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It’s time... Fire Archie Miller


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1 hour ago, HoosierFaithful said:

I always find the "IU administration holding us back!!" as a convenient and lazy excuse for the deeper, very complex reasons for IU not succeeding as much as we want in CBB.

So, in other words, the exact type of commentary you'd expect to see on a message board.  Carry on, my wayward sons.

What do you think it is?

I don't think the administration is the only thing, but I think it definitely plays a part.  Namely in that I don't think they want to play some of the games are former peers (Kansas, UNC, Kentucky) are willing to play in.  Call it being shady, cheating, and also avoiding certain types of personalities to hire...but the administration does play a part.

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That's why i sometimes push back on some of the more negative/borderline nasty comments. Not that there's a ton on this board, but they are there.  Call me soft, call me whatever, but these are r

That's why we have these!

It is the current perspective of where things stand with Archie at IU.  I could write a fan boy piece about patience, and trusting the process midway through his fourth season, but that's not where we

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39 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

With the scholarship and everything that goes with it probably comes to another $40,000.  We as fans only think of the major sports but the money that comes into the NCAA goes to support every sport so the theory that they have all of this money is not true.

1. even at $40k you are capping the value of a person. The point is moot in regards to @HoosierDom's  reply. I don't care if it's 250k, you're still capping the value of a person. And before you say the NBA has salary caps, the athlete can still make as much money as they possibly can in endorsement deals, which is essentially what the NIL allows athletes to do. 

2.  The NCAA will still be making money on athletes and can spread it to other programs. The rule will not change this. The issue is they didn't allow an athlete to make money on themselves, which is just not morally right. 

.....and before you say 'nobody is forcing an athlete to go to college'. Capping the value of a student on an athletic scholarship while while not capping the value of other students on academic scholarships (or any student for that matter) is flat out unfair. It is literally discrimination. 

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44 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

With the scholarship and everything that goes with it probably comes to another $40,000.  We as fans only think of the major sports but the money that comes into the NCAA goes to support every sport so the theory that they have all of this money is not true.

Funny you should bring this up.  Except for the major sports most college athletes are not on full rides.  Those partial scholarships don't go far.   With a full class loads and practice/events a kid has limited part time job options if mom and dad can't help with the tab.  The change will give them a chance to make a few dollars(not talking huge money here but there will be marketing opportunities).

Go Hoosiers!!!

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7 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

1. even at $40k you are capping the value of a person. The point is moot in regards to @HoosierDom's  reply. I don't care if it's 250k, you're still capping the value of a person. And before you say the NBA has salary caps, the athlete can still make as much money as they possibly can in endorsement deals, which is essentially what the NIL allows athletes to do. 

2.  The NCAA will still be making money on athletes and can spread it to other programs. The rule will not change this. The issue is they didn't allow an athlete to make money on themselves, which is just not morally right. 

.....and before you say 'nobody is forcing an athlete to go to college'. Capping the value of a student on an athletic scholarship while while not capping the value of other students on academic scholarships (or any student for that matter) is flat out unfair. It is literally discrimination. 

I think there are a bunch of restrictions placed on athletes that academic scholarship recipients don't have, and probably some placed upon academic recipients that athletes don't have. This is simply not a valid argument. If they don't want the restrictions, go to the G-league, go to school in Germany. Maybe walkon so you aren't on scholarship. 

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34 minutes ago, Indy1987 said:

Funny you should bring this up.  Except for the major sports most college athletes are not on full rides.  Those partial scholarships don't go far.   With a full class loads and practice/events a kid has limited part time job options if mom and dad can't help with the tab.  The change will give them a chance to make a few dollars(not talking huge money here but there will be marketing opportunities).

Go Hoosiers!!!

Exactly.My son played college baseball and graduated in 3 years. Had no time to get a job and now he is working on his doctorate he has even less. We are paying the bill so if he had any opportunity to make some money I would have been very grateful.  Granted he was not a D1 player and I agree that what the athletes get is a big form of compensation but a lot of parents still are paying a lot of money to help support their kids. 

