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Knight vs. Archie


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I saw some comments in other threads that kind of touched me off a tad.  Let's make no mistake about it...Archie represents IU better than Knight did.  I wish mile was around to share that link he always posted to reveal all of Bobby's "transgressions."  Arch does things the right way, to the best of my knowledge, where as Knight did things his way.  Bobby was a poor representation of the state imo.  Archie, to me, is very likeable.  

The difference?  Bob won at an elite level early and often.  The state of our program weighs on me, but Archie is far better the "PR" guy than Knight ever was unless you count bad PR.

We, at the time, gave the General a pass.

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Oh boy.  Here we go.  Anyone is without a doubt a better PR guy than The General.  If we're just basing things off that, I am very thankful that CAM seems to be doing things the right way.  The General kept a clean program, graduated all of his guys, and won at a high level.  I don't think many people would have said he was a bad representation of the state back then.  It was a way different time.  Of course he did some crazy things that are inexcusable, but more guys were doing things like that than people realize.  They were just better at not getting it out to the media/public.  I thought Crean was a great PR guy too.  Ty Cobb and Pete Rose were not of Hall of Fame character, but their baseball abilities were Hall of Fame worthy.       

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2 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

Oh boy.  Here we go.  Anyone is without a doubt a better PR guy than The General.  If we're just basing things off that, I am very thankful that CAM seems to be doing things the right way.  The General kept a clean program, graduated all of his guys, and won at a high level.  I don't think many people would have said he was a bad representation of the state back then.  It was a way different time.  Of course he did some crazy things that are inexcusable, but more guys were doing things like that than people realize.  They were just better at not getting it out to the media/public.  I thought Crean was a great PR guy too.  Ty Cobb and Pete Rose were not of Hall of Fame character, but their baseball abilities were Hall of Fame worthy.       

You are exactly right, different times and eras.  I’ll stay out of this one after this comment.  

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13 minutes ago, rico said:

I saw some comments in other threads that kind of touched me off a tad.  Let's make no mistake about it...Archie represents IU better than Knight did.  I wish mile was around to share that link he always posted to reveal all of Bobby's "transgressions."  Arch does things the right way, to the best of my knowledge, where as Knight did things his way.  Bobby was a poor representation of the state imo.  Archie, to me, is very likeable.  

The difference?  Bob won at an elite level early and often.  The state of our program weighs on me, but Archie is far better the "PR" guy than Knight ever was unless you count bad PR.

We, at the time, gave the General a pass.

Oh, and I have no problem with Archie as likeable, but my dad and friends that still live in Indiana actually disagree with that.  They say he comes off very smug and cocky.  Again, I don't feel that way, but likeable may not be an absolute.  

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3 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

Oh, and I have no problem with Archie as likeable, but my dad and friends that still live in Indiana actually disagree with that.  They say he comes off very smug and cocky.  Again, I don't feel that way, but likeable may not be an absolute.  

Has your Dad or any of his friends met him face to face?

I've known a lot of people who maybe come off that way in telcons, phone calls, in person meetings, or Zoom meetings who were anything but...

And I'll say this about Coach Knight...

Some of the stuff he did was overblown in the press...a lot wasn't...

But I think he knew either way they were never his friends and would turn on him or even the coaches that did have a good relationship with them at the drop of a hat...and he was right...

So he took every opportunity to provoke them...

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3 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Has your Dad or any of his friends met him face to face?

I've known a lot of people who maybe come off that way in telcons, phone calls, in person meetings, or Zoom meetings who were anything but...

And I'll say this about Coach Knight...

Some of the stuff he did was overblown in the press...a lot wasn't...

But I think he knew either way they were never his friends and would turn on him or even the coaches that did have a good relationship with them at the drop of a hat...and he was right...

So he took every opportunity to provoke them...

No sir.  I have no proof, video, or quotes for you.  Just saying that was how they took him.  My dad attended a lot of games the last few seasons and says he watched him interact with a lot of people.  That's about it.  I don't necessarily agree with him.  I was pointing out that you may not be able to just make a blanket statement about how likeable he is.  I really don't care how likeable he is to be honest.  I agree with all of your points here.  

Edited by NCHoosier32
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6 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Bob Knight would be unable to hold a job in today's college athletics.  That said, much of what he did was accepted back in the 70's and 80's not because he won, but because society in general did not think the things he did was that big of a deal at the time.  Things started to change in the mid 90's, when society as a whole started to distance itself from things Bob did.

That said, can anyone ever imagine Archie in a photo like this one?  Knight had a bond with many of his players that is unmatched, not just when compared to Archie, but when compared to the vast majority of coaches out there.

Yeah.  I'd let my kid play for that guy.

See the source image

 

Same

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9 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Bob Knight would be unable to hold a job in today's college athletics.  That said, much of what he did was accepted back in the 70's and 80's not because he won, but because society in general did not think the things he did was that big of a deal at the time.  Things started to change in the mid 90's, when society as a whole started to distance itself from things Bob did.

That said, can anyone ever imagine Archie in a photo like this one?  Knight had a bond with many of his players that is unmatched, not just when compared to Archie, but when compared to the vast majority of coaches out there.

Yeah.  I'd let my kid play for that guy.

See the source image

 

Mr. Reed?  Is that you?  LOL

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1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

A picture tells a thousand words.  Some people respond to tough love and other do not. 

