Pack Line Question

[slojoe]

11 hours ago, IU Scott said:

To me I don't see any different in the pack line that the kind of defense that RMK ran.  Under RMK the weak side defenders sagged back to the lane while the on ball defender was guarding tightly.

For one thing pack line doesn't contest the passing lanes.  RMK's defenses thrived on that.

[MSHoosier]

I mentioned this in a game thread and no one answered me. It sure seemed like the first half of Minny that the guards drove strong hand right to the rim. Most of the time off a pick and roll, but sometimes on a straight line.  I didn't play organized basketball, but have played pick -up and church league for over 40 years and I tried to never let my man drive to his strong hand. Do we look like we try to force drivers to the weak hand, or is that anything our team or any team concentrates on ?

[Hippopotamo]

48 minutes ago, MSHoosier said:

I mentioned this in a game thread and no one answered me. It sure seemed like the first half of Minny that the guards drove strong hand right to the rim. Most of the time off a pick and roll, but sometimes on a straight line.  I didn't play organized basketball, but have played pick -up and church league for over 40 years and I tried to never let my man drive to his strong hand. Do we look like we try to force drivers to the weak hand, or is that anything our team or any team concentrates on ?

I think the defense was incredibly focused on not letting them get comfortable from 3 in the first half and that made it easier for the guards to drive, plus Al isn’t a great on ball defense, Rob struggled a bit, and the rim protection was bad. I get the sense they made adjustments at halftime to limit the drive since that was shut down a bit more in the second half. 

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, MSHoosier said:

I mentioned this in a game thread and no one answered me. It sure seemed like the first half of Minny that the guards drove strong hand right to the rim. Most of the time off a pick and roll, but sometimes on a straight line.  I didn't play organized basketball, but have played pick -up and church league for over 40 years and I tried to never let my man drive to his strong hand. Do we look like we try to force drivers to the weak hand, or is that anything our team or any team concentrates on ?

It's a lot harder to take away someones strong hand when they can use both really well. If you over play a college guard to take away their strong hand they will go right by you with the other hand with ease. 

[bluegrassIU]

13 hours ago, BADGERVOL said:

Wow thank you. Had a very rough couple of years with a few traumatic things which led to a battle with anxiety and depression, alcohol became an issue...I spiraled to rock bottom. But I am finally trending UP. So thankful to slowly be seeing a light at the end of the tunnel.

Ok BADGER,we go way back. So you know I love ya, and proud of you fighting to get "right".

But dude, if you are fighting anxiety, depression and alcohol.....is HSN really a good place to be?

With us whack jobs, I get anxious,  depressed,  and need a drink AFTER coming here. And I do not otherwise have those struggles.  😁

Serious note,

I know you are a man of faith. So sending prayers your way, and just good vibes.

It seriously is good to see ya back around!

[bluegrassIU]

17 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

It's a lot harder to take away someones strong hand when they can use both really well. If you over play a college guard to take away their strong hand they will go right by you with the other hand with ease. 

This Is so true.

In high school,, I made a living sitting on a guys strong hand.. even if they can get past me with their off hand,, 99% could not finish with their off hand. I always knew they would come back to their strong hand eventually.....and I would be waiting. 

Worked all the time, even against really good players.

Then I met Allen Houston and, well......

You are correct @KoB2011 , at this level there is no sitting on a players strong hand, especially a guard. You would be a sitting duck.

 

[bluegrassIU]

1 minute ago, bluegrassIU said:

This Is so true.

In high school,, I made a living sitting on a guys strong hand.. even if they can get past me with their off hand,, 99% could not finish with their off hand. I always knew they would come back to their strong hand eventually.....and I would be waiting. 

Worked all the time, even against really good players.

Then I met Allen Houston and, well......

You are correct @KoB2011 , at this level there is no sitting on a players strong hand, especially a guard. You would be a sitting duck.

 

Heck, even Al hit a floater with his off hand against Minnesota.  

[KoB2011]

6 minutes ago, bluegrassIU said:

This Is so true.

In high school,, I made a living sitting on a guys strong hand.. even if they can get past me with their off hand,, 99% could not finish with their off hand. I always knew they would come back to their strong hand eventually.....and I would be waiting. 

Worked all the time, even against really good players.

Then I met Allen Houston and, well......

