Age/Expectations

[TheWatShot]

11 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

Not feeling singled out but am curious how you thought my post inferred that we have changed coaches too often. That assumption isn’t even close to what I think. 

"coaching carousels generally don't work." 

[EvilleHoosier]

40.

My expectations are a .500 record or slightly below should be a down year and should only happen once every 3-4 years.  The way this season going and considering the schedule it looks like sub .500 is possible again, unless this teams wins some games it isn't supposed to.  If it works out that way, Archie will have had only one season with a conference record of at least .500, which was his 1st season here.  If Archie gets another year to prove himself, I want to see 12-13 conference wins, getting comfortably in the tournament and getting to the sweet 16.  I would also want improvement in roster management to feel confident about maintaining that level of success moving forward.  If TJD leaves early after this season, Archie better hope to be able to land an impact transfer or have a couple of guys show Armaan level improvement from this season to next.  

Also, start beating Purdue!

[IU Scott]

31 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

"coaching carousels generally don't work." 

Well in 20 years we have had 5 coaches which averages out to firing a coach every 4 years

[IUCrazy2]

39 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Well in 20 years we have had 5 coaches which averages out to firing a coach every 4 years

Yeah, Sampson kind of drags that average down though.  Davis got 6 and Crean got 9 years.

[TheWatShot]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Well in 20 years we have had 5 coaches which averages out to firing a coach every 4 years

If you're going to start with a timeframe that begins with firing Knight, I'll go a step further and make the numbers say what I want them to say: we've had 5 coaches in the last 50 years, which averages out to firing a coach every 10 years. 

 

 

[Hoosierfan1215]

I’m 31. I’m actually very good friends with an ex player of Archies at Dayton and have talked to him a few times so I feel a little more attached to Archie than some on here. I want Archie to succeed as we all do, however I think I’m ready if we went another direction. Tired of the same issues on the floor year after year. The baffling thing is they weren’t issues at Dayton, which leaves me perplexed. That being said if it isn’t a home run, try another year. No sense in reaching. If/when he isn’t our coach anymore I’ll share some stories that I’ve heard/talked about with my friend. 

[go_iu_bb]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan1215 said:

I’m 31. I’m actually very good friends with an ex player of Archies at Dayton and have talked to him a few times so I feel a little more attached to Archie than some on here. I want Archie to succeed as we all do, however I think I’m ready if we went another direction. Tired of the same issues on the floor year after year. The baffling thing is they weren’t issues at Dayton, which leaves me perplexed. That being said if it isn’t a home run, try another year. No sense in reaching. If/when he isn’t our coach anymore I’ll share some stories that I’ve heard/talked about with my friend. 

Does your friend have any insights/thoughts about what might be wrong. Does Miller seem any different or appear to be doing anything different from his time at Dayton? I'd love to hear the perspective of a former Miller player.

[Max]

31. I’m torn because obviously these results suck but I want to be as patient as possible. It’s a different ball game in the current era and now even more than ever.
 

This year’s especially unique with the transfer rule + eligibility, so we either need to be very careful in that all these Indiana kids could leave if archie goes and they don’t like the new guy, ruining momentum in state... or maybe it’s a perfect opportunity to start fresh because whoever we’d bring in could likely turn over the entire roster w the blink of an eye. OR good circumstances for Archie’s last stand.

I also agree with those before me that I’m not so high in getting rid of archie for a mid grade or even slightly above mid grade hire. It has to be home run(feeling like a broken record).

I’m sick of not having the talent. That’s the biggest consistency I’m seeing that’s concerning aside from kids not playing hard. Feel like we’re just getting insanely unlucky and/or not setting ourselves up for success by not getting the right skilled players. EX: we haven’t shot the ball well once in Archie’s tenure. Always gaps. How can you not construct a dang roster and ignore shooting.... 

 

[Air Ball]

9 hours ago, Hoosierfan1215 said:

I’m 31. I’m actually very good friends with an ex player of Archies at Dayton and have talked to him a few times so I feel a little more attached to Archie than some on here. I want Archie to succeed as we all do, however I think I’m ready if we went another direction. Tired of the same issues on the floor year after year. The baffling thing is they weren’t issues at Dayton, which leaves me perplexed. That being said if it isn’t a home run, try another year. No sense in reaching. If/when he isn’t our coach anymore I’ll share some stories that I’ve heard/talked about with my friend. 

Indiana fan and Dayton resident here.   Thanks for the post and the perspective.  

