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2 Steps Forward at Iowa and 3 Steps back Today


mcity
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Inexcusable to come home off of the Iowa game and pretty much get out-everything'd today.  If we don't have an aberration from deep (we shot 10-16 for 63%) we easily lose this game by double digits.  TDJ played weak, he doesn't spread out in the post and go after the ball, too many times he lets the defender come around him for a deflection or steal.  He isn't ready for the league, he is too soft right now and needs to develop a mean streak.   And I am done with Hunter, I had high hopes but I just can't anymore, he does some good things and then out of the blue makes multiple boneheaded plays....the bad outweighs the good, he reminds me of a poor man's Troy Williams (not in ability but boneheaded plays) with no hops.  If it was me, Geronimo would be playing the majority of Hunter's minutes and Jerome would become a spot guy, 4 min. a half to spell guys.  I like Geronimo and he plays with a hunger, we need his energy badly.  And why take Lander out?  He played his best game today and he is the future, leave him out there and let him get more of this trial by fire....this year is pretty much bust anyway.  I am beginning to think the Iowa game was more about them and less about us.  Taking IU +3.5 live in game only added insult to injury....very frustrating to say the least and I don't have much hope now for the next 3 games, Michigan, Illinois and Iowa.

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33 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

I think the saying is one step forward, two steps back.:coffee:

Also, welcome to the board so long as you aren't a troll.  There is a fire archie thread sand after each game a post game thread.  

yeah, I know the saying, but we all thought the Iowa game was more than 1 step and today was definitely more than 2...hence what I wrote.  Thanks for the welcome and not a troll, I'm a '97 IU Bloomington grad.  

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1 hour ago, mcity said:

yeah, I know the saying, but we all thought the Iowa game was more than 1 step and today was definitely more than 2...hence what I wrote.  Thanks for the welcome and not a troll, I'm a '97 IU Bloomington grad.  

True dat sadly.  The highs are high and the lows are low.  Have we played this record already?

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10 hours ago, mcity said:

Inexcusable to come home off of the Iowa game and pretty much get out-everything'd today.  If we don't have an aberration from deep (we shot 10-16 for 63%) we easily lose this game by double digits.  TDJ played weak, he doesn't spread out in the post and go after the ball, too many times he lets the defender come around him for a deflection or steal.  He isn't ready for the league, he is too soft right now and needs to develop a mean streak.   And I am done with Hunter, I had high hopes but I just can't anymore, he does some good things and then out of the blue makes multiple boneheaded plays....the bad outweighs the good, he reminds me of a poor man's Troy Williams (not in ability but boneheaded plays) with no hops.  If it was me, Geronimo would be playing the majority of Hunter's minutes and Jerome would become a spot guy, 4 min. a half to spell guys.  I like Geronimo and he plays with a hunger, we need his energy badly.  And why take Lander out?  He played his best game today and he is the future, leave him out there and let him get more of this trial by fire....this year is pretty much bust anyway.  I am beginning to think the Iowa game was more about them and less about us.  Taking IU +3.5 live in game only added insult to injury....very frustrating to say the least and I don't have much hope now for the next 3 games, Michigan, Illinois and Iowa.

Didn't even watch this game but i knew it would be a let down after the Iowa game!  I can't tell you if its a coaching thing or a talent thing but I will lean towards the guys on the floor to blame!  I still blame Jerome Hunter & Rob Phinesee for not being the key pieces that both looked so promising early on in their careers!  Today, please tell me what our issue was since I didn't get a chance to get pissed off?  What happened to playing at the HALL?  

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6 hours ago, NotIThatLives said:

True dat sadly.  The highs are high and the lows are low.  Have we played this record already?

Life Long Born Hoosier here asking a serious question since I have no clue what to think these days!!!  Is it Talent or Coaching?  Serious question my friend that this entire fanbase needs to question!  All I heard for the last 10 yrs is the next coach needs to lock down the state to turn things around??  So far the state has been locked down but IU has yet to make the field of 64, even with a top tier All American?  I'm lost, is the State talent the best route for a championship or is the home talent overrated?   All I see is a bunch of broke ass shooters that is embarrassing to be a HOOSIER, so may our in state talent is overrated!  

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1 minute ago, BornHoosier said:

Life Long Born Hoosier here asking a serious question since I have no clue what to think these days!!!  Is it Talent or Coaching?  Serious question my friend that this entire fanbase needs to question!  All I heard for the last 10 yrs is the next coach needs to lock down the state to turn things around??  So far the state has been locked down but IU has yet to make the field of 64, even with a top tier All American?  I'm lost, is the State talent the best route for a championship or is the home talent overrated?   All I see is a bunch of broke ass shooters that is embarrassing to be a HOOSIER, so may our in state talent is overrated!  