You are correct @KoB2011 , at this level there is no sitting on a players strong hand, especially a guard. You would be a sitting duck.

 

When I started reading this post I was planning on bringing up Houston but no, you had to beat me to it and steal my thunder. 

[5fouls]

Thought this was interesting.  Defensive Rating is defined as "An estimate of the number of points allowed per 100 possessions'.  The lower the number, the better.  Overall the team is okay, but not as good as we would think.  For example, in the 2012-2013 team, virtually the entire squad was below 100.  Victor was in the 87 range.  Cody was just slightly higher than Vic.

What I find most interesting about this year's team is some of the individual ratings.  Kind of goes counter than what we tend to believe in some cases.

Rk	Player	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	2P	2PA	2P%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		ORtg	DRtg ▲
1	Nathan Childress	2	0	4	0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		14.8	0.0	14.8	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0		0.0	66.4
2	Race Thompson	21	21	606	6.8	12.9	.523	6.5	11.8	.550	0.3	1.2	.250	6.1	9.9	.614	13.1	2.9	1.8	2.6	2.4	5.1	19.9		116.0	97.6
3	Trayce Jackson-Davis	21	21	721	12.3	23.1	.532	12.3	23.1	.532	0.0	0.0		9.3	14.1	.661	16.3	2.4	0.9	2.6	4.0	3.5	33.8		112.1	97.9
4	Armaan Franklin	19	18	586	8.0	18.3	.436	4.7	10.9	.426	3.3	7.4	.452	4.1	5.3	.769	8.4	4.2	2.6	0.5	4.6	5.7	23.4		100.8	98.9
5	Jordan Geronimo	16	0	120	7.4	12.4	.600	6.4	8.9	.722	1.0	3.5	.286	0.5	5.9	.083	13.4	2.5	1.5	1.0	3.0	7.9	16.3		98.8	99.2
6	Anthony Leal	15	0	205	2.6	7.0	.375	0.3	0.6	.500	2.3	6.4	.364	0.9	1.4	.600	7.2	5.2	2.3	0.3	2.9	3.8	8.4		102.3	101.4
7	Khristian Lander	21	0	194	3.7	15.9	.231	0.3	4.3	.071	3.4	11.6	.289	1.8	1.8	1.000	4.6	7.3	2.1	0.9	5.8	8.0	12.5		72.6	101.4
8	Jerome Hunter	19	0	340	7.5	16.9	.443	3.8	8.0	.478	3.7	8.9	.412	1.7	3.5	.500	9.4	1.6	1.0	0.3	3.0	6.5	20.4		99.1	102.0
9	Rob Phinisee	21	18	543	5.9	15.5	.380	3.6	7.9	.458	2.3	7.7	.300	2.8	4.4	.650	4.6	6.2	1.6	1.1	2.8	6.2	16.9		98.8	102.8
10	Trey Galloway	19	7	392	4.7	10.6	.443	3.9	6.7	.591	0.8	3.9	.192	1.5	2.0	.769	5.3	5.1	1.5	0.2	2.6	5.1	11.7		101.7	104.5
11	Aljami Durham	20	20	661	6.0	15.5	.387	3.4	8.6	.396	2.6	6.9	.377	5.8	7.6	.765	5.9	5.0	1.0	0.2	2.5	4.5	20.5		109.7	104.7
12	Michael Shipp	2	0	2	0.0	29.7	.000	0.0	0.0		0.0	29.7	.000	0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0		0.0	111.4
13	Cooper Bybee	1	0	1	0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0		0.0	111.4

[IowaHoosierFan]

3 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Thought this was interesting.  Defensive Rating is defined as "An estimate of the number of points allowed per 100 possessions'.  The lower the number, the better.  Overall the team is okay, but not as good as we would think.  For example, in the 2012-2013 team, virtually the entire squad was below 100.  Victor was in the 87 range.  Cody was just slightly higher than Vic.

What I find most interesting about this year's team is some of the individual ratings.  Kind of goes counter than what we tend to believe in some cases.

