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Pack Line Question


Bustout
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I understand it inherently could be weak vs the 3, but, how did Rutgers and Minn score so many points just driving at the bucket?   
 

Lack of help?  Break down and missing assignments?  I’m not an X and O guy, but it would seem if guys were packed, it should be hard to drive right at the center of it.   

Losing to NW and Purdue was because of 3s. Rutgers was because they drove all game.    Minny did that a lot in the 1st half especially. 

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5 minutes ago, Bustout said:

I understand it inherently could be weak vs the 3, but, how did Rutgers and Minn score so many points just driving at the bucket?   
 

Lack of help?  Break down and missing assignments?  I’m not an X and O guy, but it would seem if guys were packed, it should be hard to drive right at the center of it.   

Losing to NW and Purdue was because of 3s. Rutgers was because they drove all game.    Minny did that a lot in the 1st half especially. 

It is the lack of not keeping the driver in front of the defender.  Al is not very good on ball defender and let his guy drive right past him a lot in the first half.

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1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

It is the lack of not keeping the driver in front of the defender.  Al is not very good on ball defender and let his guy drive right past him a lot in the first half.

In the event that happens, schematically, is someone supposed to collapse from the wing or a big man pop up to force a pass?

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Just now, Bustout said:

In the event that happens, schematically, is someone supposed to collapse from the wing or a big man pop up to force a pass?

They are supposed to but tonight it did not seem like TJD or Race did a good job at being a rim protector.  Also when they help is when the teams start killing us from 3

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3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

They are supposed to but tonight it did not seem like TJD or Race did a good job at being a rim protector.  Also when they help is when the teams start killing us from 3

So for IUs personnel, it would be better for Race or TJD to come up opposed to a wing collapsing leading to a wide open 3 (assuming a slow rotation from elsewhere?).  Makes sense.  Thanks!

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7 hours ago, IU Scott said:

It is the lack of not keeping the driver in front of the defender.  Al is not very good on ball defender and let his guy drive right past him a lot in the first half.

Bardo kept saying that Minny needed to get past our first level of defenders. In many cases that was Al. I think we need to clean things up, but Minnesota did have some great finishers who could get buckets by putting the ball high up on the glass. Made me wish that we had the ability to get over defending bigs instead of plowing into them. 

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I made a point a couple times to really watch Al on defense! He didn’t play a very good defensive game. A lot of times he didn’t slide in to help, he just kind of half ran after his guy going though the lane. Following 5 or 6 ft behind his man. 
Not his best effort. 
 

I have one more question. I never saw Galloway play in High School. Can he shoot at all. Are did he just take everything to to rim. 

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50 minutes ago, OLDIUFAN said:

I made a point a couple times to really watch Al on defense! He didn’t play a very good defensive game. A lot of times he didn’t slide in to help, he just kind of half ran after his guy going though the lane. Following 5 or 6 ft behind his man. 
Not his best effort. 
 

I have one more question. I never saw Galloway play in High School. Can he shoot at all. Are did he just take everything to to rim. 

I didn't see him play either but from everything I read he wasn't a great shooter in HS. He injured his shooting wrist 2 years in a row which may have hurt his development in that area. 

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49 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

I didn't see him play either but from everything I read he wasn't a great shooter in HS. He injured his shooting wrist 2 years in a row which may have hurt his development in that area. 

He and Race in at the same time is like 3 vs 5 on offense.   They were both on top of the key a couple times together and minny defenders were at least 5 feet off both of them.     
 

Good defensive lineup but tuff O

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10 hours ago, HoosierFaithful said:

I would be very curious on a film review how our defense is now versus how it was five weeks ago. It feels noticeably worse. 

Al Durham left a game December 1 because of twisting his right ankle...believe it was the Texas game.   He is not the only one with an ankle that isn't likely 100%. That plus the Minny guards are really quick.  Carr is great at creating a shot and getting a step on an opponent.  Everyone is walking wounded... The defense sure seemed to work overall though.  Kept Minny's score relatively low.  Except for those turnovers.  Guys didn't quit.  Look at the assists and the rebounds...too.

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Pack line is basically a sagging man to man defense. The guy guarding the ball is up close and working to prevent a drive getting past them while the rest are sagging off their man and in position to close off the drive and force a pass. Don't allow the offense into the lane. By preventing the drive to the lane you hope to force a contested shot from distance. The idea being you are gambling the other team won't hit enough long range shots to beat you.

IU struggles with many parts of the pack line. The guards are not great at preventing the drive from the guy they are guarding and that's a big problem. Other than Rob they struggle with this and even Rob has his moments. The "sag line" by everyone not on the ball is supposed to be 16 feet from the rim. IU sags inside much more, especially by the offside guards as they try to cheat in the post to protect TJD and Race. IU also easily gets out of position with just a basic pick by the offense. You see TJD and Race trying to move laterally to cut off the drive. The result is they get pulled from the basket and at that point virtually every team in conference has the size advantage over IU and makes it difficult to rebound. Watch late game - the other team knows they can draw TJD from the basket and if they can get a shot to the rim even if they miss the odds are good they can get a rebound put back over Race and three guards.

