Jump to content

TIME TO ASK THE QUESTION


jojo123
 Share

Recommended Posts

Are we recruiting the right players. Are we attractive to the right players. Are we just recruiting athletes? 

Basketball is filled with the six two to six six swing man. So that leaves the six seven and over recruits as the most sought after recruit in the country. and out of those very few are dominant big men. We have a good one in Trace but he is one dimensional so on a great team he would be a power forward who we wouldn't rely on anything but his inside game. We have to be able to get that dominant big recruit once every three years to be a top team again. Once we can do that and surround him with players with shooters and role players. We can be Indiana again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mean as much as I want to complain about the recruiting, I'm not sure.  I mean, I do contend by the numbers we don't have the talent that most Hoosier teams have had.  At the same time, it's certainly no perfect science.  You miss on some guys.  You are wrong about some guys.  You are pleasantly surprised by some guys.  Add to that that we are not the name we used to be, and it's tough.  We need more 25-75 guys in my opinion than we are getting, but that's also easier said than done.  As for the skill set?  Sure, it is good to get diversity.  I mean you can look at Lander as a true PG, Leal as a pure SG, Galloway as a wing, and Geronimo as a power forward.  That's pretty diverse skill set for one class.  I don't know.  So frustrating.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Justin Smith had 19 points, 0 Turnovers yesterday against #10.

It's the system - IU is very easy to prepare for.  They don't change.  Teams know how to get them to switch on D and get mismatches.  On offense, there is little movement to get quick hitters. And, they go through unprecedented scoring droughts.

Furthermore, have anyone noticed that other teams in the Big Ten players look bigger, stonger and quicker?  Stength, not height wise.

Edited by Fiveoutofsix
  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the injuries have stunted the growth of our upperclassmen which has directly harmed Archie’s model of getting old and staying old. Brunk is out, Hunter lost an entire year and regressed, Race lost over a year but to hit credit is doing well, and Rob doesn’t seem to be the same after his injury. So we have a situation where 4 out of 5 of our players who have been in the program for 3 years have had serious injuries, and then you have Al who is asked to do more than he’s capable of on a regular basis. Our freshmen and sophomores are more talented players, but outside of Trayce and Armaan to an extent, they don’t have the experience yet to really carry a squad to another level. We’re in a position where we can’t exactly punt on this year and play for the future, so we’re stuck hoping our veterans step up on a game to game basis, because our freshmen aren’t really ready to carry the burden. 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Hippopotamo said:

I think the injuries have stunted the growth of our upperclassmen which has directly harmed Archie’s model of getting old and staying old. Brunk is out, Hunter lost an entire year and regressed, Race lost over a year but to hit credit is doing well, and Rob doesn’t seem to be the same after his injury. So we have a situation where 4 out of 5 of our players who have been in the program for 3 years have had serious injuries, and then you have Al who is asked to do more than he’s capable of on a regular basis. Our freshmen and sophomores are more talented players, but outside of Trayce and Armaan to an extent, they don’t have the experience yet to really carry a squad to another level. We’re in a position where we can’t exactly punt on this year and play for the future, so we’re stuck hoping our veterans step up on a game to game basis, because our freshmen aren’t really ready to carry the burden. 

Interesting perspective, and could be true.  Here are some counter points for perspective.

Race reclassified and came to IU early, part of the sell was to clean up some leg injuries.  The concussion was no doubt difficult, unfortunate and unique.  

Rob looked better his frosh year because Langford demanded a double team and a focus, something that hasn't happened since he left.  This changes the other guards effectiveness.

Hunter we never really observed play, and his leg injury was devastating for him and thank gd not life threatening.  But, he could of been hyped up like every other IU recruit.  The scouting report out of hugh high school was that he was good, but not overly athletic.  

One has to think they will get better, and like any IU student and alumni, I hope for the best. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

You've brought up Justin Smith a few times now. 19 points with 0 TO is a good game but that isn't a typical game for him. In fact, his stats this season are very similar to those from last season against a much weaker schedule. So it's not as though he left and became an amazing player.  He left and became the same player he was at IU. Maybe his leadership is better as you mentioned in another post, I don't know, but I doubt it.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/justin-smith-3.html

I agree with a lot of the rest of your post but maybe stop using Smith as someone who improved after leaving. That just doesn't hold up.

