It’s time... Fire Archie Miller

[BADGERVOL]

Ok I’ll be the guy to ask it...I have zero shame in asking this...

Are there any women coaches out there who could blaze the trail and take the reigns?

[Inequality]

12 minutes ago, Ferg 32 said:

I never see Tubby Smiths name anymore either I know he is approaching 70 but has a good record.

RUN

[macomb hoosier]

1 hour ago, madmax said:

In the administration’s defense, Archie was pretty much unanimously held to be a great up and coming coach for years, not just a “flavor of the month”. I mean go back and read the articles written at the time and you’ll be hard pressed to find one declaring it anything other then a home run hire.

What's interesting, and it's why I respect this board so much, is that many posters on this board were somewhat meh at the time of hire. There were some people who posted some analytics very early on about Archie's offensive difficulties. RMK's endorsement of Archie and a poster from Dayton who said good things had a good deal of sway, but there were more than a few people around here (not me) who were skeptical.

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, BADGERVOL said:

Ok I’ll be the guy to ask it...I have zero shame in asking this...

Are there any women coaches out there who could blaze the trail and take the reigns?

Becky Hammon.

[BADGERVOL]

7 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Becky Hammon.

Yes. Think about that for a minute.

Sat under one of the great minds of basketball. Has NBA ties. Would garner a nation wide uproar in a good way...attention never hurts. It would be THE story in college basketball. 🤔 

[Sea Turtle]

7 minutes ago, macomb hoosier said:

What's interesting, and it's why I respect this board so much, is that many posters on this board were somewhat meh at the time of hire. There were some people who posted some analytics very early on about Archie's offensive difficulties. RMK's endorsement of Archie and a poster from Dayton who said good things had a good deal of sway, but there were more than a few people around here (not me) who were skeptical.

I was very underwhelmed with the hire. A very boring, vanilla hire. A guy who grinds out wins with a Jurassic era offense at a mid major who had a nice tourney run. 

I was so disappointed and wanted the breaking news tweet to be wrong. It wasn't. 

[KoB2011]

16 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Yes. Think about that for a minute.

Sat under one of the great minds of basketball. Has NBA ties. Would garner a nation wide uproar in a good way...attention never hurts. It would be THE story in college basketball. 🤔 

I mean we could do worse, she's a hell of a basketball mind. Can she bring Timmy Duncan as an assistant?

[rico]

4 hours ago, Sea Turtle said:

I was very underwhelmed with the hire. A very boring, vanilla hire. A guy who grinds out wins with a Jurassic era offense at a mid major who had a nice tourney run. 

I was so disappointed and wanted the breaking news tweet to be wrong. It wasn't. 

You just made me think that a lot of you don't understand the history of Dayton basketball.

[OLDIUFAN]

Parker Stewart has got to be second guessing himself! Are Kenya Hunter! 

[iamaparker1]

Maybe we should hire Kenya Hunter.

[HoosierJax]

[Air Ball]

10 hours ago, macomb hoosier said:

What's interesting, and it's why I respect this board so much, is that many posters on this board were somewhat meh at the time of hire. There were some people who posted some analytics very early on about Archie's offensive difficulties. RMK's endorsement of Archie and a poster from Dayton who said good things had a good deal of sway, but there were more than a few people around here (not me) who were skeptical.

I was not posting on this board back when Archie Miller was hired.  But, did post a bit on two others. Have lived in Dayton since 1982.  The Dayton area supports the University of Dayton basketball team.  It is a big deal.

Archie Miller took over there from Brian Gregory.  Gregory left Dayton much like Crean left Indiana...recruiting for both had fallen off significantly and they both were not good fits.  Archie Miller then got lucky and did a good job with UD and he fit.

The players all shared the ball and got along fairly well.  They helped each other.  Archie Miller had recruited basketball players that were long and were players.  The point guards got the ball into the offense quickly.  

Indiana fans did not want someone who wasn't 'proven'.  Brad Stevens, Mark Few were some names.  When Miller was announced fans were all over the spectrum on the hire.

I graduated from IU when IU went undefeated.  I love IU basketball.  I am no expert on basketball or college sports coaches.  But having followed UD before Miller, and having followed IU before RMK (a little), I thought that Archie Miller might make the short-list...but was pleasantly surprised that he was chosen.

I thought that he was a very good coach.  Obviously, at Dayton, had success for Dayton that had not been there in decades.  The keys were his teams played like teams, had great guards, were more than decent with the packline, he made adjustments, had decent plays when needed.