Rk	Player	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	2P	2PA	2P%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		ORtg	DRtg ▲
1	Nathan Childress	2	0	4	0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		14.8	0.0	14.8	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0		0.0	66.4
2	Race Thompson	21	21	606	6.8	12.9	.523	6.5	11.8	.550	0.3	1.2	.250	6.1	9.9	.614	13.1	2.9	1.8	2.6	2.4	5.1	19.9		116.0	97.6
3	Trayce Jackson-Davis	21	21	721	12.3	23.1	.532	12.3	23.1	.532	0.0	0.0		9.3	14.1	.661	16.3	2.4	0.9	2.6	4.0	3.5	33.8		112.1	97.9
4	Armaan Franklin	19	18	586	8.0	18.3	.436	4.7	10.9	.426	3.3	7.4	.452	4.1	5.3	.769	8.4	4.2	2.6	0.5	4.6	5.7	23.4		100.8	98.9
5	Jordan Geronimo	16	0	120	7.4	12.4	.600	6.4	8.9	.722	1.0	3.5	.286	0.5	5.9	.083	13.4	2.5	1.5	1.0	3.0	7.9	16.3		98.8	99.2
6	Anthony Leal	15	0	205	2.6	7.0	.375	0.3	0.6	.500	2.3	6.4	.364	0.9	1.4	.600	7.2	5.2	2.3	0.3	2.9	3.8	8.4		102.3	101.4
7	Khristian Lander	21	0	194	3.7	15.9	.231	0.3	4.3	.071	3.4	11.6	.289	1.8	1.8	1.000	4.6	7.3	2.1	0.9	5.8	8.0	12.5		72.6	101.4
8	Jerome Hunter	19	0	340	7.5	16.9	.443	3.8	8.0	.478	3.7	8.9	.412	1.7	3.5	.500	9.4	1.6	1.0	0.3	3.0	6.5	20.4		99.1	102.0
9	Rob Phinisee	21	18	543	5.9	15.5	.380	3.6	7.9	.458	2.3	7.7	.300	2.8	4.4	.650	4.6	6.2	1.6	1.1	2.8	6.2	16.9		98.8	102.8
10	Trey Galloway	19	7	392	4.7	10.6	.443	3.9	6.7	.591	0.8	3.9	.192	1.5	2.0	.769	5.3	5.1	1.5	0.2	2.6	5.1	11.7		101.7	104.5
11	Aljami Durham	20	20	661	6.0	15.5	.387	3.4	8.6	.396	2.6	6.9	.377	5.8	7.6	.765	5.9	5.0	1.0	0.2	2.5	4.5	20.5		109.7	104.7
12	Michael Shipp	2	0	2	0.0	29.7	.000	0.0	0.0		0.0	29.7	.000	0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0		0.0	111.4
13	Cooper Bybee	1	0	1	0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0		0.0	111.4

So the lower the number the better?  What is the bench mark?  What is considered elite vs average?  Is there a bell curve representation?

[5fouls]

17 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

So the lower the number the better?  What is the bench mark?  What is considered elite vs average?  Is there a bell curve representation?

I assume the benchmark would be '100'.  Elite would be subjective, but I personally would say anything below 92 or so would be elite.  I have not watched much basketball this season outside of IU, so I don't know who would be an 'elite' defender to look up.  I do think the stat has merit.  I've copied the 2012-2103 team and Crean's last team as comparisons.

These are fair comparisons because we know that the 12-13 was good and Vic was an elite defender.  By contrast, we know Crean's last team struggled defensively.

Also, though I did not sort by it, you can look at the Offensive Rating as well and validate what we know about the teams.