The pack line is supposed to help with rebounding. It is supposed to result in a low FG percentage by the opponent. Supposed to prevent the offense from getting to the basket. We have seen the good and bad of it from IU. They can lock down teams at times but they can also be out of position giving up easy baskets, too many offensive rebounds at key moments, and sometimes it just looks like the other team is shooting in an open gym. 

Archie is clearly adding size at the guard and SF spots to help close out on the shooters with Armaan, Trey, Leal, Parker, and Gunn all in the 6'4 to 6'5 range, and Hunter 6'7. What he is missing is enough size inside to allow the guards to stay out where they need to be to stop the drives. TJD at 6'9 and Race at 6'8 have to be protected and they really struggle against size at times. If Brunk was healthy and if they had just one more 6'9 to 7'0 legit big available, it would be a much different team and the defense would be one of the tops in the nation.

  

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37 minutes ago, Euroclydon said:

Pack line is basically a sagging man to man defense. The guy guarding the ball is up close and working to prevent a drive getting past them while the rest are sagging off their man and in position to close off the drive and force a pass. Don't allow the offense into the lane. By preventing the drive to the lane you hope to force a contested shot from distance. The idea being you are gambling the other team won't hit enough long range shots to beat you.

IU struggles with many parts of the pack line. The guards are not great at preventing the drive from the guy they are guarding and that's a big problem. Other than Rob they struggle with this and even Rob has his moments. The "sag line" by everyone not on the ball is supposed to be 16 feet from the rim. IU sags inside much more, especially by the offside guards as they try to cheat in the post to protect TJD and Race. IU also easily gets out of position with just a basic pick by the offense. You see TJD and Race trying to move laterally to cut off the drive. The result is they get pulled from the basket and at that point virtually every team in conference has the size advantage over IU and makes it difficult to rebound. Watch late game - the other team knows they can draw TJD from the basket and if they can get a shot to the rim even if they miss the odds are good they can get a rebound put back over Race and three guards.

The pack line is supposed to help with rebounding. It is supposed to result in a low FG percentage by the opponent. Supposed to prevent the offense from getting to the basket. We have seen the good and bad of it from IU. They can lock down teams at times but they can also be out of position giving up easy baskets, too many offensive rebounds at key moments, and sometimes it just looks like the other team is shooting in an open gym. 

Archie is clearly adding size at the guard and SF spots to help close out on the shooters with Armaan, Trey, Leal, Parker, and Gunn all in the 6'4 to 6'5 range, and Hunter 6'7. What he is missing is enough size inside to allow the guards to stay out where they need to be to stop the drives. TJD at 6'9 and Race at 6'8 have to be protected and they really struggle against size at times. If Brunk was healthy and if they had just one more 6'9 to 7'0 legit big available, it would be a much different team and the defense would be one of the tops in the nation.

  

To me I don't see any different in the pack line that the kind of defense that RMK ran.  Under RMK the weak side defenders sagged back to the lane while the on ball defender was guarding tightly.

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6 hours ago, Euroclydon said:

Pack line is basically a sagging man to man defense. The guy guarding the ball is up close and working to prevent a drive getting past them while the rest are sagging off their man and in position to close off the drive and force a pass. Don't allow the offense into the lane. By preventing the drive to the lane you hope to force a contested shot from distance. The idea being you are gambling the other team won't hit enough long range shots to beat you.

IU struggles with many parts of the pack line. The guards are not great at preventing the drive from the guy they are guarding and that's a big problem. Other than Rob they struggle with this and even Rob has his moments. The "sag line" by everyone not on the ball is supposed to be 16 feet from the rim. IU sags inside much more, especially by the offside guards as they try to cheat in the post to protect TJD and Race. IU also easily gets out of position with just a basic pick by the offense. You see TJD and Race trying to move laterally to cut off the drive. The result is they get pulled from the basket and at that point virtually every team in conference has the size advantage over IU and makes it difficult to rebound. Watch late game - the other team knows they can draw TJD from the basket and if they can get a shot to the rim even if they miss the odds are good they can get a rebound put back over Race and three guards.

The pack line is supposed to help with rebounding. It is supposed to result in a low FG percentage by the opponent. Supposed to prevent the offense from getting to the basket. We have seen the good and bad of it from IU. They can lock down teams at times but they can also be out of position giving up easy baskets, too many offensive rebounds at key moments, and sometimes it just looks like the other team is shooting in an open gym. 

