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Why not some new line-ups - more minutes for bench guys?


DWB
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Assuming we don't make up MSU game in the next 4 weeks, and looking at the schedule going forward, I would not be surprised if we loose 6 out of the next 7 games, if we continue to play the way we did at home against PU, NE, NW, et al.

I (like some of you) have exhausted my patience with Archie's stubbornness of starting the same guys, game in, and game out. (yeah Phinesee started, but only because Armaan was hurt). And severely limiting the minutes of the next "generation".

If we're going to lose, (and that appears to be likely) let's get the younger guys some real minutes and experience in starting and dictating the flow of the game from the get go. Sit Lander down, one on one, and tell him to facilitate, not shoot from 3. Play Galloway's game. Hustle, cut, feed TJD and Race, and work your butt off on defense. Add Leal to the mix to compliment Armaan on offense. Leal showed some real grit on D for the past few games in the limited time he was in.

God only knows Archie is putting up with a ton of mistakes and no hustle from Durham and Phin, why not afford the younger guys the same consideration. I think they would grow up pretty fast.

IMO, one of the responsibilities of a coach is to maximize the strengths, and minimize the weaknesses of your players. It seems to me that Archie is trying to make limited talent guys play a defense that either: (1)  they can't comprehend and grasp, or (2) they don't give a damn. And on offense, we're taking shots by guys who can't shoot...at least not consistently. Leal and Armaan are the only 2 that I would consider actual shooters on the team. 

 

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3 minutes ago, IUwins0708 said:

I’ve said all season long that Race and Trayce shouldn’t play a lot of time together.  They should be subbing for one another.  If Brunk is healthy then it’s a different story.  Would love to see some small ball but we all know our last 2 coaches don’t like to change the lineups much

Brunk would make a big difference. I like Geronimo's long term potential, but in a few of our close losses when the other team went on a run it happened with him eating some of those backup big minutes. 

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I would love to see Lander play more, but if we have any chance to win, Archie can't play around with lineups of guys who aren't ready.  I can get behind your point in that I really don't think we're going to win more than 2 more regardless, so why not?  BUT... CAM can't take that attitude.  He's trying to win and although Al and Rob don't look great, he's starting the guys that give us the best chance to win and giving them big minutes.  He has started giving Hunter more time.  He has put Leal into the rotation.  Geronimo and Lander unfortunately will cost us if it's a close game.  I mean, TJD, Race, and Armaan clearly need to start and play big minutes.  If he were to rotate between Al, Rob, Galloway, Leal, and Hunter for those other two spots, fine, but is it going to make any difference?  As long as he is basing things off practice every day, the starting lineup is fine.  We just don't have better choices to help us win games right now.  

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11 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

 He has started giving Hunter more time.  He has put Leal into the rotation.  Geronimo and Lander unfortunately will cost us if it's a close game.  I mean, TJD, Race, and Armaan clearly need to start and play big minutes.  If he were to rotate between Al, Rob, Galloway, Leal, and Hunter for those other two spots, fine, but is it going to make any difference?  As long as he is basing things off practice every day, the starting lineup is fine.  We just don't have better choices to help us win games right now.  

After hearing Archie praise Leal and Hunter over the last couple of games, IMO starting them in lieu of Al & Rob would not be a step back. Durham is O-for at the free throw line (almost) in last few games. And STILL walks the ball up the court and dribbles the logo off it. Rob doesn't hustle at half the speed of Galloway. Hunter is playing much better at both ends, but still makes some mistakes, but so does Al & Rob. So I think starting Leal & Hunter would get us off to a better start, and maybe not dig us into the never ending hole we seem to want to establish every game. 

It's like we have to be down 8-12 pts before we wake up as a team and get serious about playing.

BTN ran a re-run of the IU/UK game with the Wat shot last night. If you look at the hustle, pace, and focus that team had compared to this team, it's not even in the same universe.

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6 minutes ago, DWB said:

After hearing Archie praise Leal and Hunter over the last couple of games, IMO starting them in lieu of Al & Rob would not be a step back. Durham is O-for at the free throw line (almost) in last few games. And STILL walks the ball up the court and dribbles the logo off it. Rob doesn't hustle at half the speed of Galloway. Hunter is playing much better at both ends, but still makes some mistakes, but so does Al & Rob. So I think starting Leal & Hunter would get us off to a better start, and maybe not dig us into the never ending hole we seem to want to establish every game. 

It's like we have to be down 8-12 pts before we wake up as a team and get serious about playing.

BTN ran a re-run of the IU/UK game with the Wat shot last night. If you look at the hustle, pace, and focus that team had compared to this team, it's not even in the same universe.