Rk	Player	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	2P	2PA	2P%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		ORtg	DRtg ▲
1	Raphael Smith	13	0	18	6.6	9.9	.667	6.6	9.9	.667	0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		16.6	0.0	3.3	0.0	9.9	3.3	13.2		65.1	86.1
2	Victor Oladipo	36	36	1021	10.6	17.7	.599	8.9	13.8	.644	1.8	4.0	.441	5.7	7.6	.746	13.3	4.3	4.6	1.6	4.8	5.2	28.7		125.7	87.3
3	Jeff Howard	13	0	38	3.1	4.7	.667	3.1	4.7	.667	0.0	0.0		0.0	3.1	.000	14.1	1.6	0.0	4.7	0.0	3.1	6.3		113.6	89.0
4	Austin Etherington	7	0	47	5.1	8.9	.571	3.8	5.1	.750	1.3	3.8	.333	5.1	8.9	.571	15.2	3.8	2.5	1.3	6.3	12.7	16.5		102.2	89.3
5	Cody Zeller	36	36	1062	11.2	19.8	.564	11.2	19.7	.567	0.0	0.1	.000	11.0	14.5	.757	16.2	2.6	2.1	2.5	4.5	4.5	33.3		124.5	89.5
6	Christian Watford	36	35	1007	7.5	17.5	.431	4.0	10.1	.394	3.6	7.4	.480	7.6	9.4	.811	13.4	1.8	1.4	1.0	3.4	4.8	26.2		122.0	92.3
7	Hanner Mosquera-Perea	20	0	115	2.6	6.7	.385	2.6	6.7	.385	0.0	0.0		3.6	8.8	.412	15.0	1.0	1.6	2.6	3.6	12.4	8.8		90.2	92.9
8	Jeremy Hollowell	33	0	320	5.8	14.3	.403	4.5	8.8	.511	1.3	5.6	.233	4.5	7.1	.632	12.7	1.9	0.9	2.2	5.4	7.6	17.3		93.7	94.9
9	Derek Elston	19	0	120	3.0	10.4	.286	2.0	6.0	.333	1.0	4.5	.222	3.5	5.0	.700	7.9	2.0	2.0	2.0	3.5	7.9	10.4		86.6	95.0
10	Will Sheehey	36	1	801	9.4	19.3	.486	7.3	13.2	.551	2.1	6.0	.346	4.7	7.1	.656	9.4	3.5	2.1	0.4	2.8	6.4	25.5		119.5	95.2
11	Maurice Creek	24	0	186	4.8	16.7	.288	1.6	6.7	.238	3.2	9.9	.323	1.3	1.6	.800	7.0	2.9	2.2	0.6	1.9	4.2	14.1		98.6	96.1
12	Yogi Ferrell	36	36	1012	5.4	13.3	.403	4.0	8.8	.453	1.4	4.5	.303	3.9	4.9	.798	5.9	8.7	1.6	0.4	4.4	3.5	16.0		107.3	97.7
13	Jordan Hulls	36	36	1037	6.6	14.8	.446	2.0	4.5	.443	4.6	10.3	.447	2.2	2.8	.776	4.9	6.1	1.7	0.1	2.5	3.4	20.0		129.3	98.6
14	Remy Abell	36	0	452	6.1	12.9	.469	4.0	8.6	.462	2.1	4.4	.485	4.7	6.3	.750	7.1	4.4	1.3	0.0	3.6	4.6	19.0		119.2	99.9
15	Taylor Wayer	10	0	10	0.0	6.0	.000	0.0	6.0	.000	0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		6.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0		68.3	107.2
16	Peter Jurkin	3	0	7	0.0	8.5	.000	0.0	8.5	.000	0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0		0.0	107.2

 

 