I totally agree. I have watched Smith play a couple times this year. I thought he looked even worse then when at IU. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

You've brought up Justin Smith a few times now. 19 points with 0 TO is a good game but that isn't a typical game for him. In fact, his stats this season are very similar to those from last season against a much weaker schedule. So it's not as though he left and became an amazing player.  He left and became the same player he was at IU. Maybe his leadership is better as you mentioned in another post, I don't know, but I doubt it.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/justin-smith-3.html

I agree with a lot of the rest of your post but maybe stop using Smith as someone who improved after leaving. That just doesn't hold up.

I've watched him a couple of times too, and the only difference I saw in his game from his IU days is he doesn't play defense even half the time for Arkansas.

  • Like 6
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know the answer for why they haven't added more size than what you see, but the question is valid.

Is it Archie not want multiple slow, plodding bigs? Is it only recruiting a small number of them and missing more often than not? Is it a style of of play that bigs are not attracted to? Has anyone ever asked Archie these questions?

What we do know is IU has seldom had more than two legit bigs on the team in the past 30 years. We also know elite teams from coast to coat generally have 4 or more in the 6'9 to 7'0 range who can play or are developing for the future. 

IU seems unwilling or incapable of adding depth with size, which leaves us where we are today. One solid 6'9, one developing 6'8 trying his best to battle the monsters of the B1G, and one injured 6'11 who hasn't played all season. 

Where are the big kids who grew up loving Indana basketball who want to develop for a season or two? Where is next TJD future star? Where is the grad transfer or juco to help for a season? I dont see anything like this happening currently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Euroclydon said:

I don't know the answer for why they haven't added more size than what you see, but the question is valid.

Is it Archie not want multiple slow, plodding bigs? Is it only recruiting a small number of them and missing more often than not? Is it a style of of play that bigs are not attracted to? Has anyone ever asked Archie these questions?

What we do know is IU has seldom had more than two legit bigs on the team in the past 30 years. We also know elite teams from coast to coat generally have 4 or more in the 6'9 to 7'0 range who can play or are developing for the future. 

IU seems unwilling or incapable of adding depth with size, which leaves us where we are today. One solid 6'9, one developing 6'8 trying his best to battle the monsters of the B1G, and one injured 6'11 who hasn't played all season. 

Where are the big kids who grew up loving Indana basketball who want to develop for a season or two? Where is next TJD future star? Where is the grad transfer or juco to help for a season? I dont see anything like this happening currently.

I'll point out that we had 2 players, Jake Forrester, and Clifton Moore, who fit your criteria, but left over playing time.

In today's atmosphere, it's difficult to balance development versus a kid's desire to play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, go_iu_bb said:

You've brought up Justin Smith a few times now. 19 points with 0 TO is a good game but that isn't a typical game for him. In fact, his stats this season are very similar to those from last season against a much weaker schedule. So it's not as though he left and became an amazing player.  He left and became the same player he was at IU. Maybe his leadership is better as you mentioned in another post, I don't know, but I doubt it.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/justin-smith-3.html

I agree with a lot of the rest of your post but maybe stop using Smith as someone who improved after leaving. That just doesn't hold up.

Not so much that he improved, that's not what I am trying to communicate.  Many of us, including me, blamed Smith for some of this issues.  Turns out Smith was a kid that played maybe the most minutes during the previous two yeas and he was not the problem.  This team has similar identity and patterns.

Justin did it in the classroom, and he could of been a very good player this year.  Gonzaga is not exactly playing a tough conference schedule, however players play and you can see good play.  Justin Smith could of helped this team, but he didn't beleive in the system.  

To me it is symbolic and as fans, and I was one, we make up excuses to support a coach.  Reflecting based on this year, a Smith, wins games not looses them.  

Edited by Fiveoutofsix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Fiveoutofsix said:

Not so much that he improved, that's not what I am trying to communicate.  Many of us, including me, blamed Smith for some of this issues.  Turns out Smith was a kid that played maybe the most minutes during the previous two yeas and he was not the problem.

Justin did it in the classroom, and he could of been a very good player this year.  Gonzaga is not exactly playing a tough conference schedule, however players play and you can see good play.  Justin Smith could of helped this team, but he didn't beleive in the system.  

To me it is symbolic and as fans, and I was one, we make up excuses to support a coach.  Reflecting based on this year, a Smith, wins games not looses them.  