Not sure when the photo was taken, but let's assume it was when AJ was a senior.  AJ was a freshman when the Reed incident took place.    So, he was there and saw it first hand.  It's my amateur opinion, but based on that photo, I don't think AJ gives a flying you know what about the Reed incident.

Not defending what Knight did to Reed, but bad moments like that should not totally diminish all the good things a man does.  Knight did a lot for the university and made a positive influence on a lot of young men's lives.  His style would not work in today's world, but the world is not necessarily better because of that.   

Well said.

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1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

A picture tells a thousand words.  Some people respond to tough love and other do not. 

Not sure when the photo was taken, but let's assume it was when AJ was a senior.  AJ was a freshman when the Reed incident took place.    So, he was there and saw it first hand.  It's my amateur opinion, but based on that photo, I don't think AJ gives a flying you know what about the Reed incident.

Not defending what Knight did to Reed, but bad moments like that should not totally diminish all the good things a man does.  Knight did a lot for the university and made a positive influence on a lot of young men's lives.  His style would not work in today's world, but the world is not necessarily better because of that.   

I need you to write the stuff I’m thinking.  Very well stated!! You are a better writer than you are husband I’m guessing......😂😂

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5 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

A picture tells a thousand words.  Some people respond to tough love and other do not. 

Not sure when the photo was taken, but let's assume it was when AJ was a senior.  AJ was a freshman when the Reed incident took place.    So, he was there and saw it first hand.  It's my amateur opinion, but based on that photo, I don't think AJ gives a flying you know what about the Reed incident.

Not defending what Knight did to Reed, but bad moments like that should not totally diminish all the good things a man does.  Knight did a lot for the university and made a positive influence on a lot of young men's lives.  His style would not work in today's world, but the world is not necessarily better because of that.   

And I'm sure Knight did "worse" stuff to many others than what he did to Reed. What always gets me about that whole situation was that Reed (RIP, can't believe its been 8+ years now) was tough enough to pop his shoulder back into place to keep playing, but ends up being involved with CNN 3 years later to bring the choking claim to attention when he likely saw and experienced worse during his time at IU. 

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2 minutes ago, cybergates said:

And I'm sure Knight did "worse" stuff to many others than what he did to Reed. What always gets me about that whole situation was that Reed (RIP, can't believe its been 8+ years now) was tough enough to pop his shoulder back into place to keep playing, but ends up being involved with CNN 3 years later to bring the choking claim to attention when he likely saw and experienced worse during his time at IU. 

Doesn't make much sense does it?  Felling.

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I've always felt that Archie just assumes players are going to give 100% every play.  At smaller schools like Dayton, you get a lot of guys who were passed up by bigger schools and have a chip on their shoulder.  Those guys don't need a coach to motivate them to play hard.  A guy like McRoberts would probably dive on the floor or take a charge in a father son game.  He didn't need that extra push.  I feel like Archie was probably that way when he played too.  At the B1G level, a lot of players are different.  A big part of your job is motivating kids.  During practice, during games, getting them to work outside of practice.  I've always thought that was a weakness of Archie's.

Like some of you guys were kind of getting at, there is a fine line between being a hardass and being an asshole.  I'm not old enough to remember much of Knight, but he seemed to do a great job of walking that line with the players.  Being really tough on guys, but still caring about them and being there for them.  If you show you care about someone, you'll get a lot more out of them than you will if you are on them constantly.  I don't think Miller is too much of a hardass to them, but I've never thought he gives off much of a caring vibe.

I've read a few things that say Tom Allen is demanding and tough in practices, but he obviously loves those guys and they love him back.  They'd do anything for him.  It doesn't seem like we've had any players of Archie's that seem to really like him like you see with the football team.  Obviously we only see 1% of what goes on, but I've always thought it seems more like a boss/employee relationship than a mentor/mentee relationship.

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35 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

A picture tells a thousand words.  Some people respond to tough love and other do not. 

Not sure when the photo was taken, but let's assume it was when AJ was a senior.  AJ was a freshman when the Reed incident took place.    So, he was there and saw it first hand.  It's my amateur opinion, but based on that photo, I don't think AJ gives a flying you know what about the Reed incident.

Not defending what Knight did to Reed, but bad moments like that should not totally diminish all the good things a man does.  Knight did a lot for the university and made a positive influence on a lot of young men's lives.  His style would not work in today's world, but the world is not necessarily better because of that.   

Make no mistake, the General raised a ton of money for the university. On a personal note, I had a father-in-law that was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer. My nephews, who were attending IU at the time, contacted the athletic department to get their papaw an autographed basketball from RMK. RMK responded by telling the boys that if their papaw was physically able to get to Bloomington, he would see to it that he could attend a ballgame and sit right behind the bench! Unfortunately my FIL could not make it, but he did receive a signed basketball! This goes a long way with me....

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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Bob Knight would be unable to hold a job in today's college athletics.  That said, much of what he did was accepted back in the 70's and 80's not because he won, but because society in general did not think the things he did was that big of a deal at the time.  Things started to change in the mid 90's, when society as a whole started to distance itself from things Bob did.

That said, can anyone ever imagine Archie in a photo like this one?  Knight had a bond with many of his players that is unmatched, not just when compared to Archie, but when compared to the vast majority of coaches out there.

Yeah.  I'd let my kid play for that guy.

See the source image

 

That is the picture that AJ has in the background when he is doing his podcast

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