I definitely agree about how important the effort is.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of Al or Rob's games (I am a fan of them as kids) or how they are playing, but I personally don't see it as they're not playing hard.  I just don't think they are playing well.  I think we have and will continue to see Leal and Hunter get more of a role.  If CAM sees in practice and game performance that one of them deserves a start over Al or Rob, then great!

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3 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

If CAM sees in practice and game performance that one of them deserves a start over Al or Rob, then great!

I guess perhaps this ▲ ▲ is the real issue. Does he see it in practice, or is he so obsessed with "getting old" at the expense of getting better?

I have no doubt you guys that think Al & Rob are likely high minute guys, will be correct. I just remember a guy nick-named Mc Bob who changed games with his hustle, and heads up play. And...I'm just frustrated that we don't seem to have the attitude that successful teams have.

Archie's "even if its broke, don't fix it" behavior is wearing me down to where I'm not going to make my schedule around IU ball anymore. I'll DVR the game and watch it when I can. Sad...really sad. But I gave up golf because I didn't like spending $500/month to be pissed off all the time (my game got worse and worse).

IU Bball is rapidly heading in that direction.

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37 minutes ago, DWB said:

I guess perhaps this ▲ ▲ is the real issue. Does he see it in practice, or is he so obsessed with "getting old" at the expense of getting better?

I have no doubt you guys that think Al & Rob are likely high minute guys, will be correct. I just remember a guy nick-named Mc Bob who changed games with his hustle, and heads up play. And...I'm just frustrated that we don't seem to have the attitude that successful teams have.

Archie's "even if its broke, don't fix it" behavior is wearing me down to where I'm not going to make my schedule around IU ball anymore. I'll DVR the game and watch it when I can. Sad...really sad. But I gave up golf because I didn't like spending $500/month to be pissed off all the time (my game got worse and worse).

IU Bball is rapidly heading in that direction.

LOL.  Totally get that feeling.  I definitely agree, if CAM is seeing something different in practice, but just not wanting to rock the boat, he is making a huge mistake.  I can't imagine he'd be doing that when he knows how badly we need to start winning.  As pleasantly surprised as I've been by Galloway, at this point, he can't shoot.  As bad as our offense is, if we look at him like a McBob changing things due to hustle, but can't score, it doesn't help a ton.  I do love that he is unselfish and makes things happen, but he certainly has his flaws and they're showing up more and more.  Leal could be a different argument because he can shoot, but every time a guy has a good game, we seem to get a little overly excited.  Remember Al and Rob have had some good games.  I personally don't see Hunter as a hustle guy particularly, but he does give us a more offensive option than most.  I don't know what the answer is for this particular team.  Not sure there is one.  Of course, old school me wants to see us shoot very few 3s and move the ball well to get easy shots.  I'd love to run more to get more easy shots.  

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14 hours ago, IUFLA said:

People are already looking at replacements and yet we'd ask him to sacrifice wins to get the kids playing time?

It's like asking the guy with one foot in the grave to drop the banana peal...

Or you could look at it like it’s a guy with one foot in the grave to stop smoking...change his habits. Might not save his life in the end because of a lifetime of poor choices but it might buy him more time if he is willing to make an effort to do something different. Show those around him that love him he isn’t stubborn ol [email protected] that would rather die then change. Who knows..maybe just maybe he might save his life too. All I know is if he keeps things the same he isn’t likely to turn anything around. Perhaps he catches some synergy and we see the team wake up. It worked for Rob when he came off the bench he played some of his best ball..so why would it be shocking. Also it’s very likely next year is the make or break year and getting kids ready that will be in position next year to help him would be beneficial. I don’t think he should just cash in the season...definitely not...but would love to see him be more flexible with his defenses, lineups...they say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting the outcome to change. Right now we are losing at a frightening clip...we are very close to being below 500 on the season...to keep doing the same thing just shows a coach that has no answers...that isn’t a coach that looks like he even wants a 5th year.

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He is on the verge of the hot seat.  He values defense over offense and Rob and Al play better defense than any of our freshman.
Hunter couldn't guard me on defense and his offense is only slight better at this point (But getting better).  Leal, Lander and Galloway just don't have the defensive chops for CAM to play them as real starters and sit Rob and Al.

He can't give away wins at the expense of wins next year.  I hate it, you hate it and i'm sure he hates it.  But at the end of the day, he is trying to win games.

Edited by IowaHoosierFan
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15 hours ago, IUFLA said:

People are already looking at replacements and yet we'd ask him to sacrifice wins to get the kids playing time?

It's like asking the guy with one foot in the grave to drop the banana peal...

Exactly. 
 

CAM isn’t going to just give up like many people here and start playing worse players just to give them experience.