What is different today with Indiana is multifaceted.  Indiana has not had a great point guard during Miller's tenure.  Indiana cannot get the offense going consistently.  Shooters do not score.  Defense cannot stop the quick drive.  There is no flexibility or depth on the bench.  Other teams disrupt Indiana.  Miller can send in plays but execution is not there.

To me it is clear why Archie Miller at UD was more successful than at Indiana.  Three things: 1. Basketball in the B1G has moved away from the pipeline to Indiana...call it momentum, for instance look at high school players and the system; 2. Defenses around the conference are tougher and Indiana is easy to defend against; 3. Miller is not getting basketball players that are long and motivated. All that makes Archie's coaching and X's and O's moot.  

Indiana has been snake bit.  Archie Miller has been unlucky on the recruiting and player sides of the equation.  A lot of that was the administration (what coach would come to Indiana the way they are treated), Crean burned bridges and over hyped everything, Sampson self destructed with the administration shooting Indiana in the head twice, RMK self destructed and the administration botched everything about that, Davis wasn't going to end well, unfortunately...

And the fans have not really changed.  Lots want an immediate solution...and there isn't one.  Glass tried to grow one but one could argue that Miller has not had enough time.  Without getting all emotional, ask yourself why Glass put such a high buyout in the coach's contract.   It was not a mistake.

I hope that Archie Miller turns Indiana basketball around.   I will believe it when I see it. Archie Miller is a button-down type. More in the mold of Coach K or Coach Wooden.  I say give him more time.  Maybe send a point guard and a shooter to Indiana if you have one or the other.  It would help. 

I do not see Archie Miller being in over his head.  I see a good coach having growing pains...partly because of the baggage that IU gave itself and him. That is what I mean that IU has been snake bit.

It does not mean that he should not be let go after next year.  It does mean that whomever gets hired after him will have 5 years to walk on water. Then rinse and repeat.

 

 

 

[5fouls]

11 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

I can't even type what I want to type. I'll say this. If Dane Fife is given consideration for this position I'll be tapping out of the IU fandom. Great former player? Sure. Some coaching experience? I guess. Ready to take on this role? No. Never. Nada. Zilch.....that's all.

 

Tapping out on IU fandom before giving him a chance?  I don't get that.  I would be disappointed with that hire as well, but would feel pretty sheepish if I totally quit on the program, only to come crawling back if we're in the Sweet 16 in year 2 and the Final Four in year three.

I'll be willing to give anyone and everyone a chance, with the possible exception of John Calipari and Rick Pitino, before I would bail on IU fandom.

 

 

[IUCrazy2]

19 minutes ago, Air Ball said:

I was not posting on this board back when Archie Miller was hired.  But, did post a bit on two others. Have lived in Dayton since 1982.  The Dayton area supports the University of Dayton basketball team.  It is a big deal.

Archie Miller took over there from Brian Gregory.  Gregory left Dayton much like Crean left Indiana...recruiting for both had fallen off significantly and they both were not good fits.  Archie Miller then got lucky and did a good job with UD and he fit.

The players all shared the ball and got along fairly well.  They helped each other.  Archie Miller had recruited basketball players that were long and were players.  The point guards got the ball into the offense quickly.  

Indiana fans did not want someone who wasn't 'proven'.  Brad Stevens, Mark Few were some names.  When Miller was announced fans were all over the spectrum on the hire.

I graduated from IU when IU went undefeated.  I love IU basketball.  I am no expert on basketball or college sports coaches.  But having followed UD before Miller, and having followed IU before RMK (a little), I thought that Archie Miller might make the short-list...but was pleasantly surprised that he was chosen.

I thought that he was a very good coach.  Obviously, at Dayton, had success for Dayton that had not been there in decades.  The keys were his teams played like teams, had great guards, were more than decent with the packline, he made adjustments, had decent plays when needed.

What is different today with Indiana is multifaceted.  Indiana has not had a great point guard during Miller's tenure.  Indiana cannot get the offense going consistently.  Shooters do not score.  Defense cannot stop the quick drive.  There is no flexibility or depth on the bench.  Other teams disrupt Indiana.  Miller can send in plays but execution is not there.

To me it is clear why Archie Miller at UD was more successful than at Indiana.  Three things: 1. Basketball in the B1G has moved away from the pipeline to Indiana...call it momentum, for instance look at high school players and the system; 2. Defenses around the conference are tougher and Indiana is easy to defend against; 3. Miller is not getting basketball players that are long and motivated. All that makes Archie's coaching and X's and O's moot.  