Not a basketball player, no inside information, just my own observations and opinions.  But, I saw differently than what I understand as some of your points in your post.  Archie Miller as head coach of Dayton did have big challenges.  But, he handled them.  

For instance, the cupboard was relatively bare and he got smart, active, talented basketball players to play as a team.  I would not say that he has been successful in those areas at IU...not enough to win in the B1G consistently.  Halfway through his time at Dayton the team was underperforming.  He had a locker room meeting with the players and asked them each in turn what their goals were, what their goals for the team were, and what they thought they could do to achieve them.  Turned that year around.  One year Dayton effectively only had 7 or 8 scholarship players.  

He, at Dayton, had really good guards, they played as a team, they did not give up, they played pack line defense well, they valued the ball, they fought for rebounds and screened for the shooters.  They did not hang around at the top of the key to set up the offense.  They moved the ball, cut and dished. Archie's substitutions made sense.  Plays after timeouts worked, generally.  And Archie adjusted to fit the matchups and other team's play.

So the real question to me is why has that all not worked at Indiana?  I have my opinions based upon theories that I have formed by watching IU teams since...the late sixties.  Indiana needs a very talented and smart point guard. Indiana needs a great shooting guard that can create. Indiana needs a wing that slashes and dishes. Indiana needs a guy underneath that refuses to lose.  Indiana needs more than one shooter that can hit and will.  Indiana needs a defensive specialist.  Indiana needs a glue guy.  Indiana needs a floor general.  

If I can see all of that, then why has Archie Miller not gotten that at Indiana in his time?  And more importantly, will he?  I can explain part of the deficiencies...But Archie Miller really has not had 4 years.  This is his fourth.  And the first year, arguably wasn't fully his recruiting wise in my opinion.   Excuses, excuses...this is not getting IU to where it needs to be.

 Indiana really seems to be tougher to put together.  RMK struggled at times, too. Mike Davis struggled at the end when recruiting and etc. didn't go his way.  Coach He Who Must Not Be Named was a very good coach...however...how did that work out with cheating and insurrection and IU administration imploding? Glad that the mouth got rid of the players that didn't want to grow up.  Crean never was a fit at IU...some of us knew that when he came to IU...what a snake-oil salesman he was.  He didn't know an X from an O but he could recruit athletes just not basketball players.  But Crean knew they had to be fast on offense...he just didn't get them to value the ball and play smart.

Some posters appear to look at Indiana through rose-colored glasses and assume that the right coach can wave a wand and voila...3 years later be on top of the world.  That coach may exist.  So, go get him.   Otherwise, give the guy we have the opportunity.

One poster on TOS said that Archie Miller's coaching is out of sync for today.  He was a 5'11" shooter as a PG.  Was methodical and slow...and coaches that way.  The only thing that I can say is that that is not what happened when he coached at Dayton.

The B1G has always been really tough.  It was a handful for RMK each and every year.  RMK's teams just refused to lose or else.   So why has Miller not gotten the right stuff together at IU? I think that the other B1G teams and the Butlers etc. passed IU over the last 2 decades and this coach has an uphill climb relative to 30 years ago. Plus, the recruiting focus on Indiana high school players sounds good for a bunch of reasons.  But, times have changed.  The basketball world has changed.  There are not as many hoops nailed up on poles in the side yards of Indiana families any more. The pipeline to IU is still kind of there.  But the choice players are spread out more nowadays.

Regardless, we desire that IU just has to get to the top...competing year after year in the top 1/3 of the B1G.  In the NCAAT every single year.  Good runs deep into the tourney once every four years.  And we have to hang a couple of banners before I pass away...and I'm on borrowed time as it is.

I say keep Archie Miller for a few more years...maybe.  Unless you can get a younger Coach K at IU.  But, bear in mind...Archie Miller will be a better coach than Sean Miller someday.  And Archie does not cheat and is smarter than Sean.   Give him time at IU.

[Hoosierfan1215]

42 minutes ago, Air Ball said:

Indiana fan and Dayton resident here.   Thanks for the post and the perspective.  

Not a basketball player, no inside information, just my own observations and opinions.  But, I saw differently than what I understand as some of your points in your post.  Archie Miller as head coach of Dayton did have big challenges.  But, he handled them.  

For instance, the cupboard was relatively bare and he got smart, active, talented basketball players to play as a team.  I would not say that he has been successful in those areas at IU...not enough to win in the B1G consistently.  Halfway through his time at Dayton the team was underperforming.  He had a locker room meeting with the players and asked them each in turn what their goals were, what their goals for the team were, and what they thought they could do to achieve them.  Turned that year around.  One year Dayton effectively only had 7 or 8 scholarship players.  

