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It’s time... Fire Archie Miller


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Just now, IUProfessor said:

A little late to the party on this one, but the alleged quote from Dolson about him and Archie being on the same page doesn't strike me as being a sign that Archie is coming back. For instance, he could have meant that he and Archie are on the same page that IU should be in the dance every year. Or that they're on the same page that a sub-.500 record won't get it done. That could mean any number of things other than a sign of support.

Good point...if you knew you were going to bring him back...the sooner you make that commitment and make it clear publicly the better Archie is for recruiting and taking some pressure off of the BTT so they can maybe play loose?

Idk...idk how they can play right now it’s gonna take a miracle to see a significantly better team by flipping some switch.

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4 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

And I see some of the concerning things you do as well...But as I said, next year is the make or break for me...

You coached, and I value your opinion a lot...But think back and tell me that losing your second leading scorer for the bevy of the conference season, and having your leader hobbled by injuries these last 5 games makes no difference...

 

It does have an impact, but we were losing games before Franklin got hurt.  We have been hovering around that .500 mark for most of the year.  

The problem I have is that every year there is some excuse as to performance.  Yes, losing your second leading scorer or having a guy like Brunk on the bench can have an impact.  But we have a Junior and Senior guard starting.  Race stepped in and is performing like Brunk did last year.  The huge hole there was not using a scholarship to get a guy who could average 3 or 4 points and 3 or 4 rebounds a game to replace Race's production from last year.

I think there have been some things that have not gone Miller's way that were out of his control, but I think that is true of any coach.

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As a coach, I realize that the style you want to play doesn't work every game, year, or against every team.  You have to adjust the style around the situation and your team.  The frustrating thing as a fan is watching CAM force a square peg into a round hole.  If it is not going to work, try something new or we need to find something new.

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2 hours ago, dbmhoosier said:

He's way too old and takes at least several years to get his system in place.  I doubt he'd be able to recruit either after his thugs comment.  Every other coach would use that against him.  Drew, Musselman, Beard, and Mack should really be the only ones under consideration. 

If we make a change, those are my realistic four as well. 

At worst, they all have very high floors. 

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23 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Gosh this sums my thoughts up BIG TIME. Only thing I’d add is that all my impressions of Archie are positive so I also just really LIKE the guy. But it’s OVER in my mind. And even if he does come back and TJD did for some weird reason and we did show some improvement and moved to 5th to 6th in the Big Ten...that somehow some supporters of Archie would be like “oh see! There we go we are climbing back.” That’s not good enough. If he came back he’d have to blow the doors off to impress me. A undies team that finishes top 3 and was on the hunt for the BT Title all year, made the tourney ans either got to the Sweet 16 or drew a HARD second round match up and played them wicked well AND had some great talent coming in and more great talented beyond strongly interested.

Anything less than ALL of that isn’t gonna cut it. We don’t need to see a step on the right direction if he’s back. We’ve needed to see that already. We need a HUGE LEAP to have a shot all the while any bad games the base will be at his throat and the team. 
 

in short...NOT likely going to happen. Time to move on.

Agreed. If he's back next year, the bar for improvement shouldn't be lowered based on this year if that makes sense. Using #'s to quantify it for example purposes, if his goals were:

Year 1 - goal 10, actual 10 - met expectations b/c goal was low, high patience 

Year 2 - goal 20, actual 15 - did not meet expectation with 19-16 (8-12) records w/ NBA lottery pick on team

Year 3 - goal 30, actual 20 - did not meet (higher) expectations w/ 20-12 (9-11) records w/ McD's recruit but did show slight improvement and likely would have made NCAA tournament

Year 4 - goal 40, actual 5 (incomplete) - has not met expectations w/ 12-14 (7-12) records w/ McD's recruit returning for So. year

Year 5 - goal 50

Just because this year is a 5 next year shouldn't be a 10-20, it should remain a 50.

Edited by cybergates
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2 hours ago, Muddy River said:

I believe John had a conference record of something like 30 and 42 in his first 4 seasons at Michigan.  Would we allow him a 5th year after a start like that?

We need a red heart button to show that i love this question, not just like it. 

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2 hours ago, Muddy River said:

I believe John had a conference record of something like 30 and 42 in his first 4 seasons at Michigan.  Would we allow him a 5th year after a start like that?

It is going to be a free for all this off-season.  It will not take a good coach 4 years to rebuild.  There was not & should not have been the major rebuild over the past four years as most make it out to be.