Even a really good lemon 🍋 isn’t going to produce much without a really good juicer.

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9 minutes ago, Inequality said:

Even a really good lemon 🍋 isn’t going to produce much without a really good juicer.

Then it's time to find the lemons that fit this program!!!  All I see is the best Indiana recruits not getting it done in this system but not sure if its too early to tell?  I give it 2-3 yrs before making serious judgement?  

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3 hours ago, BornHoosier said:

Life Long Born Hoosier here asking a serious question since I have no clue what to think these days!!!  Is it Talent or Coaching?  Serious question my friend that this entire fanbase needs to question!  All I heard for the last 10 yrs is the next coach needs to lock down the state to turn things around??  So far the state has been locked down but IU has yet to make the field of 64, even with a top tier All American?  I'm lost, is the State talent the best route for a championship or is the home talent overrated?   All I see is a bunch of broke ass shooters that is embarrassing to be a HOOSIER, so may our in state talent is overrated!  

I think Indiana (state not school) is a lot like the B1G has been for the last 20 years or so.  Our floor is a LOT higher than most and we produce VERY smart, skilled glue guys that pop up on rosters all over the country.  And i think thats what IU has right now, a bunch of glue with no real studs to hold together.

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5 hours ago, BornHoosier said:

Life Long Born Hoosier here asking a serious question since I have no clue what to think these days!!!  Is it Talent or Coaching?  Serious question my friend that this entire fanbase needs to question!  All I heard for the last 10 yrs is the next coach needs to lock down the state to turn things around??  So far the state has been locked down but IU has yet to make the field of 64, even with a top tier All American?  I'm lost, is the State talent the best route for a championship or is the home talent overrated?   All I see is a bunch of broke ass shooters that is embarrassing to be a HOOSIER, so may our in state talent is overrated!  

I do not know.

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6 hours ago, BornHoosier said:

Life Long Born Hoosier here asking a serious question since I have no clue what to think these days!!!  Is it Talent or Coaching?  Serious question my friend that this entire fanbase needs to question!  All I heard for the last 10 yrs is the next coach needs to lock down the state to turn things around??  So far the state has been locked down but IU has yet to make the field of 64, even with a top tier All American?  I'm lost, is the State talent the best route for a championship or is the home talent overrated?   All I see is a bunch of broke ass shooters that is embarrassing to be a HOOSIER, so may our in state talent is overrated!  

I would say they were over rated if the ones that went to other schools didn’t pan out.  Sure some don’t, but the majority are good contributors to successful programs.  Look at all the kids that went to MSU, most of them made it to a final four and then the NBA.  The ones that went to Purdue, of course they’ll never make a final four but seem to develop nicely.  It seems to me it’s an IU problem as it stands right now.  To me it looks like the chemistry of every single Archie team while he’s been at IU has some sort of issue.  I thought the biggest issue was Justin Smith and Romeo, nope doesn’t appear to be them. I personally think Archie plays favorites but that’s probably just me.  AF is definitely one of his favorites (mine too) but his leash is way longer than say KL’s or even JH’s. I really don’t know, it’s tough to figure out.   Wish I had a solid answer as to why the chemistry is amuck but it certainly seems that way to me.

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So, I went back and looked at all of the recruiting classes since Archie Miller got to Indiana...The linked ratings are from 247 for the state of Indiana (since that seems to be the focus...in state recruiting)

First Class 

As you can see, IU got #1 (Romeo), #3 (Damezi), #4 (Rob) from the state of Indiana. UCLA got #2 (Tyger Campbell), Michigan State got #5 (Aaron Henry), and Purdue got #6 (Eric Hunter)

IU of course also got Jerome Hunter (#56 nationally) and Jake Forrester (#147 Nationally) so a pretty good haul, at least from the rating standpoint, for Archie.

Campbell starts for UCLA. Here are his numbers...He Red Shirted as a freshman.

TC.PNG.5418621a92f385ec48613ff75015cb74.PNG

Here are Henry's numbers...He's been an off and on starter (more on) for 3 years.

AH.thumb.PNG.4e97f0a9feda2bf5b9be4c13361f6169.PNG

And Hunter's 

EH.PNG.41f0a9fb1eecf5c0123a9e8c882b30f0.PNG

I think the only real miss here was taking Damezi over Aaron Henry. I think Scott has stated that we were in the running with Aaron, but once Damezi signed, we stopped contact.