I was with you up until the last sentence. Arkansas has a better record than IU, sure, but I don't think that's because of Smith. IU's record is very similar to with Smith so he it's not as though he was elevating IU to more wins in his 3 seasons under Miller. But I agree, the problem with the state of the team is not on one or two players but seems to be systemic whether that is the coaching staff or the administration or a combination of those.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It’s hard to talk frankly without talking candidly about players, but to the extent I can, I try not to bury existing players.  I’m nowhere near perfect on this.  I am sure there are other posters who don’t really let loose in general.  

But now that he’s gone, I will say I really didn’t like Smith...at all.  Not my kind of player. I could give my reasons but they’d be harsh.  Suffice it to say, I don’t think he’s a winning player, at least here.  He’d make my all time disliked IU team with the Bracey Wrights of the world.  Total addition by subtraction.  

One thing I wish Archie would do is put the screws to the kids who don’t hold their end of the bargain.  A frank conversation and tough love can be just what’s needed.  I think permissiveness leads to complacency and failure to correct behavior/habits/mistakes.  

For better or worse, Archie seems really loyal to his veterans and he’s willing to ride with them to the end.  There are some pluses to that in the rapport he builds with them and goodwill in the locker room.  But IMO the permissiveness makes it harder to fix basic faults in a player.

 

Edited by BobSaccamanno
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

I was with you up until the last sentence. Arkansas has a better record than IU, sure, but I don't think that's because of Smith. IU's record is very similar to with Smith so he it's not as though he was elevating IU to more wins in his 3 seasons under Miller. But I agree, the problem with the state of the team is not on one or two players but seems to be systemic whether that is the coaching staff or the administration or a combination of those.

I have only watched one Arkansas game and that was the last one.  Nor do I want the point I'm trying to discuss get lost.  To me, right now you do some soal searching with philosophy of the system and structure.  Defense wins championships, but you need to score more than the other team.  There are alot of things I would like to see different from the Head Coach at IU, but if IU doesn't care about the off the court stuff at least hire an assistant who is known for offensive schemes.  No negative in that, Phil Jackson is not who he was with out Tex.  

Edited by Fiveoutofsix
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

It’s hard to talk frankly without talking candidly about players, but to the extent I can, I try not to bury existing players.  I’m nowhere near perfect on this.  I am sure there are other posters who don’t really let loose in general.  

But now that he’s gone, I will say I really didn’t like Smith...at all.  Not my kind of player. I could give my reasons but they’d be harsh.  Suffice it to say, I don’t think he’s a winning player, at least here.  He’d make my all time disliked IU team with the Bracey Wrights of the world.  Total addition by subtraction.  

One thing I wish Archie would do is put the screws to the kids who don’t hold their end of the bargain.  A frank conversation and tough love can be just what’s needed.  I think permissiveness leads to complacency and failure to correct behavior/habits/mistakes.  

For better or worse, Archie seems really loyal to his veterans and he’s willing to ride with them to the end.  There are some pluses to that in the rapport he builds with them and goodwill in the locker room.  But IMO the permissiveness makes it harder to fix basic faults in a player.

 

Ha!  And, I liked Wright and feel if Sean May joined that team it would of been lights out.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I asked this before, but in the first few years - was the staff mainly focusing on Indiana kids just because they are from Indiana and maybe missing out on some other kids?   
 

Archie also made a change and hired Kenya - and thus far he’s brought in Stewart.  So - part of me thinks Archie recognized the recruiting deficiencies and made a change.   Thats a step in the right direction.  Anxious to see how recruiting unfolds this off-season and once Kenya gets through a full normal cycle. 

Edited by Bustout
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, BobSaccamanno said:

You’re a great poster and I enjoy reading your thoughts. But on this one, we will never agree lol.  And that’s ok.  It’d be boring if we all just agreed and nodded constantly.  
 

 

Agree!  Dissent is healthy and creates discussion.  And, man is Sean May played at IU....the dude recruited Strickland and Wright....and one phone call from Coach Knight.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Fiveoutofsix said:

Justin Smith had 19 points, 0 Turnovers yesterday against #10.

It's the system - IU is very easy to prepare for.  They don't change.  Teams know how to get them to switch on D and get mismatches.  On offense, there is little movement to get quick hitters. And, they go through unprecedented scoring droughts.

Furthermore, have anyone noticed that other teams in the Big Ten players look bigger, stonger and quicker?  Stength, not height wise.