 

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24 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

It makes a HUGE difference but we you sit on 2 schollys you have no one to blame for not having available players. The excuse of our bench are all freshmen, well whose fault is that. At PU they have had 4 freshmen named BIg frosh of the week. No excuse to not have guys ready to play

2 of those guys, Newman and Gillis, are red shirts (neither medical like Jerome Hunter's), so they've had a year in the system...and Ivey and Edey were both way underrated coming out of high school, and a special talents...I don't think any of our freshmen are as talented as those 2...yet :) 

Our upper class depth went out the window with Forrester and Moore...But they weren't willing to sit on the bench until someone got hurt...so they transferred out...

That's the delicate balance you have to achieve...Having 8 in the rotation, and 4 that aren't but are willing to sit and wait their turn...

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1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

2 of those guys, Newman and Gillis, are red shirts (neither medical like Jerome Hunter's), so they've had a year in the system...and Ivey and Edey were both way underrated coming out of high school, and a special talents...I don't think any of our freshmen are as talented as those 2...yet :) 

Our upper class depth went out the window with Forrester and Moore...But they weren't willing to sit on the bench until someone got hurt...so they transferred out...

That's the delicate balance you have to achieve...Having 8 in the rotation, and 4 that aren't but are willing to sit and wait their turn...

Fair points so why is it that CMP can afford to redshirt players and CAM can't or does not even need to since he does not fill out the roster to begin with. CMP can sell kids to redshirt but CAM can't sell kids to fight for that stating spot. 3 of those 4 freshmen for PU are from Indiana so much for locking up the borders. Would Leal and Galloway benefited from a red shirt season? IDK but with no one else on the team they did not have the option. All of this goes back to the head coach. CTC was always blasted for Creaning and offering too many I would rather have that situation than to be forced to play guys that are not ready. 

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39 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

You can see this team is not together at all. Just watch some of the mid majors and other teams that are not great and many of them you see a team a brotherhood that I got your back and you have mine. I have not seen that from this program for a long time. 

Problem is...they were never together, at least to my eyes. They all hung out and had kumbaya moment in summer, but when the light's on and pressure goes up, we saw the same dysfunctional team. I totally believe this IU program failed miserably in 'leadership'. The head coach is not a good leader, and he and his staff failed to cultivate leadership in players. If coaching staff has done all they could but players failed to come through, then it's still coaching staff's fault because they failed to recruit potential young leaders. 

Now after 4 years of mediocrity AND unattractive style basketball that doesn't generate winning, Archie has been completely exposed. He was able to land Romeo simply because he was the new IU coach and people didn't know how good or bad Archie would be. What's happening now is a steep downward spiral that is awfully hard to reverse. It already started with 2021 class, and from this point and on, we should forget about landing quality in-state kids as long as Archie's here. Right after BTT, IU needs to part ways with Archie. 

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37 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

It does have an impact, but we were losing games before Franklin got hurt.  We have been hovering around that .500 mark for most of the year.  

The problem I have is that every year there is some excuse as to performance.  Yes, losing your second leading scorer or having a guy like Brunk on the bench can have an impact.  But we have a Junior and Senior guard starting.  Race stepped in and is performing like Brunk did last year.  The huge hole there was not using a scholarship to get a guy who could average 3 or 4 points and 3 or 4 rebounds a game to replace Race's production from last year.

I think there have been some things that have not gone Miller's way that were out of his control, but I think that is true of any coach.

And that, my friend, is a big part of the issue as well...I looked at the numbers and in our wins, Al averages 14 pts per...Rob 10...In our losses, Al averages 9 per, and Rob 6...My opinion is we've been in every game but 3 (Texas, Ohio State, Michigan) and that inconsistency killed us...But the alternatives were Lander (who I think is going to be a special player, but not physically or mentally ready for the rigors of the B1G just yet), Galloway (who is more a "little things" guy, when we need offense), and Leal who can produce offense but has struggled a little on defense (But the effort is there)...

We've missed on a few guards, notably Quinones, Carton (who I'm kinda glad we did miss on), and Curbelo (who after a rough stretch with turnovers has turned into a pretty good point guard)...But none of the 3 are really good outside shooters and that's what we need...we get open shots (and to the "well, the defense sags so that's by design" crowd, I say, "OK, but if we had Armaan (41% 3 point shooter) and another guard (Stewart?) capable of close to 40%, were in the lineup it would open up our inside game, and TJD would be a FIRST Team AA") .

The "huge hole" you speak of only appeared when Brunk went down, late in the pre season. I said it before, what grad transfer would think he could get any time for 2 spots with TJD, Race, Joey, and Hunter in the way?

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2 hours ago, Muddy River said:

I believe John had a conference record of something like 30 and 42 in his first 4 seasons at Michigan.  Would we allow him a 5th year after a start like that?

Another question (of more importance to me b/c I don't want Beilein to be our next coach) is:

Would Illinois and/or OSU keep or fire CAM if he had these 4 year results for them instead of us?