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1 hour ago, MSHoosier said:

I think there are a bunch of restrictions placed on athletes that academic scholarship recipients don't have, and probably some placed upon academic recipients that athletes don't have. This is simply not a valid argument. If they don't want the restrictions, go to the G-league, go to school in Germany. Maybe walkon so you aren't on scholarship. 

Maybe says you.

This is the issue was at the heart of the NIL bill that has been passed unanimously in California and overwhelmingly in 4 subsequent states (and counting). You don't have to agree with it, but the argument is valid. 

edit/add: Also curious to know what restrictions you are talking about? Are you comparing something like: maintaining a certain GPA to hold your scholarship vs. making money off of your own name? If so, then I hope you can see the blatant false equivalency. 

Edited by tdhoosier
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I think the guys stating the players are worth well over $40k are overexaggerating a bit.  IU has 1 guy playing right now that any of us on a message board would even know if it weren't for them playing at IU.  

How much could Al or Rob make on NIL?  My guess, it's not much.  Trayce could probably make some good additional money on endorsements in the state, but no one else.  

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23 minutes ago, 812hoosier said:

I think the guys stating the players are worth well over $40k are overexaggerating a bit.  IU has 1 guy playing right now that any of us on a message board would even know if it weren't for them playing at IU.  

How much could Al or Rob make on NIL?  My guess, it's not much.  Trayce could probably make some good additional money on endorsements in the state, but no one else.  

The really popular players will be able to get theirs anywhere.  For the lesser known guys, the question will be "How many Twitter followers are you likely to get as a role player at Indiana and how many at Villanova?  And how likely do you think it will be for you to monetize that at all?"

If Al Durham has 40k followers who are on him just because of his attachment to the school, is it worth a company offering him a hundred bucks to put "Eat at Buffalouies" on his twitter feed?

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7 minutes ago, 812hoosier said:

I think the guys stating the players are worth well over $40k are overexaggerating a bit.  IU has 1 guy playing right now that any of us on a message board would even know if it weren't for them playing at IU.  

How much could Al or Rob make on NIL?  My guess, it's not much.  Trayce could probably make some good additional money on endorsements in the state, but no one else.  

Welcome to the board. Again, it doesn't matter how much they are worth......the market will dictate that. That is an 'in the weeds argument.' The issue is allowing the market to dictate an athletes value so they can capitalize on themselves.

I think you'd be surprised in all the way athletes can make money as social media influencers, shout outs on Cameo (Devonte Green is giving you the green light. haha), sports camps, signing autographs, etc.  If an athlete can only make $200/month on that sort of thing, fine. But he/she should have the right to make that $200/month.

I think people are only looking at the NIL through the lens of big time football and basketball players. In reality, it will also help a girls volleyball player or a men's soccer player. I always use the example of Lilly King. Not many people know who she is despite winning gold medals while at IU. However, I assure you almost every little girl  swimmer in the state of Indiana know exactly who she is.....yet, while in school she couldn't even accept a paid invitation to lead a swim camp or get sponsored by Speedo or even get paid by Avers pizza for a shout out on Cameo. We are talking about a young women who is in the prime of her athletic career and who could not get compensated when her publicity was at an all time high. Luckily Lilly has graduated and is still number one in the world, but a lot of money was left on the table during her first olympics. Many athletes, especially women, peak in college and it's their biggest opportunity to monetarily capitalize on their athletic accomplishments......I say let them. 

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5 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Welcome to the board. Again, it doesn't matter how much they are worth......the market will dictate that. That is an 'in the weeds argument.' The issue is allowing the market to dictate an athletes value so they can capitalize on themselves.

I think you'd be surprised in all the way athletes can make money as social media influencers, shout outs on Cameo (Devonte Green is giving you the green light. haha), sports camps, signing autographs, etc.  If an athlete can only make $200/month on that sort of thing, fine. But he/she should have the right to make that $200/month.