Rk	Player	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	2P	2PA	2P%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		ORtg	DRtg ▲
1	Quentin Taylor	6	0	10	5.8	5.8	1.000	5.8	5.8	1.000	0.0	0.0		0.0	0.0		11.5	0.0	5.8	0.0	23.0	11.5	11.5		37.7	97.8
2	Tim Priller	10	0	27	14.9	19.2	.778	14.9	19.2	.778	0.0	0.0		10.7	12.8	.833	23.4	6.4	0.0	4.3	2.1	14.9	40.5		166.0	99.0
3	OG Anunoby	16	10	402	9.7	17.5	.557	7.7	11.0	.701	2.0	6.4	.311	3.9	6.9	.563	12.5	3.3	3.0	3.0	3.7	4.7	25.3		118.5	99.4
4	Thomas Bryant	34	34	954	8.9	17.2	.519	7.5	13.6	.556	1.4	3.6	.383	6.5	8.9	.730	13.6	3.0	1.6	3.1	4.7	6.3	25.8		115.4	101.9
5	Freddie McSwain	31	1	251	7.3	13.3	.552	7.3	12.6	.582	0.0	0.7	.000	4.6	7.3	.625	17.7	0.9	2.3	0.7	5.3	9.4	19.3		104.9	102.1
6	Juwan Morgan	32	20	722	6.9	12.5	.548	6.1	9.3	.650	0.8	3.2	.250	5.2	7.0	.739	14.2	2.7	1.5	2.3	2.9	6.7	19.7		126.2	102.8
7	De'Ron Davis	34	4	471	8.1	16.6	.485	8.1	16.6	.485	0.0	0.0		8.3	11.0	.756	13.0	3.8	1.7	2.9	5.0	10.0	24.4		113.0	103.4
8	Devonte Green	32	3	485	5.6	12.6	.443	2.7	6.1	.451	2.8	6.5	.436	2.8	4.0	.706	6.8	4.0	2.6	0.7	4.7	2.8	16.9		102.4	104.9
9	Robert Johnson	34	32	999	9.3	20.8	.449	5.3	9.9	.535	4.0	10.9	.370	2.3	3.1	.755	8.6	4.9	1.7	0.2	4.5	4.2	25.0		108.8	105.8
10	Zach McRoberts	31	3	350	1.5	4.4	.333	0.8	2.5	.333	0.7	2.0	.333	0.3	0.3	1.000	7.4	4.8	2.0	1.0	1.3	7.4	3.9		117.2	106.0
11	Curtis Jones	33	1	370	5.9	16.8	.352	2.6	7.5	.354	3.3	9.3	.350	2.8	3.9	.720	6.8	4.8	2.2	0.5	3.7	4.4	17.9		101.1	106.1
12	James Blackmon	30	30	915	10.9	23.0	.477	5.2	9.4	.553	5.7	13.5	.423	4.5	5.4	.837	9.1	3.5	1.3	0.1	3.6	3.4	32.1		124.7	107.2
13	Grant Gelon	12	0	39	10.3	13.3	.778	5.9	5.9	1.000	4.4	7.4	.600	7.4	11.8	.625	7.4	0.0	1.5	0.0	1.5	8.9	32.5		161.8	108.6
14	Josh Newkirk	34	32	955	6.9	15.7	.438	4.8	10.1	.470	2.1	5.5	.380	2.7	3.8	.698	6.3	6.5	1.1	0.4	4.6	6.0	18.5		105.1	108.8

 

 

[IUFLA]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Thought this was interesting.  Defensive Rating is defined as "An estimate of the number of points allowed per 100 possessions'.  The lower the number, the better.  Overall the team is okay, but not as good as we would think.  For example, in the 2012-2013 team, virtually the entire squad was below 100.  Victor was in the 87 range.  Cody was just slightly higher than Vic.

What I find most interesting about this year's team is some of the individual ratings.  Kind of goes counter than what we tend to believe in some cases.

So here's the formula they use...note the bolded...

Defensive Player Rating = (Players Steals*Blocks) + Opponents Differential= 1/5 of possessions - Times blown by + Deflections * OAPDW( Official Adjusted Players Defensive Withstand). This stat can't be influenced by the defense of a player's teammates.

And it is interesting on individual players...I give Rob a little slack because he's normally guarding the opposition's best player, or at least their best guard...

 

[KoB2011]

26 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

So here's the formula they use...note the bolded...

Defensive Player Rating = (Players Steals*Blocks) + Opponents Differential= 1/5 of possessions - Times blown by + Deflections * OAPDW( Official Adjusted Players Defensive Withstand). This stat can't be influenced by the defense of a player's teammates.

And it is interesting on individual players...I give Rob a little slack because he's normally guarding the opposition's best player, or at least their best guard...

 

The formula is how many points the opposing team scores per 100 possessions with that player on the floor, not sure where you are getting that. 

It can absolutely be influenced by your teammates and is far from a perfect measure of who is the best individual defender on a team. 

[Billingsley99]

On 2/18/2021 at 12:47 PM, IU Scott said:

To me I don't see any different in the pack line that the kind of defense that RMK ran.  Under RMK the weak side defenders sagged back to the lane while the on ball defender was guarding tightly.

Big difference IMO. with RMK 1 pass away you are on the line 2 passes away 1 ft in lane more than 2 passes away in line with basket.  

In pack line there is no denying or forcing the backdoor 

[KoB2011]

7 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Big difference IMO. with RMK 1 pass away you are on the line 2 passes away 1 ft in lane more than 2 passes away in line with basket.  

In pack line there is no denying or forcing the backdoor 

You should deny the ball once the dribble has been picked up but yeah, it's different than a traditional M2M as you highlight. 

Overall, a packline defense is not trying to force turnovers, it is trying to force difficult shots. 

[Billingsley99]

13 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

You should deny the ball once the dribble has been picked up but yeah, it's different than a traditional M2M as you highlight. 