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Just now, dgambill said:

Or you could look at it like it’s a guy with one foot in the grave to stop smoking...change his habits. Might not save his life in the end because of a lifetime of poor choices but it might buy him more time if he is willing to make an effort to do something different. Show those around him that love him he isn’t stubborn ol [email protected] that would rather die then change. Who knows..maybe just maybe he might save his life too. All I know is if he keeps things the same he isn’t likely to turn anything around. Perhaps he catches some synergy and we see the team wake up. It worked for Rob when he came off the bench he played some of his best ball..so why would it be shocking. Also it’s very likely next year is the make or break year and getting kids ready that will be in position next year to help him would be beneficial. I don’t think he should just cash in the season...definitely not...but would love to see him be more flexible with his defenses, lineups...they say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting the outcome to change. Right now we are losing at a frightening clip...we are very close to being below 500 on the season...to keep doing the same thing just shows a coach that has no answers...that isn’t a coach that looks like he even wants a 5th year.

Come on @dgambill... You've watched the games. You've seen our freshmen play. They're one day going to be fantastic B1G basketball players. But throwing them out there right now has just as much of a chance of destroying their confidence as it does putting together a successful lineup with them.

And seriously..."losing at a frightening clip"?

You're a good poster that I respect...but hyperbole here helps no one...

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On a slightly different note of playing the bench more, especially the younger guys, with no fans in the stands to hassle them for the whole game, and lack of crowd noise to rattle them (pumped in crowd noise is different than the real thing), the environment is such where the guys could go out and get some experience, even if it's only 2-3 minutes at a time a couple/three times a game.

I'd hate to see our current freshman class get rattled next year when the stands are packed and loud.  And they're playing in hostile arenas and trying not to make mistakes. (assumption I know, but possible)

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3 minutes ago, DWB said:

On a slightly different note of playing the bench more, especially the younger guys, with no fans in the stands to hassle them for the whole game, and lack of crowd noise to rattle them (pumped in crowd noise is different than the real thing), the environment is such where the guys could go out and get some experience, even if it's only 2-3 minutes at a time a couple/three times a game.

I'd hate to see our current freshman class get rattled next year when the stands are packed and loud.  And they're playing in hostile arenas and trying not to make mistakes. (assumption I know, but possible)

I actually think having fans would help the young guys. These games, with no fans have little emotion. 

It is about experience, strength and execution. There are some exceptions, but I think the empty stadiums actually benefits the older, mature teams.

The problem is those "exceptions" seems to include our backcourt. 

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1 hour ago, DWB said:

On a slightly different note of playing the bench more, especially the younger guys, with no fans in the stands to hassle them for the whole game, and lack of crowd noise to rattle them (pumped in crowd noise is different than the real thing), the environment is such where the guys could go out and get some experience, even if it's only 2-3 minutes at a time a couple/three times a game.

I'd hate to see our current freshman class get rattled next year when the stands are packed and loud.  And they're playing in hostile arenas and trying not to make mistakes. (assumption I know, but possible)

I am not sure if there is a more subtle meaning here, but I think they do get close to this amount of playing time more or less: 

Mpg

Galloway:  23.1
Leal:          14.1
Lander:      7.6
Geronimo: 6.4

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3 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Come on @dgambill... You've watched the games. You've seen our freshmen play. They're one day going to be fantastic B1G basketball players. But throwing them out there right now has just as much of a chance of destroying their confidence as it does putting together a successful lineup with them.

And seriously..."losing at a frightening clip"?

You're a good poster that I respect...but hyperbole here helps no one...

6 losses 14 games into the season is scary if you plan on making the tournament. I don’t think playing all 4 freshman at once is a solution but I have no problem starting Leal or seeing less Rob and Al playing together if it means a little more Trey and Leal. I just think you have to split up that backcourt. It ain’t working and Al and Rob playing together is a horrible backcourt. 

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25 minutes ago, dgambill said:

6 losses 14 games into the season is scary if you plan on making the tournament. I don’t think playing all 4 freshman at once is a solution but I have no problem starting Leal or seeing less Rob and Al playing together if it means a little more Trey and Leal. I just think you have to split up that backcourt. It ain’t working and Al and Rob playing together is a horrible backcourt. 

I would like to see them play longer stretched.  say, leave lander in for 5-7 minutes instead of 1-2 then yanking him the first mistake.  Let him learn and lean on the others.  1-2 minutes at a time are not helping them.  Also, when you put Leal or Lander or Galloway in, run plays for them so they can get some open shots and built upon it.  Not just the same old offense and see what happens.

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On 1/18/2021 at 12:44 PM, IowaHoosierFan said:

I would like to see them play longer stretched.  say, leave lander in for 5-7 minutes instead of 1-2 then yanking him the first mistake.  Let him learn and lean on the others.  1-2 minutes at a time are not helping them.  Also, when you put Leal or Lander or Galloway in, run plays for them so they can get some open shots and built upon it.  Not just the same old offense and see what happens.

See we agree again! 

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