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4 minutes ago, cybergates said:

Another question (of more importance to me b/c I don't want Beilein to be our next coach) is:

Would Illinois and/or OSU keep or fire CAM if he had these 4 year results for them instead of us?

Illinois kept Grose into his 5th year with as bad or worse results than CAM, and OSU held onto Randy Ayers (I know, going back a ways, but there's no other point of reference) well past his shelf life...

Edited by IUFLA
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22 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Fair points so why is it that CMP can afford to redshirt players and CAM can't or does not even need to since he does not fill out the roster to begin with. CMP can sell kids to redshirt but CAM can't sell kids to fight for that stating spot. 3 of those 4 freshmen for PU are from Indiana so much for locking up the borders. Would Leal and Galloway benefited from a red shirt season? IDK but with no one else on the team they did not have the option. All of this goes back to the head coach. CTC was always blasted for Creaning and offering too many I would rather have that situation than to be forced to play guys that are not ready. 

I don't know the answer to that, but you're right in saying we couldn't afford to RS them because we needed the bodies...

Like I said, a delicate balance...I made the point earlier that there was a stretch in the middle of Porkchop's career that would have earned him a pink slip at IU...But they let him "play through his mistakes."

I'm willing (for 1 more year) to try to let Archie do the same...I can understand why some don't, but again, if we're going to shake the dice on an "up and comer" or wind up with a retread rather that at least a semi-sure thing, then no thanks...

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3 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

How did those work out?

Grose got fired right before the tournament in year 5...Ayers, after a promising start to his OSU career, got canned after 8 years and no tournament appearances after year 3...

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Last night my father in law told me that he does not think that CAM could have won the MAC this year with the roster IU has so how in the world could he do it in the BIG. Thinks its one of the worst rosters he has seen at a school that is supposed to be a powerhouse. I could not argue any of it. 

We officially have no basketball rival anymore. NO UK game and you can't call PU a rival, you have to at least be competitive every once in a while. Lets load up on ISU, Ball State, IPFW next year and then maybe we will be ok, oh yeah we did that before and well....

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5 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Last night my father in law told me that he does not think that CAM could have won the MAC this year with the roster IU has so how in the world could he do it in the BIG. Thinks its one of the worst rosters he has seen at a school that is supposed to be a powerhouse. I could not argue any of it. 

We officially have no basketball rival anymore. NO UK game and you can't call PU a rival, you have to at least be competitive every once in a while. Lets load up on ISU, Ball State, IPFW next year and then maybe we will be ok, oh yeah we did that before and well....

That schedule will be full of small schools and cup cakes. 

Edited by DC2345
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4 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Last night my father in law told me that he does not think that CAM could have won the MAC this year with the roster IU has so how in the world could he do it in the BIG. Thinks its one of the worst rosters he has seen at a school that is supposed to be a powerhouse. I could not argue any of it. 

We officially have no basketball rival anymore. NO UK game and you can't call PU a rival, you have to at least be competitive every once in a while. Lets load up on ISU, Ball State, IPFW next year and then maybe we will be ok, oh yeah we did that before and well....

My friend, please be careful what you wish for. Those little in-state brothers play 200% harder when they play IU. They would gladly step on our neck when we're down...with a smile. 

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1 minute ago, addictedtoIU said:

My friend, please be careful what you wish for. Those little in-state brothers play 200% harder when they play IU. They would gladly step on our neck when we're down...with a smile. 

Thats why I said it just a fun little jab at the 1st year for CAM. Those are some of the schools that my former players went to. 

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5 minutes ago, IUJoe said:

I’m new at posting here, but I thought I’d throw in my 2 cents, not for the sake of any argument, but just for another perspective.

Before this season, I was mainly on the side of “give Archie more time.”  I thought he needed 4 years, and I thought calls to fire him before that were premature.  Other very successful coaches have needed 3-4 years to turn things around.  And I thought some of the things I saw posted in the past couple years, particularly on one other site, really put IU and the fanbase in a poor light.

This season, though, Archie lost me.  I started losing hope after the home loss to Northwestern, and I have seen little since then that helps me regain any hope.  I’m a numbers guy, and the numbers aren’t good.  That being said, if it were just numbers alone that were poor, I might be inclined to give Archie another year.  It’s when I go beyond the numbers that I lose any hope he can get this turned around.

Two words I hear Archie say a lot are “confidence” and “togetherness.”  Archie’s teams have shown very little of either, particularly in the second half of seasons, in all 4 of his years.  He has often admitted that in press conferences.  Many times, in all 4 years, he has said “we lack confidence, and that affects our togetherness.” 