I think people are only looking at the NIL through the lens of big time football and basketball players. In reality, it will also help a girls volleyball player or a men's soccer player. I always use the example of Lilly King. Not many people know who she is despite winning gold medals while at IU. However, I assure you almost every little girl  swimmer in the state of Indiana know exactly who she is.....yet, while in school she couldn't even accept a paid invitation to lead a swim camp or get sponsored by Speedo or even get paid by Avers pizza for a shout out on Cameo. We are talking about a young women who is in the prime of her athletic career and who could not get compensated when her publicity was at an all time high. Luckily Lilly has graduated and is still number one in the world, but a lot of money was left on the table during her first olympics. Many athletes, especially women, peak in college and it's their biggest opportunity to monetarily capitalize on their athletic accomplishments......I say let them. 

It absolutely blows my mind that anyone could object to this. 

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Not at all objecting to the rule, and I honestly didn't even think about the cameo money, etc.  The Lilly King point was a good one.

My objection is really to the players thinking they are worth more than they actually are.  Some would most likely be better off in the current system.  But I guess the market would set that price.

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2 hours ago, MSHoosier said:

I think there are a bunch of restrictions placed on athletes that academic scholarship recipients don't have, and probably some placed upon academic recipients that athletes don't have. This is simply not a valid argument. If they don't want the restrictions, go to the G-league, go to school in Germany. Maybe walkon so you aren't on scholarship. 

Walk-ons still have the same restrictions as scholarship athletes to maintain eligibility. Otherwise, schools would've used this loophole long ago to pay players.

What are the restrictions on academic scholarship recipients that athletic scholarships don't have? Athletes have to maintain a certain GPA and be making progress towards a degree. People with academic scholarships can earn money from NIL while athletes can't until the rule allowing them to is voted on and officially goes into effect. 

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5 hours ago, BobSaccamanno said:

That’s not fair.  Rabjohns isn’t a message board guy and he’s outlined this in great detail.  This isn’t a wild conspiracy theory.  Really good posters on here, including BGleas, have done a great job providing concrete examples.

I missed if Rabjohns outlined it - can you link it? You’re right, that’s lot more credible. 

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25 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

I missed if Rabjohns outlined it - can you link it? You’re right, that’s lot more credible. 

It would be hard to find but I remember him going on Hoosier Hysterics podcast and really going through it in great detail.  It was over a year ago so I’m not sure if I could pull it up now.  But he really goes through many issues one by one.  I’ve heard him refer to it on other occasions but that podcast really devoted significant time to it.  Maybe someone else could chime in with a link.   

EDIT...I looked on my phone.  It might have been the April 23, 2019 podcast.  It’s over three hours long lol.  I have it through Apple podcasts.  

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4 hours ago, go_iu_bb said:

Walk-ons still have the same restrictions as scholarship athletes to maintain eligibility. Otherwise, schools would've used this loophole long ago to pay players.

What are the restrictions on academic scholarship recipients that athletic scholarships don't have? Athletes have to maintain a certain GPA and be making progress towards a degree. People with academic scholarships can earn money from NIL while athletes can't until the rule allowing them to is voted on and officially goes into effect. 

Loophole is the problem I have with NIL. You can say that athletes ought to be able to make money, and I can agree with that,  but why did the NCAA stop players from working part-time jobs ? It was because big time cheaters were paying players for no show jobs as part of the recruiting process. NIL will be no different. You can say that is okay too, but don't kid yourself, there will be an awful lot of personal appearances allowing thousands of dollars to be paid for a promising high school senior to come to your university. If you like the idea of amateur athletics, you can't be excited about this.  I also agree that any ceiling on earnings has to be arbitrary and perhaps not legal.

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1 minute ago, MSHoosier said:

Loophole is the problem I have with NIL. You can say that athletes ought to be able to make money, and I can agree with that,  but why did the NCAA stop players from working part-time jobs ? It was because big time cheaters were paying players for no show jobs as part of the recruiting process. NIL will be no different. You can say that is okay too, but don't kid yourself, there will be an awful lot of personal appearances allowing thousands of dollars to be paid for a promising high school senior to come to your university. If you like the idea of amateur athletics, you can't be excited about this.  I also agree that any ceiling on earnings has to be arbitrary and perhaps not legal.

Totally agree with this and if I want to watch professional sports then I watch them.  I enjoy the college games better and don't want it to be a minor league system.    Just let the top players go pro out of high school and leave college to people wanting to be in college.

