys going to battle for each other. I thought back then by year 4 we would be a lock to the tourney top 6 in conference and trending in the right way. I will ask what did you see back then to think that where we are today is acceptable?

I would agree with that completely.