rico Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 I wasn't gonna respond to this thread, but @5foulsstopped the "bleeding"(ty bro) I will. TBH, this '21 class has me scratching my head so much I have trouble seeing '22 and beyond. We have struck out on the crown jewels within the state. And I find myself wondering how and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 45 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Valid points. How many of those 19 are going to BIG schools? I kind of flipped through a week or two ago to see who we were listed with and it seemed like Michigan, Michigan State, and Ohio State were already off to good starts on their 2022 class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 29 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said: How many of those 19 are going to BIG schools? I kind of flipped through a week or two ago to see who we were listed with and it seemed like Michigan, Michigan State, and Ohio State were already off to good starts on their 2022 class. OSU has 3 verbal commits from Top 150 recruits in 2022 already. MSU and Purdue have 2 each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 38 minutes ago, 5fouls said: OSU has 3 verbal commits from Top 150 recruits in 2022 already. MSU and Purdue have 2 each. Yeah, I just looked at Top 100 and it looked like OSU had 2 guys in Top 75. MSU has 2 in Top 50. Michigan had one in Top 50. Purdue had one in Top 100. That is a pretty good start for all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSaccamanno Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 Looking through some lists, we are after AJ Casey and Jalen Washington who are 5 stars. Regarding Washington, people have mentioned MSU and Purdue but they have a ton of guys already at the big positions. Either of those would be an odd choice for Washington. We are after a bunch of guys in that 75-150 zone. Of course, Gunn is rated around 100 and we’ve got our fingers crossed. SF Alex Karaban is another. He’s around 75. Others: for bigs we are listed with Shawn Phillips and Jaren Reed. Point guard Avery Brown is another. We’ve talked about these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippopotamo Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 I think we’ll be active in the transfer market this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 This is a perfectly legitimate discussion topic. If the posts contained within it talk about Archie's poor performance, that's not a problem. When you have the perspective (true or false) that a coach is underperforming, it finds its way into every conversation. I get it, that's frustrating, but this is about as big of a macro-level problem for IUBB as anyone could imagine. We talk for hours about FT shooting and defensive schemes which, in comparison, are child's play in comparison to the behemoth topic of "is our Coach up to the task?" So, at the end of the day, yes - this is a topic that will come up in every thread. We can try and traffic cop it a little bit but, at the end of the day, doing much more would be tantamount to a whole lot of censorship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowhunter Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 2 hours ago, 5fouls said: OSU has 3 verbal commits from Top 150 recruits in 2022 already. MSU and Purdue have 2 each. So discouraging! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th&Jackson Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 3 hours ago, 5fouls said: OSU has 3 verbal commits from Top 150 recruits in 2022 already. MSU and Purdue have 2 each. 35 minutes ago, Bowhunter said: So discouraging! It's baffling. I compared IU's assistants' bios to OSU's and on paper, IU's appear stronger. Likewise, prior to their current gigs, CAM's resume was better than Holtman's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftheref Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 21 hours ago, snowling said: https://www.thehoosiernetwork.com/2021/02/01/for-first-time-in-iu-tenure-archie-millers-recruiting-momentum-is-slowing/ Go Hoosiers! Again, thank you for everything you do for HSN. Another top notch post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 20 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said: It's baffling. I compared IU's assistants' bios to OSU's and on paper, IU's appear stronger. Likewise, prior to their current gigs, CAM's resume was better than Holtman's. I think because basketball seems easy to turnaround because it takes less players that people underestimate how much program momentum and luck play into this. I understand Matta had some health issues the last year or two, but Holtman took over a program that Matta had positioned as a premier program for over a decade. Multiple conference titles, multiple conference tournament titles and multiple Final Fours and Elite 8's. Even with the drop Matta had the last year or two, that momentum and stability matters. Same with Juwan Howard. His transition has been made much more seamless due to taking over what Beilein had established. I'm not saying that means Archie is doing a great job or that he shouldn't be doing better by now, just saying Archie didn't start in the same place as Holtman or Howard for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippopotamo Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 1 minute ago, BGleas said: I think because basketball seems easy to turnaround because it takes less players that people underestimate how much program momentum and luck play into this. I understand Matta had some health issues the last year or two, but Holtman took over a program that Matta had positioned as a premier program for over a decade. Multiple conference titles, multiple conference tournament titles and multiple Final Fours and Elite 8's. Even with the drop Matta had the last year or two, that momentum and stability matters. Same with Juwan Howard. His transition has been made much more seamless due to taking over what Beilein had established. I'm not saying that means Archie is doing a great job or that he shouldn't be doing better by now, just saying Archie didn't start in the same place as Holtman or Howard for that matter. Dude thank you. People also compare Archie to Tom Allen and that bugs me too. The IU football momentum was on the upswing from Kevin Wilson. Coach Allen took us to the next level but it wasn’t a total restart like Archie’s tenure has been taking over a mediocre Tom Crean roster with a totally new system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 1 minute ago, Hippopotamo said: Dude thank you. People also compare Archie to Tom Allen and that bugs me too. The IU football momentum was on the upswing from Kevin Wilson. Coach Allen took us to the next level but it wasn’t a total restart like Archie’s tenure has been taking over a mediocre Tom Crean roster with a totally new system. I'm even going back further than just Crean. Archie, and even his successor if IU does end up going in a different direction, are trying to turn something around that has been inconsistent and quite frankly disappointing for the better part of 25 years. In this case, it's easier to take something over that has been successful for 10-15 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maedhros Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 6 hours ago, Hippopotamo said: I think the only recruit that Archie has really missed on is Kaufman, and there’s extra focus on it because he went to Purdue. If he chose Virginia I think