Here are Rob's numbers in comparison to Hunter and Campbell...

RP.PNG.ee69247986bf95740bda8deb576de26d.PNG

So Rob has been better than Campbell, better than Hunter as a freshman, worse as a sophomore (injuries didn't help), and about even as juniors. I don't think by any measure, especially taking Jerome's initial injury into account, anybody who is objective could say we didn't "win" that recruiting war.

Second Class

Washington got #1 Isaiah Stewart (who averaged 17 points, 8.8 rebounds and 2.1 blocks per game for the Huskies in the one year he was there...now with the Pistons)

#2 Keion Brooks went to UK

#3 TJD (who, from this standpoint looks like the best get of the top 3)

#4 Gerald Drumgoole went to Pitt (and has 30 total points in 2 years)

#5 Brandon Newman went to Purdue

#6 Armaan Franklin went to us, of course

We added no players from out of state...

The valid comparison, at least to me would be Newman who Red Shirted his freshman year)...We got 2 starters from this class...So a "win" from my viewpoint...

BN.PNG.24667ae5d3faaf31bb7fb2e92bbb6e5d.PNG

VS Armaan

AF.PNG.b802b0b0ca118fb34a19a7a367776c38.PNG

Kinda close, but I think I'd still take Armaan...

3rd Class

IU got #1 (Lander), #5 (Leal), #6 (Galloway) along with out of state #103 overall Geronimo

#2 Ivey went to Purdue

#3 D'Andre Davis went to Louisville (9 PPG 25% from 3) 

#4 Nijel Pack went to Kansas State (11 ppg 37% from 3)

#7 Kiyron Powel went to Houston (limited minutes 2 ppg)

#8 Tony Powell went to Iowa (limited minutes less than 1 ppg)

So I think we did pretty well there, too...

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

So, I went back and looked at all of the recruiting classes since Archie Miller got to Indiana...The linked ratings are from 247 for the state of Indiana (since that seems to be the focus...in state recruiting)

First Class 

As you can see, IU got #1 (Romeo), #3 (Damezi), #4 (Rob) from the state of Indiana. UCLA got #2 (Tyger Campbell), Michigan State got #5 (Aaron Henry), and Purdue got #6 (Eric Hunter)

IU of course also got Jerome Hunter (#56 nationally) and Jake Forrester (#147 Nationally) so a pretty good haul, at least from the rating standpoint, for Archie.

Campbell starts for UCLA. Here are his numbers...He Red Shirted as a freshman.

TC.PNG.5418621a92f385ec48613ff75015cb74.PNG

Here are Henry's numbers...He's been an off and on starter (more on) for 3 years.

AH.thumb.PNG.4e97f0a9feda2bf5b9be4c13361f6169.PNG

And Hunter's 

EH.PNG.41f0a9fb1eecf5c0123a9e8c882b30f0.PNG

I think the only real miss here was taking Damezi over Aaron Henry. I think Scott has stated that we were in the running with Aaron, but once Damezi signed, we stopped contact.

Here are Rob's numbers in comparison to Hunter and Campbell...

RP.PNG.ee69247986bf95740bda8deb576de26d.PNG

So Rob has been better than Campbell, better than Hunter as a freshman, worse as a sophomore (injuries didn't help), and about even as juniors. I don't think by any measure, especially taking Jerome's initial injury into account, anybody who is objective could say we didn't "win" that recruiting war.

Second Class

Washington got #1 Isaiah Stewart (who averaged 17 points, 8.8 rebounds and 2.1 blocks per game for the Huskies in the one year he was there...now with the Pistons)

#2 Keion Brooks went to UK

#3 TJD (who, from this standpoint looks like the best get of the top 3)

#4 Gerald Drumgoole went to Pitt (and has 30 total points in 2 years)

#5 Brandon Newman went to Purdue

#6 Armaan Franklin went to us, of course

We added no players from out of state...

The valid comparison, at least to me would be Newman who Red Shirted his freshman year)...We got 2 starters from this class...So a "win" from my viewpoint...

BN.PNG.24667ae5d3faaf31bb7fb2e92bbb6e5d.PNG

VS Armaan

AF.PNG.b802b0b0ca118fb34a19a7a367776c38.PNG

Kinda close, but I think I'd still take Armaan...

3rd Class

IU got #1 (Lander), #5 (Leal), #6 (Galloway) along with out of state #103 overall Geronimo

#2 Ivey went to Purdue

#3 D'Andre Davis went to Louisville (9 PPG 25% from 3) 

#4 Nijel Pack went to Kansas State (11 ppg 37% from 3)

#7 Kiyron Powel went to Houston (limited minutes 2 ppg)

#8 Tony Powell went to Iowa (limited minutes less than 1 ppg)

So I think we did pretty well there, too...