He, at Dayton, had really good guards, they played as a team, they did not give up, they played pack line defense well, they valued the ball, they fought for rebounds and screened for the shooters.  They did not hang around at the top of the key to set up the offense.  They moved the ball, cut and dished. Archie's substitutions made sense.  Plays after timeouts worked, generally.  And Archie adjusted to fit the matchups and other team's play.

So the real question to me is why has that all not worked at Indiana?  I have my opinions based upon theories that I have formed by watching IU teams since...the late sixties.  Indiana needs a very talented and smart point guard. Indiana needs a great shooting guard that can create. Indiana needs a wing that slashes and dishes. Indiana needs a guy underneath that refuses to lose.  Indiana needs more than one shooter that can hit and will.  Indiana needs a defensive specialist.  Indiana needs a glue guy.  Indiana needs a floor general.  

If I can see all of that, then why has Archie Miller not gotten that at Indiana in his time?  And more importantly, will he?  I can explain part of the deficiencies...But Archie Miller really has not had 4 years.  This is his fourth.  And the first year, arguably wasn't fully his recruiting wise in my opinion.   Excuses, excuses...this is not getting IU to where it needs to be.

 Indiana really seems to be tougher to put together.  RMK struggled at times, too. Mike Davis struggled at the end when recruiting and etc. didn't go his way.  Coach He Who Must Not Be Named was a very good coach...however...how did that work out with cheating and insurrection and IU administration imploding? Glad that the mouth got rid of the players that didn't want to grow up.  Crean never was a fit at IU...some of us knew that when he came to IU...what a snake-oil salesman he was.  He didn't know an X from an O but he could recruit athletes just not basketball players.  But Crean knew they had to be fast on offense...he just didn't get them to value the ball and play smart.

Some posters appear to look at Indiana through rose-colored glasses and assume that the right coach can wave a wand and voila...3 years later be on top of the world.  That coach may exist.  So, go get him.   Otherwise, give the guy we have the opportunity.

One poster on TOS said that Archie Miller's coaching is out of sync for today.  He was a 5'11" shooter as a PG.  Was methodical and slow...and coaches that way.  The only thing that I can say is that that is not what happened when he coached at Dayton.

The B1G has always been really tough.  It was a handful for RMK each and every year.  RMK's teams just refused to lose or else.   So why has Miller not gotten the right stuff together at IU? I think that the other B1G teams and the Butlers etc. passed IU over the last 2 decades and this coach has an uphill climb relative to 30 years ago. Plus, the recruiting focus on Indiana high school players sounds good for a bunch of reasons.  But, times have changed.  The basketball world has changed.  There are not as many hoops nailed up on poles in the side yards of Indiana families any more. The pipeline to IU is still kind of there.  But the choice players are spread out more nowadays.

Regardless, we desire that IU just has to get to the top...competing year after year in the top 1/3 of the B1G.  In the NCAAT every single year.  Good runs deep into the tourney once every four years.  And we have to hang a couple of banners before I pass away...and I'm on borrowed time as it is.

I say keep Archie Miller for a few more years...maybe.  Unless you can get a younger Coach K at IU.  But, bear in mind...Archie Miller will be a better coach than Sean Miller someday.  And Archie does not cheat and is smarter than Sean.   Give him time at IU.

Love the post. Watching his teams at Dayton he definitely preached defense but the offense had more movement and in general very good athletes to guard and switch 1-4. His competition is obviously tougher now game in and game out and he can’t just put hustle everyone. I think Archie is a good coach. I thought at Dayton he was a good coach. My biggest struggle is the standing around and missing open shots. idk how to fix that. A majority of the shots we are missing are good looks from 3. You need to put your players in a position to be successful and at Dayton internally and externally from what I know his players (most) loved playing for him and would do whatever for him. He’s definitely a character and has some quirks and I know he can do it, I just can’t figure out the shooting for the life of me..I’m hoping he turns it around because I genuinely like him, but Indiana today isn’t what it was. I’ve never seen the heyday of iu hoops, and our best in game coach in my time watching them is Sampson. I’m just don’t see how he turns it around and possibly losing Tjd won’t make next year any easier. We will see. 

[Hoosierfan1215]

8 hours ago, go_iu_bb said:

Does your friend have any insights/thoughts about what might be wrong. Does Miller seem any different or appear to be doing anything different from his time at Dayton? I'd love to hear the perspective of a former Miller player.