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7 hours ago, 812hoosier said:

I think the guys stating the players are worth well over $40k are overexaggerating a bit.  IU has 1 guy playing right now that any of us on a message board would even know if it weren't for them playing at IU.  

How much could Al or Rob make on NIL?  My guess, it's not much.  Trayce could probably make some good additional money on endorsements in the state, but no one else.  

I think you're thinking of this in the more older school version of traditional advertising where a car dealership pays someone $20K to do a commercial. 

There is so much money to be made in influencer marketing. Companies are constantly paying "influencers" to rep their products on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, etc. 

Have 50,000 followers? You can probably charge $2,000-$5,000 per post. Get 5-10 companies to pay you that on a monthly basis and you're making some decent change. 

Have a YouTube channel with 100,00 subscribers? Get approved for YouTube advertising and you're making money on every click, etc.

There are so many ways for these guys to monetize. I'm in marketing and have had "Yoga Mom's" on IG try and charge $5K for a single post on Instagram. 

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

I think you're thinking of this in the more older school version of traditional advertising where a car dealership pays someone $20K to do a commercial. 

There is so much money to be made in influencer marketing. Companies are constantly paying "influencers" to rep their products on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, etc. 

Have 50,000 followers? You can probably charge $2,000-$5,000 per post. Get 5-10 companies to pay you that on a monthly basis and you're making some decent change. 

Have a YouTube channel with 100,00 subscribers? Get approved for YouTube advertising and you're making money on every click, etc.

There are so many ways for these guys to monetize. I'm in marketing and have had "Yoga Mom's" on IG try and charge $5K for a single post on Instagram. 

A little off topic, but you gotta watch Fake Famous on HBO. The whole world of ‘influencing’ is so f’d up. 

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The fact that you'd rather kids get taken advantage of than have a few kids take advantage of the system says all I need to know about how some of you value about people. 

If I was going to pinpoint what is absolutely embarrassing for a fanbase, it's saying someone doesn't have a right to own their own likeness. That's so much more dehumanizing than any amount of expectations for on court performance. 

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40 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

The fact that you'd rather kids get taken advantage of than have a few kids take advantage of the system says all I need to know about how some of you value about people. 

If I was going to pinpoint what is absolutely embarrassing for a fanbase, it's saying someone doesn't have a right to own their own likeness. That's so much more dehumanizing than any amount of expectations for on court performance. 

I dont want to see Universities paying players because they cant pay them all equitably.  

But to keep players from earning money independently is ridiculous.  

Reminds me of a book I read about Barry Switzer and his 80's Oklahoma football teams. They all had summer "jobs" at the local Corvette plant.

I'm sure Brian Bosworth could have made more on his likeness and still got a free Corvette and cocaine.

 

 

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5 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

The fact that you'd rather kids get taken advantage of than have a few kids take advantage of the system says all I need to know about how some of you value about people. 

If I was going to pinpoint what is absolutely embarrassing for a fanbase, it's saying someone doesn't have a right to own their own likeness. That's so much more dehumanizing than any amount of expectations for on court performance. 

I just don't agree that I am embarrassing our fanbase by saying I prefer an amateur system. No one is forcing anyone to play college basketball to get to the NBA. As best I can tell, no one is forcing anyone to play college baseball or college swimming. There are plenty of swimmers that compete at the Olympics that aren't in College. And if I'm not mistaken, there are plenty of walks of life where you sign over your earning capacity off your own ideas to an organization for the duration of your employment.  You can always go back to college after you have made a bunch of money. See Isaiah Thomas. I love college basketball and would like to see less cheating not more. That said, I am not opposed to athletes making money. I would more likely approve of the Power 5 conferences getting out of the NCAA so that they could make their own rules that don't have to be crammed into the NCAA vision of amateurism. Find something that works for those universities that are pulling the wagon. For example.  If I am not mistaken, the Olympics allowed at one time or allows money to be put into some type of trust for the benefit of the athlete to keep their amateur status. Not sure how it worked. Why not allow something similar for college athletes. All the money they could make on their likeness could be put into some type of trust for their benefit until they no longer participate in college. Make provisions for payment to them or their families for necessary expenses and of course, taxes. Perhaps have them report it to the University so someone can keep track of it and the player can publicize how much he or she is making off their likeness and influence. I never listened to the Podcast a while back, so I realize I'm behind the curve on everything. Sorry to rehash this topic so much. Much more concerned about how we finish the season. Go IU