Overall, a packline defense is not trying to force turnovers, it is trying to force difficult shots. 

Especially take away layups and dribble penetration. Can be effective against a lot of dribble drive offense or many 4 around 1. I went to pack line and thought I could more with less. 

[IUFLA]

33 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

The formula is how many points the opposing team scores per 100 possessions with that player on the floor, not sure where you are getting that. 

It can absolutely be influenced by your teammates and is far from a perfect measure of who is the best individual defender on a team. 

It's a little more complex than that according to this definition...I had found a simplistic formula which I posted rather than the whole thing...

"Defensive Rating
Just as Oliver's Offensive Rating represents points produced by the player per 100 possessions consumed, his Defensive Rating estimates how many points the player allowed per 100 possessions he individually faced while on the court.

The core of the Defensive Rating calculation is the concept of the individual Defensive Stop. Stops take into account the instances of a player ending an opposing possession that are tracked in the boxscore (blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds), in addition to an estimate for the number of forced turnovers and forced misses by the player which aren't captured by steals and blocks."

 

[5fouls]

32 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

The formula is how many points the opposing team scores per 100 possessions with that player on the floor, not sure where you are getting that. 

It can absolutely be influenced by your teammates and is far from a perfect measure of who is the best individual defender on a team. 

I'm not a math wizard, but I think it has to include something more than a straight points per possession.  I say this because at least one of Race & Trayce are on the floor 99.5% of the time.  That would make it statistically impossible for BOTH of them to be in the Top 2 on the team if it were a straight point per possession calculation.  Every single lineup we have on the court has at least one of them in it.  That would mean that something between 97.6 and 97.9 would have to be the team average.  And, it's obviously not.

 

[MSHoosier]

3 hours ago, bluegrassIU said:

This Is so true.

In high school,, I made a living sitting on a guys strong hand.. even if they can get past me with their off hand,, 99% could not finish with their off hand. I always knew they would come back to their strong hand eventually.....and I would be waiting. 

Worked all the time, even against really good players.

Then I met Allen Houston and, well......

You are correct @KoB2011 , at this level there is no sitting on a players strong hand, especially a guard. You would be a sitting duck.

 

Well, I used to tell myself that "if he could finish with his left he wouldn't be in this league," but I guess it depends on whether the guy is in a league of his own.

[IowaHoosierFan]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

I'm not a math wizard, but I think it has to include something more than a straight points per possession.  I say this because at least one of Race & Trayce are on the floor 99.5% of the time.  That would make it statistically impossible for BOTH of them to be in the Top 2 on the team if it were a straight point per possession calculation.  Every single lineup we have on the court has at least one of them in it.  That would mean that something between 97.6 and 97.9 would have to be the team average.  And, it's obviously not.

 

Would you say that this team is a better defensive team than the 2012-2013 team?

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Would you say that this team is a better defensive team than the 2012-2013 team?

No.  And, the Defensive Rating bears that out.  Maybe they are fairly even in points allowed per game, but the 2012-2013 team played at a much faster pace.  A lot more possessions per game to factor in.  

[KoB2011]

I think you guys are correct, I stand corrected. I thought college had a more simple definition of it than the NBA, but I cannot find anything to back that up. 

[IUFLA]

5 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I think you guys are correct, I stand corrected. I thought college had a more simple definition of it than the NBA, but I cannot find anything to back that up. 

Either one would be a formula I couldn't solve much less invent...

[BADGERVOL]

4 hours ago, bluegrassIU said:

Ok BADGER,we go way back. So you know I love ya, and proud of you fighting to get "right".

But dude, if you are fighting anxiety, depression and alcohol.....is HSN really a good place to be?

With us whack jobs, I get anxious,  depressed,  and need a drink AFTER coming here. And I do not otherwise have those struggles.  😁

Serious note,

I know you are a man of faith. So sending prayers your way, and just good vibes.

It seriously is good to see ya back around!

Good point right? I’m outta here!

Seriously though I did take a leave from sports completely and seeing if I have much desire to float back. Thank you for the prayers. Sort of remaking myself in my 40s somewhat.

[KoB2011]

40 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Good point right? I’m outta here!

Seriously though I did take a leave from sports completely and seeing if I have much desire to float back. Thank you for the prayers. Sort of remaking myself in my 40s somewhat.

Never too late to remake yourself. Life is a journey, not a destination.