I will say he’s definitely feeling the pressure of it all. I think that goes along with the job in general but a difference this year because Of the confidence in this team compared to previous. And I was just talking to my friend the other day( after the pu game) and he talked about all the shooting drills they did and how much time Archie expected them to work on their shot outside of practice. He said concepts are basically the same and the level of athleticism each game is higher but that’s all throughout basketball right now. Quote here from my friend or something along these lines “ the Iu players don’t look to have the on court awareness and the want to make it work like we did “. Like I said just two guys talking about basketball and no real inside info but I always welcome his perspective being a former player of his and still playing basketball. 

[Maedhros]

I will never not be amazed to hear the coach who started with nothing and had a Big Ten title and consecutive Sweet Sixteen appearances in years four and five is a snake oil salesmen who didn't know and X from an O, yet our current coach who has done less with more will be fine, we just need to give him more time.

[JABBATHEHOOSIER]

I'm 36 and as much as I want to Archie to do well, I am done. I realize the team has improved defensively over his first few years, but the offense looks downright awful at times. The initial excitement of his hire quickly wore off for me and apathy began to set in during year 2. Since I was a child, my mood was directly tied to IU's wins and losses. When they lost I felt down for a couple of days and vice versa when they won. It bothers me to say that I no longer care.

This program should always strive to be elite, obviously, they aren't always going to hit that mark all the time, but the drive should always be there. And unfortunately, I no longer feel like that is a goal of this administration. Mediocrity has not only become the norm with our Hoosiers, it's become acceptable by the powers to be. This program is losing a generation of fans because of this attitude. And those of us who have been around for decades are starting to become frustrated and apathetic.

[Air Ball]

1 hour ago, Maedhros said:

I will never not be amazed to hear the coach who started with nothing and had a Big Ten title and consecutive Sweet Sixteen appearances in years four and five is a snake oil salesmen who didn't know and X from an O, yet our current coach who has done less with more will be fine, we just need to give him more time.

Valid perspective.  I can see why one would hold that view.  Crean did recruit and get talent.  Crean did get his teams to the Sweet 16.  Very nice that.

At times Crean had talent and a basketball player at the point that would get the ball across the half court and get assists or cut.  But, to me, it was clear that he did not value defense as a tool to keep the team competitive.  He did not substitute well.  He did not draw up good plays out of timeouts.  He did not seem to take advantage of matchups. The weave was the same as standing at the point and doing nothing.  He burned bridges with Indiana high school coaches.  Screens were limited.  And players were left to create on their own at the detriment of team play.  In Crean's last year IU was tied for 10th in the B1G. And when he left, the roster was relatively bare and it looked bad for the next coach.

And I also have the perspective that Archie didn't do less with more.  Since he has only had 3 years.  

The world has changed...the media, fans, and expectations are now based, it seems, on what can be done today.  Financially, everything seems to be based upon earnings per share (EPS) for the quarter of the year. Marketing is based upon the trend today...what is happening this afternoon.  Entertainment is shock, flash, and new.  Crean did overhype everything.  Archie Miller does not...so maybe he is not the flavor of the month.  

I do not see mediocrity becoming accepted at Indiana in sports.  I see just the opposite.  Glass put Indiana football and basketball in the position to get better.  His hire of Archie Miller and the contract that is place says, to me, that he was taking the long view.  3+ years is not long. 

[Inequality]

1 hour ago, Air Ball said:

Valid perspective.  I can see why one would hold that view.  Crean did recruit and get talent.  Crean did get his teams to the Sweet 16.  Very nice that.

At times Crean had talent and a basketball player at the point that would get the ball across the half court and get assists or cut.  But, to me, it was clear that he did not value defense as a tool to keep the team competitive.  He did not substitute well.  He did not draw up good plays out of timeouts.  He did not seem to take advantage of matchups. The weave was the same as standing at the point and doing nothing.  He burned bridges with Indiana high school coaches.  Screens were limited.  And players were left to create on their own at the detriment of team play.  In Crean's last year IU was tied for 10th in the B1G. And when he left, the roster was relatively bare and it looked bad for the next coach.

And I also have the perspective that Archie didn't do less with more.  Since he has only had 3 years.  

The world has changed...the media, fans, and expectations are now based, it seems, on what can be done today.  Financially, everything seems to be based upon earnings per share (EPS) for the quarter of the year. Marketing is based upon the trend today...what is happening this afternoon.  Entertainment is shock, flash, and new.  Crean did overhype everything.  Archie Miller does not...so maybe he is not the flavor of the month.  