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On 2/21/2021 at 12:45 PM, IUwins0708 said:

Just a random thought.  Did Archie hear the noise and recruit too many Indiana kids because that’s what he thought the fans wanted?  Not saying recruiting Indiana kids is a bad thing but maybe he heard about Creans failure to do so and made that a point almost to a flaw.  Just me thinking out loud. 

I kinda fall back on my personal line of thinking.....you dont have to be from indiana to be an indiana kid.  I think of it as more of a mindset and how they play than their address.  I understand a LOT of people will disagree with that tho.  But Vic, Bryant, Sheehey, Ziesloft were all indiana kids in my opinion in the same mold that Yogi, Romeo, Hulls and Zeller were indiana kids.

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36 minutes ago, MSHoosier said:

I just don't agree that I am embarrassing our fanbase by saying I prefer an amateur system. No one is forcing anyone to play college basketball to get to the NBA. As best I can tell, no one is forcing anyone to play college baseball or college swimming. There are plenty of swimmers that compete at the Olympics that aren't in College. And if I'm not mistaken, there are plenty of walks of life where you sign over your earning capacity off your own ideas to an organization for the duration of your employment.  You can always go back to college after you have made a bunch of money. See Isaiah Thomas. I love college basketball and would like to see less cheating not more. That said, I am not opposed to athletes making money. I would more likely approve of the Power 5 conferences getting out of the NCAA so that they could make their own rules that don't have to be crammed into the NCAA vision of amateurism. Find something that works for those universities that are pulling the wagon. For example.  If I am not mistaken, the Olympics allowed at one time or allows money to be put into some type of trust for the benefit of the athlete to keep their amateur status. Not sure how it worked. Why not allow something similar for college athletes. All the money they could make on their likeness could be put into some type of trust for their benefit until they no longer participate in college. Make provisions for payment to them or their families for necessary expenses and of course, taxes. Perhaps have them report it to the University so someone can keep track of it and the player can publicize how much he or she is making off their likeness and influence. I never listened to the Podcast a while back, so I realize I'm behind the curve on everything. Sorry to rehash this topic so much. Much more concerned about how we finish the season. Go IU

I’ll just say this. In order to gain membership or maintain status, no institution should be able to demand the loss of a basic human right in this county. Not under the guise of amateurism and not under the guise of cheating. It’s along the lines of saying: if you work for a private institution the company can demand that you are only allowed to have one kid. It’s a silly argument to say: ‘well just go work for a publicly held company, problem solved.’ 

There are demands institutions can make and demands they can’t. Denying the ability to make money on your likeness is one they can’t. If it threatens the playing field of the game we love then too bad; find another way to protect its integrity. Human rights trump fandom. I’m sorry, but to argue the other way is selfish.  

As I said before. There is a reason this is becoming a law in more states: it infringes on the protections we are guaranteed in this country. It’s crazy that it has taken this long.

I also don’t accept the notion that this will destroy the college game. Sure, stronger programs will be more appealing to recruits, but they are now. It’s not like Creighton continually gets top 25 players now; these ‘high value players’ are favored to go to bigger schools with more resources and more nationally televised games. Money has already established the hierarchy in CBB. 

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20 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

What do you think it is?

I don't think the administration is the only thing, but I think it definitely plays a part.  Namely in that I don't think they want to play some of the games are former peers (Kansas, UNC, Kentucky) are willing to play in.  Call it being shady, cheating, and also avoiding certain types of personalities to hire...but the administration does play a part.

Our administration wants to use HUGE chunks of sports revenue to support things other than sports while when building new sports facilities, making them really nice, but NOT looking to make them the best in the conference or nation. Our faculties are nothing to scream from the mountain tops about. 

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