Indiana has been snake bit.  Archie Miller has been unlucky on the recruiting and player sides of the equation.  A lot of that was the administration (what coach would come to Indiana the way they are treated), Crean burned bridges and over hyped everything, Sampson self destructed with the administration shooting Indiana in the head twice, RMK self destructed and the administration botched everything about that, Davis wasn't going to end well, unfortunately...

And the fans have not really changed.  Lots want an immediate solution...and there isn't one.  Glass tried to grow one but one could argue that Miller has not had enough time.  Without getting all emotional, ask yourself why Glass put such a high buyout in the coach's contract.   It was not a mistake.

I hope that Archie Miller turns Indian basketball around.   I will believe it when I see it. Archie Miller is a button-down type. More in the mold of Coach K or Coach Wooden.  I say give him more time.  Maybe send a point guard and a shooter to Indiana if you have one or the other.  It would help.

 

 

 

Sorry, don't buy it.  He has had 4 years to rectify the issues you mention.  He left 2 scholarships open this year.  He has had a PG problem since day 1.  He does not use the bench to motivate...really I don't see much coaching going on at all during the games.

He went from a hard nose at Dayton to a wuss at IU.  He is stubborn to a fault.  He does some good things from an X and O perspective but I would rate him poorly on just about everything else.

I doubt Glass thought we would still be struggling this bad in year 4.  If he did, he was an idiot for saying all that stuff about Championships when Miller was hired.  That is not managing expectations.  Dolson sold that better to Guyton.  I now know that Indiana has winning 4th on their priority list (at least).

[5fouls]

10 hours ago, JugRox said:

Hire Fife and see if the fan base divides.

Frankly, maybe the fan base would be better without a certain element that is never happy.

[cybergates]

10 hours ago, JugRox said:

Hire Fife and see if the fan base divides.

[cybergates]

10 hours ago, Inequality said:

Someone tell us more about why Drew would be a good fit? It’s taken him what, maybe 16-18 years at Baylor to become the flavor of the month? I could be wrong as I don’t follow Baylor directly. But is that right or wrong?

I'll bite.

Took over scandal ridden (with teammate murder) team after only one 1 year of HC experience at Valpo in 2004.

After 4 years, in year 5 (2008) was ranked 41st in Kenpom (using Kenpom rankings since they are easily accessible for me). Since that 2008 ranking of 41, he's been better ranked every year except one (2011 #80). All doing this at Baylor who made the NCAA tournament 4x in school history prior to Drew (1946,48,50,88). He gets players to go to Baylor, but also is succeeding without top talent. This year he has 6 players in the RSCI top 100, but the top ranked one is 58th.

He's not without his warts like any candidate, lack of conference titles (Kansas won all those in a row), lack of NCAA success (2 E8s are as far as he's gone), ranked 2nd in that cheaters poll, Perea issue, etc. 

[AxnJxn]

10 hours ago, OGIUAndy said:

Couldn't agree more. I really thought he would shine here and that's what worries me most.

Yeah, that's pretty concerning when a guy who checked as many boxes as CAM did falls flat like this. I mean, most of the candidates that are being thrown around right now aren't as good a fit as Archie was when he was hired. 

[Seeking6]

43 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Tapping out on IU fandom before giving him a chance?  I don't get that.  I would be disappointed with that hire as well, but would feel pretty sheepish if I totally quit on the program, only to come crawling back if we're in the Sweet 16 in year 2 and the Final Four in year three.

I'll be willing to give anyone and everyone a chance, with the possible exception of John Calipari and Rick Pitino, before I would bail on IU fandom.

 

 

Guess I should qualify this response as well...when I say tapping out on fandom it doesn't mean stop being a fan. It means stop being a fan to the levels I'm accustom. 

[BADGERVOL]

22 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

Yeah, that's pretty concerning when a guy who checked as many boxes as CAM did falls flat like this. I mean, most of the candidates that are being thrown around right now aren't as good a fit as Archie was when he was hired. 

You are correct. And that is concerning.

[madmax]

With all due respect to @IUwins0708 and others who have shared information(which I do very much appreciate, even if the info doesn’t pan out), I still believe Archie comes back next year the more that I think about it.

I mean we all seem to universally agree that the IU administration and AD do not seem to actually hold the same expectations that we do for the basketball program. Everyone here also seems to universally agree that they could see the university settling for a 2nd or 3rd tier option after Archie, instead of being persistent enough to get the “right guy”.

But we also somehow think they’re gonna have the guts to move on from Archie mid pandemic and swallow a $10 million buyout? Or we really think that Archie is just going to resign? How many times has that actually happened at big time programs like IU? Not frequently. I don’t know. Just thinking out loud, I suppose, and I very well may be wrong.
 