I do not see mediocrity becoming accepted at Indiana in sports.  I see just the opposite.  Glass put Indiana football and basketball in the position to get better.  His hire of Archie Miller and the contract that is place says, to me, that he was taking the long view.  3+ years is not long. 

The problem with long view is every time it rains, the sugar cube shrinks. It’s too late for that. The recruiting world will not wait on you to gather your bearings.

Indiana has to be swift and on top of it. If things aren’t where they are supposed to be, make a change. Make a statement saying we mean business. I can’t imagine anyone not being able to do at least what the current staff has done thus far. 

I do think in 20 years, Miller will have enough experience and have the ability to be successful. I don’t think right now he has figured it out. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

This is some good conversation, @Air Ball and @Inequality make valid points even though they conflict and both do it respectfully and with some thought. Nice, and imo helpful in thinking out where we are, from different people's perspectives.

[Inequality]

16 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

This is some good conversation, @Air Ball and @Inequality make valid points even though they conflict and both do it respectfully and with some thought. Nice, and imo helpful in thinking out where we are, from different people's perspectives.

Respect, intelligent conversation and general humor is what makes this site the best on the net to discuss IU sports. I’d have a beer or water(Scott) with any of these people.

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, Inequality said:

Respect, intelligent conversation and general humor is what makes this site the best on the net to discuss IU sports. I’d have a beer or water(Scott) with any of these people.

No doubt this is the best and most civil IU board out there

[OLDIUFAN]

8 hours ago, Maedhros said:

I will never not be amazed to hear the coach who started with nothing and had a Big Ten title and consecutive Sweet Sixteen appearances in years four and five is a snake oil salesmen who didn't know and X from an O, yet our current coach who has done less with more will be fine, we just need to give him more time.

Crean didn’t lose his job for season 4 and 5, it was 6,7,8,9 that did him in. 
Archie is in trouble, unless something positive starts to happen right away! 
I am not talking moral victories. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

On 1/20/2021 at 8:29 PM, IU Scott said:

Well in 20 years we have had 5 coaches which averages out to firing a coach every 4 years

And has it worked? I think that’s the point, it hasn’t. Lack of patience can kill a program. I don’t know if Cam will prove right for IU long term but I’m pulling for him, and there’s time for him to show he is, and I really don’t want to see IU try to start over yet again and this early on. Pretty much a waste.

[IU Scott]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

And has it worked? I think that’s the point, it hasn’t. Lack of patience can kill a program. I don’t know if Cam will prove right for IU long term but I’m pulling for him, and there’s time for him to show he is, and I really don’t want to see IU try to start over yet again and this early on. Pretty much a waste.

No it has not worked, and I think the best thing for the program is for Archie to turn it around.  One I don't think there are many candidates that would be  a huge upgrade.  Two it would make the program take another step backwards and have to wait another few years to see if the new coach is any better.

[Brass Cannon]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

And has it worked? I think that’s the point, it hasn’t. Lack of patience can kill a program. I don’t know if Cam will prove right for IU long term but I’m pulling for him, and there’s time for him to show he is, and I really don’t want to see IU try to start over yet again and this early on. Pretty much a waste.

To be fair our shortest tenured coach was probably the best of the bunch 

[IUfaninIllinois]

On 1/18/2021 at 2:12 PM, IUwins0708 said:

I would love to see the age of some posters on here.  I’m guessing most of the younger posters 35 and under are still on board with Archie.  Not all but more posters that are older are the ones who are frustrated and ready for a coaching change.  Could be wrong, just more curious than anything.

I’ll be 36 next month. My position is this. I don’t necessarily like Archie’s personality on sidelines or with the media. I do not know how he is behind the scenes with the player. The only reason I don’t want a coaching change is because I’m tired of changing coaches like we have so often in my lifetime. If CAM isn’t the guy he isn’t the guy but the next guy better be absolutely perfect and ready to be here 10 or more years, can recruit his butt off, has the personality of Tom Allen, and embraces what IU basketball is all about. 

[FKIM01]

I'm 55 and have no desire to change coaches every 4-5 years. 

[BGleas]

45 minutes ago, IUfaninIllinois said:

I’ll be 36 next month. My position is this. I don’t necessarily like Archie’s personality on sidelines or with the media. I do not know how he is behind the scenes with the player. The only reason I don’t want a coaching change is because I’m tired of changing coaches like we have so often in my lifetime. If CAM isn’t the guy he isn’t the guy but the next guy better be absolutely perfect and ready to be here 10 or more years, can recruit his butt off, has the personality of Tom Allen, and embraces what IU basketball is all about. 

What don't you like about his personality?