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a really nice comparison. The issue is when the sum of the parts = middle of the pack Big 10 team four straight years, the individual comparisons don't really matter. 

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Just now, CincyHoosier said:

This is a really nice comparison. The issue is when the sum of the parts = middle of the pack Big 10 team four straight years, the individual comparisons don't really matter. 

I think it does take one part of the "fire Archie" crowds argument away. 

You know, I really don't mind people debating any subject, especially something really irrelevant in the grand scheme of thigs as basketball is, but I prefer fact driven arguments. All of this "Archie looks like" or "the players seem like" doesn't do it for me. We always get the results argument (which is very valid) followed by the "player development" and "recruiting" arguments to back that up...

I just don't see the recruiting argument as one that has any real traction. We can talk about the ones that got away til we're blue in the face, but I think CAM has done a pretty decent job there...

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OP said it well. The end result is minus one step. Iowa win was very nice, but in the end, this team proved it's vastly inconsistent. 

These kids somehow think they've earned to take a game off after a very nice win. 

Thanks IU men's basketball for a free rollercoaster every year. I don't need to go to Six Flags any more. No rollercoaster can match this level of peaks and valleys. 

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I think it's the start now ability guard misses.  

CAM went real hard at Darius Garland and Kira Lewis.  Both would have been huge.  Even if short lived, it paves the road for high end talent to come in and look good.  Instead it was pedestrian guards and an injured Romeo.  

Then went hard after Tre Mann, Quinones, Bouknight, and DJ carton.  All those dudes would be starting over Al and Rob.  

 

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6 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I think it does take one part of the "fire Archie" crowds argument away. 

You know, I really don't mind people debating any subject, especially something really irrelevant in the grand scheme of thigs as basketball is, but I prefer fact driven arguments. All of this "Archie looks like" or "the players seem like" doesn't do it for me. We always get the results argument (which is very valid) followed by the "player development" and "recruiting" arguments to back that up...

I just don't see the recruiting argument as one that has any real traction. We can talk about the ones that got away til we're blue in the face, but I think CAM has done a pretty decent job there...

For Indiana to be were we all want it they need a couple more top 50 recruits on the roster.  Or, our current players need to develop more significantly than their current rate, even considering Franklin's jump this year.  Just think if Franklin was a top 50 recruit level talent instead of 120-130s.  His development since last year would place him in NBA draft conversations instead of solid power 5 starter conversations.  So, I agree the recruiting or player development are not solely to blame, but you have to improve in at least one of those areas to take a step forward.  

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6 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

I think it's the start now ability guard misses.  

CAM went real hard at Darius Garland and Kira Lewis.  Both would have been huge.  Even if short lived, it paves the road for high end talent to come in and look good.  Instead it was pedestrian guards and an injured Romeo.  

Then went hard after Tre Mann, Quinones, Bouknight, and DJ carton.  All those dudes would be starting over Al and Rob.  

 

I guess you have to choose between the "lockdown Indiana" or "recruit nationally" fight...I know you can do both, and he did with that first class...

I think in the "appeal" category, Indiana has an advantage with Indiana kids...I know we made the final cuts of some of the kids you mentioned, but they chose other schools. 

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11 minutes ago, CincyHoosier said:

For Indiana to be were we all want it they need a couple more top 50 recruits on the roster.  Or, our current players need to develop more significantly than their current rate, even considering Franklin's jump this year.  Just think if Franklin was a top 50 recruit level talent instead of 120-130s.  His development since last year would place him in NBA draft conversations instead of solid power 5 starter conversations.  So, I agree the recruiting or player development are not solely to blame, but you have to improve in at least one of those areas to take a step forward.  

Not sure you can really extrapolate the higher recruit ranking to increased development. There are top 50 kids who never progress to being even good players at the college level.

I've always thought a lot of it hinged on maturity and work ethic...Some kids reach their playing potential in high school...The better competition exposes that...

 

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Just now, IndySportsPartizan said:

We recruited Aaron Henry, I think it was down to IU and MSU and he chose MSU. 

Scott worked with Aaron's Dad...I think he's has said many times that once Damezi Anderson signed with IU, they stopped calling Aaron...

Damezi committed to IU on 7/17/2017...Aaron committed to MSU on 9/11/2017...

That was probably one of the bigger mistake CAM has made...

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