Justin Smith had some really good games at IU, too. The reality is he hasn't really improved despite going to a worse conference. 

Edited by KoB2011
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jojo123 said:

So why are we not attractive to that big man recruit out there. Is it style of play? Is it reputation? We can only get one every once in a great while. 

I would say our big men over the last decade stack up pretty favorably to any team in the country. I think our bigger issue has been an inability to get elite guards. 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Fiveoutofsix said:

Agree!  Dissent is healthy and creates discussion.  And, man is Sean May played at IU....the dude recruited Strickland and Wright....and one phone call from Coach Knight.  

To be clear.  Love Sean May as a player. Losing him was a shock and major blow.  I was more talking about Wright.  

There was so much talent in the aughts that we could have potentially landed under better circumstances or if we were smarter.  There was potential for an incredible decade.  But the program was a mess.  

Sean May.  Luke Harangody.  Dominic James.  Tyler Zeller.  Matt Howard. That’s without getting into Greg Oden, Mike Conley, and Deshaun Thomas and others.   We could have had a stellar decade.  It’s frustrating. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

To be clear.  Love Sean May as a player. Losing him was a shock and major blow.  I was more talking about Wright.  

There was so much talent in the aughts that we could have potentially landed under better circumstances or if we were smarter.  There was potential for an incredible decade.  But the program was a mess.  

Sean May.  Luke Harangody.  Dominic James.  Tyler Zeller.  Matt Howard. That’s without getting into Greg Oden, Mike Conley, and Deshaun Thomas and others.   We could have had a stellar decade.  It’s frustrating. 

I know, that was me dreaming of what could of been.  And, some of those you mentioned might of been lost do to a wrong mail letter or not showing all in pressence until plan a didn't work out 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Bustout said:

I asked this before, but in the first few years - was the staff mainly focusing on Indiana kids just because they are from Indiana and maybe missing out on some other kids?   
 

Archie also made a change and hired Kenya - and thus far he’s brought in Stewart.  So - part of me thinks Archie recognized the recruiting deficiencies and made a change.   Thats a step in the right direction.  Anxious to see how recruiting unfolds this off-season and once Kenya gets through a full normal cycle. 

Very good post and food for thought.  I’ve applauded the inside out philosophy.  And we’ve landed Duncomb and Hunter from Ohio.  

But with Kenya, we are branching out and hot after some DC area kids.  I’ve got a nephew who starts on his high school team over there.  The competition is decent.  There’s talent there.  

I’d like to see us really prioritize Illinois.  Our championship teams had heavy Illinois influence too.  Non-exhaustive examples would be Buckner in 1976, Isiah in 1981, Daryl in 1987.  

Ohio State got Liddell from Illinois and Washington from Cali.  Maybe we click with a kid from far away.  Also, as much as his brother Sean has gotten involved in the international market, I’m surprised we haven’t gotten more involved there.  

This off-season will be fascinating.  I’m hoping for some moves for adding juice like OSU did with Sueing and Walker.  Maybe there’s a phenom from overseas, a big time transfer, and/or a major talent who decommits that maybe we pull.  

Edited by BobSaccamanno
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BobSaccamanno said:

It’s hard to talk frankly without talking candidly about players, but to the extent I can, I try not to bury existing players.  I’m nowhere near perfect on this.  I am sure there are other posters who don’t really let loose in general.  

But now that he’s gone, I will say I really didn’t like Smith...at all.  Not my kind of player. I could give my reasons but they’d be harsh.  Suffice it to say, I don’t think he’s a winning player, at least here.  He’d make my all time disliked IU team with the Bracey Wrights of the world.  Total addition by subtraction.  

One thing I wish Archie would do is put the screws to the kids who don’t hold their end of the bargain.  A frank conversation and tough love can be just what’s needed.  I think permissiveness leads to complacency and failure to correct behavior/habits/mistakes.  

For better or worse, Archie seems really loyal to his veterans and he’s willing to ride with them to the end.  There are some pluses to that in the rapport he builds with them and goodwill in the locker room.  But IMO the permissiveness makes it harder to fix basic faults in a player.

 

This is a University that prioritizes 'optics' and student athlete rights over giving the coach what he needs to win and frankly, winning in general. 

I would say that Indiana needs to hire a Jack Swarbrick to bring in a Brian Kelly or the Alabama equivalent but that would be implying that Indiana actually wants to be big time again in any way. I don't believe they do.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...