it would still sting, but the “recruiting is dead” fanbase probably wouldn’t have been as riled up about it. Fans point to Kaufman, Patterson, Miller, and Furst as the examples of misses, but Duncomb negates Furst completely, Patterson was always a NOVA lean, and any stretch 4 that we recruited after Kaufman was going to be a long shot anyway. IU currently only has one scholarship left anyway and has seemingly gotten 80% of their main targets so I don’t really get how people can genuinely say recruiting has slowed down at this point. IU has always needed official visits in order to get elite out of state talent, and COVID has created a landscape where most guys are either committing early to stay close to home, or prolonging their recruitments and hoping they can take official visits sometime in the not so distant future. Until IU missed on Kaufman I could not find one message that said Archie has struggled with recruiting. It just feels like an easy narrative that has recently taken off to check another box as to why Archie isn’t the guy. Archie's been terrific - until Kaufman and Furst - if your goal is to recruit the state. But his goal is to win games, and that's why I've been concerned about recruiting pretty much since after his first class. I've read plenty of discussion on this and other sites to explain our struggles, saying the veteran guards just aren't good enough, we lack shooting, we're thin in the frontcourt, etc. Any explanation for why we remain on the bubble that implies our roster isn't good enough, to me points back to recruiting. Landing Romeo was great. Trayce and Lander too. But take a long look at our offer list after those guys. You'll pass a lot of familiar names as you go down the rankings before you get to the instate kids who committed to our program. DJ Carton, Tyrell Terry, James Bouknight, Keion Brooks, Zeke Nnaji, Caleb Love, Andre Curbelo, Dawson Garcia, RJ Davis. Now Mason Miller and Aminu Mohammed. All of these were serious targets at one point. That's not hitting on 80% of your targets, unless, again, you're only talking about in state kids. But it's never mattered to me where a kid is from once he puts on the jersey. I just want Indiana Basketball to win games, and I'm concerned Archie's recruiting has not brought in the talent commensurate to win at the level we expect and demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th&Jackson Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 27 minutes ago, BGleas said: I'm even going back further than just Crean. Archie, and even his successor if IU does end up going in a different direction, are trying to turn something around that has been inconsistent and quite frankly disappointing for the better part of 25 years. In this case, it's easier to take something over that has been successful for 10-15 years. Oh there's no doubt. CH got a huge break out of the gate when he took over a 17-15 team that had Bates-Diop return from injury to be B1G player of the year. Despite some players leaving, that team still had three other top 100 players plus CJ Jackson, Micah Potter, etc. That was a nice boost to get kick-started. Juwan Howard had the rare opportunity to be handed the keys to a well-oiled machine. By contrast, IU's had key injuries, coaching turnover and several near misses on recruits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUDan93 Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 IU basketball ain't front page news anymore. I feel like something special has to happen the rest of the way. We have got to be more than a 10 seed in both tournaments. I think this because I just don't see a big jump coming next year. Yes we may be a little better, but if TJD leaves than I see no way that we are making a step up. This puts us at year 6 with no top 4 finish in the Big and maybe something like an overall tournament record of 1-2 or 2-2. Add to this the obvious fact that we are already lagging behind the top of the league in recruiting 21 and 22 classes. I like the core of 4 year players we have.... Leal, Galloway, Franklin, Geronimo, but we all know that adding players ranking 100+ will not move us up. Sorry for the doom and gloom, but I see no clear path toward relevancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 35 minutes ago, Maedhros said: Archie's been terrific - until Kaufman and Furst - if your goal is to recruit the state. But his goal is to win games, and that's why I've been concerned about recruiting pretty much since after his first class. I've read plenty of discussion on this and other sites to explain our struggles, saying the veteran guards just aren't good enough, we lack shooting, we're thin in the frontcourt, etc. Any explanation for why we remain on the bubble that implies our roster isn't good enough, to me points back to recruiting. Landing Romeo was great. Trayce and Lander too. But take a long look at our offer list after those guys. You'll pass a lot of familiar names as you go down the rankings before you get to the instate kids who committed to our program. DJ Carton, Tyrell Terry, James Bouknight, Keion Brooks, Zeke Nnaji, Caleb Love, Andre Curbelo, Dawson Garcia, RJ Davis. Now Mason Miller and Aminu Mohammed. All of these were serious targets at one point. That's not hitting on 80% of your targets, unless, again, you're only talking about in state kids. But it's never mattered to me where a kid is from once he puts on the jersey. I just want Indiana Basketball to win games, and I'm concerned Archie's recruiting has not brought in the talent commensurate to win at the level we expect and demand. You will never hit on 80 percent getting prospects. If you offer 20 players in a class you will usually get 3 or 4 at the most. Even great GM's in pro ball only hit around 50 percent on their draft picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 18 minutes ago, IU Scott said: You will never hit on 80 percent getting prospects. If you offer 20 players in a class you will usually get 3 or 4 at the most. Even great GM's in pro ball only hit around 50 percent on their draft picks. You got numbers/articles to support this? Asking for a friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 19 minutes ago, IU Scott said: You will never hit on 80 percent getting prospects. I asked 11 women to marry me. 9 said yes. That's 81.8 percent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, rico said: You got numbers/articles to support this? Asking for a friend. As for the GM part I was going off what Bill Polin has said in interviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 1 minute ago, 5fouls said: I asked 11 women to marry me. 9 said yes. That's 81.8 percent. Taking them hostage doesn't count Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 Scott just posterized me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th&Jackson Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, 5fouls said: I asked 11 women to marry me. 9 said yes. That's 81.8 percent. 3 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Taking them hostage doesn't count 1 minute ago, 5fouls said: Scott just posterized me. That really was a strong take by Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Scott just posterized me. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jv1972iu Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 11 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Scott just posterized me. Bada Bing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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