 

 

[IUwins0708]

2 minutes ago, madmax said:

With all due respect to @IUwins0708 and others who have shared information(which I do very much appreciate, even if the info doesn’t pan out), I still believe Archie comes back next year the more that I think about it.

I mean we all seem to universally agree that the IU administration and AD do not seem to actually hold the same expectations that we do for the basketball program. Everyone here also seems to universally agree that they could see the university settling for a 2nd or 3rd tier option after Archie, instead of being persistent enough to get the “right guy”.

But we also somehow think they’re gonna have the guts to move on from Archie mid pandemic and swallow a $10 million buyout? Or we really think that Archie is just going to resign? How many times has that actually happened at big time programs like IU? Not frequently. I don’t know. Just thinking out loud, I suppose, and I very well may be wrong.
 

 

 

Buyout won’t be an issue if they both agree to part ways.  It would be a lesser amount as he would save face and resign.  Also if they chose to fire him that isn’t paid out in one lump some.  It’s over a time span and any money he makes at another job is taken off of his buyout.  Not saying it’s happening for sure but it’s very doable even during a pandemic-budget year.

[madmax]

Just now, IUwins0708 said:

Buyout won’t be an issue if they both agree to part ways.  It would be a lesser amount as he would save face and resign.  Also if they chose to fire him that isn’t paid out in one lump some.  It’s over a time span and any money he makes at another job is taken off of his buyout.  Not saying it’s happening for sure but it’s very doable even during a pandemic-budget year.

Yeah I guess I more meant the optics of it then anything else. I’ve got zero doubt the money would be there if necessary. Just figured it may be a bad look that IU may want to avoid right now.

[FritzIam4IU]

2 minutes ago, madmax said:

With all due respect to @IUwins0708 and others who have shared information(which I do very much appreciate, even if the info doesn’t pan out), I still believe Archie comes back next year the more that I think about it.

I mean we all seem to universally agree that the IU administration and AD do not seem to actually hold the same expectations that we do for the basketball program. Everyone here also seems to universally agree that they could see the university settling for a 2nd or 3rd tier option after Archie, instead of being persistent enough to get the “right guy”.

But we also somehow think they’re gonna have the guts to move on from Archie mid pandemic and swallow a $10 million buyout? Or we really think that Archie is just going to resign? How many times has that actually happened at big time programs like IU? Not frequently. I don’t know. Just thinking out loud, I suppose, and I very well may be wrong.
 

 

 

I understand your points, especially regarding the IU administration. AND, I was thinking the same way as you less than two weeks ago. However, after the last few games, especially the Rutgers game, and the fact that we will probably have to win the Big Ten tourney to make the NCAA tourney, I have "crossed over" to feeling he needs to go. I'm sure the administration wanted/wants to keep him on for another year if possible, but I think they are realizing he will have a potentially extremely toxic/difficult year next season if CAM comes back, especially if TJD leaves as many expect. CAM would have tough time recruiting as essentially a lame duck coach, which would set IU back even more and present a bigger obstacle for an incoming coach. If Dolson doesn't have confidence in CAM being the long term solution to IU basketball...I think it is best to move quickly rather than drag it out. We all witnessed what the last year of Crean's tenure was like, and I don't think anyone wants a repeat of that.

If the reports that @IUwins0708 are hearing are true about a settlement deal being reached for CAM to "walk away" then I think that could be a win-win for IU and CAM. If they agree to pay him a lump sum of one year salary to have his contract off the books...it would perhaps give IU more financial flexibility in hiring a new coach and give CAM a year to choose his next coaching job carefully to make sure it is a good fit.

[Cutter]

27 minutes ago, madmax said:

With all due respect to @IUwins0708 and others who have shared information(which I do very much appreciate, even if the info doesn’t pan out), I still believe Archie comes back next year the more that I think about it.

I mean we all seem to universally agree that the IU administration and AD do not seem to actually hold the same expectations that we do for the basketball program. Everyone here also seems to universally agree that they could see the university settling for a 2nd or 3rd tier option after Archie, instead of being persistent enough to get the “right guy”.

But we also somehow think they’re gonna have the guts to move on from Archie mid pandemic and swallow a $10 million buyout? Or we really think that Archie is just going to resign? How many times has that actually happened at big time programs like IU? Not frequently. I don’t know. Just thinking out loud, I suppose, and I very well may be wrong.
 

 

 

He won’t be back at IU next year