Archie is clearly adding size at the guard and SF spots to help close out on the shooters with Armaan, Trey, Leal, Parker, and Gunn all in the 6'4 to 6'5 range, and Hunter 6'7. What he is missing is enough size inside to allow the guards to stay out where they need to be to stop the drives. TJD at 6'9 and Race at 6'8 have to be protected and they really struggle against size at times. If Brunk was healthy and if they had just one more 6'9 to 7'0 legit big available, it would be a much different team and the defense would be one of the tops in the nation.

  

This is helpful for a guy about my knowledge level of X’s and O’s Which is average.

I just can’t grasp two overarching ideas in the years Archie has had...and again...I LIKE Archie and want him to succeed...BUT...

with this many years into this...why are we still struggling so much to run this defense consistently? Is it that complex? A an old school Temple match up zone??

Second, why if key types of athletes are a part of the problem, have we NOT gotten that in the program by now? If we need guys 6’11” or so to be good at this what’s the issue? Should’ve we at least have a couple frosh post players we can see ultimately will fix this issue?

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2 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

This is helpful for a guy about my knowledge level of X’s and O’s Which is average.

I just can’t grasp two overarching ideas in the years Archie has had...and again...I LIKE Archie and want him to succeed...BUT...

with this many years into this...why are we still struggling so much to run this defense consistently? Is it that complex? A an old school Temple match up zone??

Second, why if key types of athletes are a part of the problem, have we NOT gotten that in the program by now? If we need guys 6’11” or so to be good at this what’s the issue? Should’ve we at least have a couple frosh post players we can see ultimately will fix this issue?

While we aren't perfect on defense, we've been a really good defensive team each of the last two years. We have momentary lapses, but criticizing our defense as a whole just seems odd to me. 

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1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

While we aren't perfect on defense, we've been a really good defensive team each of the last two years. We have momentary lapses, but criticizing our defense as a whole just seems odd to me. 

No it’s probably odd. I haven’t tuned in much at all this year. Last year the wheels came off for me. Just too many things in my life messed up. All I gathered from a distance is that it seemed every body and their brother would have career shooting nights against us and we didn’t win much. So I just assumed. My bad.

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1 hour ago, BADGERVOL said:

No it’s probably odd. I haven’t tuned in much at all this year. Last year the wheels came off for me. Just too many things in my life messed up. All I gathered from a distance is that it seemed every body and their brother would have career shooting nights against us and we didn’t win much. So I just assumed. My bad.

Hope everything is OK for you bud. 

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8 minutes ago, Bustout said:

Hope everything is OK for you bud. 

Wow thank you. Had a very rough couple of years with a few traumatic things which led to a battle with anxiety and depression, alcohol became an issue...I spiraled to rock bottom. But I am finally trending UP. So thankful to slowly be seeing a light at the end of the tunnel.

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4 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Wow thank you. Had a very rough couple of years with a few traumatic things which led to a battle with anxiety and depression, alcohol became an issue...I spiraled to rock bottom. But I am finally trending UP. So thankful to slowly be seeing a light at the end of the tunnel.

Good for you.  We’ll keep you in our thoughts.  Hopefully you’re getting the help you need.   One day at a time man.  Keep it up.  No two situations are alike, but everyone has been through some stuff.   Turn to those who know you.  They can always help out.
 

So happy to hear your trending UP!    Tune into the IU game this weekend .... can’t promise a W, but maybe take your mind off things for a couple hours ... then come on here to recap.   Good group on this board.    

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7 minutes ago, Bustout said:

Good for you.  We’ll keep you in our thoughts.  Hopefully you’re getting the help you need.   One day at a time man.  Keep it up.  No two situations are alike, but everyone has been through some stuff.   Turn to those who know you.  They can always help out.
 

So happy to hear your trending UP!    Tune into the IU game this weekend .... can’t promise a W, but maybe take your mind off things for a couple hours ... then come on here to recap.   Good group on this board.    

Yes I have been on this board then previous boards for YEARS. Drifted recently because of the state of IU and my brains not having what it took to “hang in there” with anything other than my life.

Have a great support base, therapist, etc so all the pieces are in place. Thank God for that.

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9 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Yes I have been on this board then previous boards for YEARS. Drifted recently because of the state of IU and my brains not having what it took to “hang in there” with anything other than my life.

Have a great support base, therapist, etc so all the pieces are in place. Thank God for that.

Excellent. Just always know you’re never alone.   

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1 hour ago, BADGERVOL said:

No it’s probably odd. I haven’t tuned in much at all this year. Last year the wheels came off for me. Just too many things in my life messed up. All I gathered from a distance is that it seemed every body and their brother would have career shooting nights against us and we didn’t win much. So I just assumed. My bad.

Wow man, really sorry to hear about the person situation. Good on you for preserving through that! 

Back to the topic, our defense is really good. It's been in the top 10% of the country the past two years. We just have a faction of fans that are starting to pick apart everything we do, no matter what the data says is reality. 

 

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