In year 1 or year 2, that may be understandable and excusable, and he was trying to coach players he didn’t recruit to a system they didn’t commit to, and blend them with players he did recruit.  Given the circumstances, maybe even a little still in year 3.  But it’s no longer understandable and excusable.  The team still lacks anything resembling confidence and togetherness.  As a result, the team rarely plays with enough passion and intensity to win at a level we all expect.  When it happened in year 1 and year 2, perhaps the blame was on some of the players.  When it’s happened all 4 years, the buck stops with the coach.

At the end of the day, a coach’s #1 mission is to blend the players into a cohesive unit that plays together, with the whole being greater than the some of the parts.  Whether it’s through recruiting or coaching tactics or both, Archie has clearly failed at the #1 mission of coaching, for 4 consecutive years.  He continues to fail at it even though he now has a team full of players who have played for no other college coach, leaving little to no hope it’s ever going to improve.  And that’s ultimately why I believe we have reached a point that a change must be made.

Of course, that begs the question of who to hire.  In my view, if IU wants to be a blue-blood program, now is the time it needs to act like one.  IU needs to identify who the grand slam hires are, and decide it’s going to go get one of them.  I disagree with those who say Indiana is no longer a top job.  Everything is still in place to win big.  IU just needs a coach that can effectively take advantage of all of it.  It requires more than a one-dimensional person.  It requires coaching ability, recruiting chops, and perhaps most importantly, the personality to thrive in a bright spotlight.

The 5 or 6 names I’d throw out there, I’m sure a lot of people would say about most of them, “he won’t come here.”  But I think Dolson needs to go after them with a blank check and a promise of full support until they file a restraining order against him.  We don’t need them all to say yes.  We only need one of them.  At this point, we desperately need one of them.

Welcome to the board and great post. 

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7 minutes ago, IUJoe said:

I’m new at posting here, but I thought I’d throw in my 2 cents, not for the sake of any argument, but just for another perspective.

Before this season, I was mainly on the side of “give Archie more time.”  I thought he needed 4 years, and I thought calls to fire him before that were premature.  Other very successful coaches have needed 3-4 years to turn things around.  And I thought some of the things I saw posted in the past couple years, particularly on one other site, really put IU and the fanbase in a poor light.

This season, though, Archie lost me.  I started losing hope after the home loss to Northwestern, and I have seen little since then that helps me regain any hope.  I’m a numbers guy, and the numbers aren’t good.  That being said, if it were just numbers alone that were poor, I might be inclined to give Archie another year.  It’s when I go beyond the numbers that I lose any hope he can get this turned around.

Two words I hear Archie say a lot are “confidence” and “togetherness.”  Archie’s teams have shown very little of either, particularly in the second half of seasons, in all 4 of his years.  He has often admitted that in press conferences.  Many times, in all 4 years, he has said “we lack confidence, and that affects our togetherness.” 

In year 1 or year 2, that may be understandable and excusable, and he was trying to coach players he didn’t recruit to a system they didn’t commit to, and blend them with players he did recruit.  Given the circumstances, maybe even a little still in year 3.  But it’s no longer understandable and excusable.  The team still lacks anything resembling confidence and togetherness.  As a result, the team rarely plays with enough passion and intensity to win at a level we all expect.  When it happened in year 1 and year 2, perhaps the blame was on some of the players.  When it’s happened all 4 years, the buck stops with the coach.

At the end of the day, a coach’s #1 mission is to blend the players into a cohesive unit that plays together, with the whole being greater than the some of the parts.  Whether it’s through recruiting or coaching tactics or both, Archie has clearly failed at the #1 mission of coaching, for 4 consecutive years.  He continues to fail at it even though he now has a team full of players who have played for no other college coach, leaving little to no hope it’s ever going to improve.  And that’s ultimately why I believe we have reached a point that a change must be made.

Of course, that begs the question of who to hire.  In my view, if IU wants to be a blue-blood program, now is the time it needs to act like one.  IU needs to identify who the grand slam hires are, and decide it’s going to go get one of them.  I disagree with those who say Indiana is no longer a top job.  Everything is still in place to win big.  IU just needs a coach that can effectively take advantage of all of it.  It requires more than a one-dimensional person.  It requires coaching ability, recruiting chops, and perhaps most importantly, the personality to thrive in a bright spotlight.

The 5 or 6 names I’d throw out there, I’m sure a lot of people would say about most of them, “he won’t come here.”  But I think Dolson needs to go after them with a blank check and a promise of full support until they file a restraining order against him.  We don’t need them all to say yes.  We only need one of them.  At this point, we desperately need one of them.

Great post. I can't agree with you more. I never ever thought at the beginning of the season that I would want a change. I've always thought Archie should get 6 years no matter what. 

Edited by addictedtoIU
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