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What program do you want to be?


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13 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Fair enough.  I would pick them over Indiana's record as well.

It is really all subjective anyway.

I guess one could ask, "Who wouldn't you take?" over the last 21 years.

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Villanova, Kansas, Virginia.    Realistically though, top 15-20 every year with a final four capable team every 2-3 years.  Get the best players & talent possible (that fits whoever is c

I want Indiana University basketball to be Indiana University basketball...competing yearly at the top of the Big Ten.  Making deep runs into the NCAAT.  I believe that Archie Miller is a good coach t

That’s why my mantra is to enjoy it for what it is. If you let yourself get too wrapped up in it, you lose sight of the original purpose: this is supposed to be fun. 

Seems like a long list, but as far as on court performance and the type of players they seem to recruit, I'd like to see IU similar to:

UNC

MSU

Villanova

Virginia (under Bennett, so clearly a shorter time period)

Wisconsin (to a lesser degree than the ones above)

I still think what has hurt IU over the years is less about X's and O's and coaching, and more about consistent, high level recruiting. 

IMO, IU has not stacked high level recruiting classes. We have one great class, then 2-3 average classes and we crash when the players from the great class either leave (some early) or don't pan out. 

Especially the first three programs I listed, Villanova more recently than historically though, do most of their recruiting in the 20-80 range, where IU tends to get 1 featured guy every few years and then the rest in the 80-150+ range. 

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1 minute ago, BGleas said:

Seems like a long list, but as far as on court performance and the type of players they seem to recruit, I'd like to see IU similar to:

UNC

MSU

Villanova

Virginia (under Bennett, so clearly a shorter time period)

Wisconsin (to a lesser degree than the ones above)

I still think what has hurt IU over the years is less about X's and O's and coaching, and more about consistent, high level recruiting. 

IMO, IU has not stacked high level recruiting classes. We have one great class, then 2-3 average classes and we crash when the players from the great class either leave (some early) or don't pan out. 

Especially the first three programs I listed, Villanova more recently than historically though, do most of their recruiting in the 20-80 range, where IU tends to get 1 featured guy every few years and then the rest in the 80-150+ range. 

And I think that is directly related to our school saying we want to maintain a certain image that none of those schools are all that concerned about.  That gray area.  They do it and we don't.

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3 hours ago, cybergates said:

Duke. 3 titles during that time and no (major) scandal/sanctions. Plenty of smoke but at least no fire like UNC and Kansas and more success than fUK. If Duke was my team I could get away with rooting for players I've hated since they were on my team. 

This question and answer makes me sad. Over the past few years I've come to the realization that sports are a source of unnecessary misery for most people since only one fanbase out of hundreds in NCAA basketball (32 in NFL, 30 in NBA, etc.) ends the season with a championship. So unless you are a bandwagon fan that jumps to the best team(s) all the time, your season ends somewhere between disappointment/heartbreak and optimism for the future. 

That’s why my mantra is to enjoy it for what it is. If you let yourself get too wrapped up in it, you lose sight of the original purpose: this is supposed to be fun. 

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11 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking for a look back, since Knight's firing, which program(s) do you want us to be. 

I can definitely see Nova as answer, but UVA I'm struggling to see how this fanbase would deal with the first 15 or so years of that time period. 

Minus the fake classes I would go with UNC.  The built their roster mainly with 3 and 4 year guys who were ranked between 15-70.  I love their fast pace of offense and they fast break a lot and has the secondary break that is very hard to defend.

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22 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Minus the fake classes I would go with UNC.  The built their roster mainly with 3 and 4 year guys who were ranked between 15-70.  I love their fast pace of offense and they fast break a lot and has the secondary break that is very hard to defend.

Yes.  Join the dark side :).

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8 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

If you are going to say we should give an answer because they haven’t had sustained success over the whole 21 years that really pigeon holes the topic. 

UVA or Wisconsin would also be my answer.  Built around getting older and building culture.   

 

I'm not sure I agree, but UVA was pretty downright awful for over half of the time I'm asking for. Surely whatever model we want to look at shouldn't be downright awful for half of a time period, right? 

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22 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Yes.  Join the dark side :).

I don't condone cheating at all and will never want Iu to do that  I just like the style of offense they play and they build their roster with guys who usually stayed 3-4 years.  Kind of funny the last couple of years they have struggled when they brought in more one and done players.  Like I have said many times I would want IU going forward be like UVA and Villanova.

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5 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I do, but if you are talking on court results...that is what I want to look like.

Really what I think you are attempting to do is say that any of the top programs have had a scandal at some point so we can't be them.  It is why you wanted to qualify that you can't have a combination of programs.  Over a 20 year period every program will have its flaws.

Yeah, the UNC cheating scandal sucked but what came of it?  UNC is still considered a better school than Indiana and they still have a better b-ball program.  So academics and sports, besides the worst academic scandal, they are still head and shoulders above us.

I would rather be UNC with the cheating scandal then the garbage we have been over the past 20 years.  We had a scandal of our own and at least they win.

Correct, I'm saying I didn't want us to just cherry pick all the good things.

My point was not to say every programs have warts so we are fine. It was somewhat to understand what warts we are okay with and what we aren't, and also to understand what type of success we are looking for. 

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Just now, IU Scott said:

I don't condone cheating at all and will never want Iu to do that  I just like the style of offense they play and they build their roster with guys who usually stayed 3-4 years.  Kind of funny the last couple of years they have struggled when they brought in more one and done players.  Like I have said many times I would want IU going forward be like UVA and Villanova.

I am not down with the academic scandal, nobody should be.  However, in the scheme of things it does not appear to have hurt the school at all.  3 NCAA titles over a 12 year period.  Appeared in the Sweet 16 half the years we were measuring.  We'd kill for those results.

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4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Correct, I'm saying I didn't want us to just cherry pick all the good things.

My point was not to say every programs have warts so we are fine. It was somewhat to understand what warts we are okay with and what we aren't, and also to understand what type of success we are looking for. 

I think most of the programs have something that happened that none of us would be "fine" with.  However, over that 20 year period you were looking at, it is hard to argue with UNC (or Duke's) results.

The NCAA is a dirty league.  Just being a fan of one of the top programs makes you complicit in that.    Once you accept that idea at the High D1 level, it makes some of the other stuff feel less egregious.  The league makes billions off of the way things run.  

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So here are some of my thoughts on the topic:

  • No one has mentioned Florida, but they're a strong choice IMO
  • I think Villanova is the best choice
  • UNC and Kansas are both choices I really, like too. Both have their warts, I can actually live with their warts pretty well, personally. 
  • MSU's warts are a non-starter for me
  • Dropping to teams that haven't won multiple titles in those 20 years, I like OSU and Wisconsin a lot. They've both had sustained success with multiple deep runs and conference titles. 
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3 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I think most of the programs have something that happened that none of us would be "fine" with.  However, over that 20 year period you were looking at, it is hard to argue with UNC (or Duke's) results.

The NCAA is a dirty league.  Just being a fan of one of the top programs makes you complicit in that.    Once you accept that idea at the High D1 level, it makes some of the other stuff feel less egregious.  The league makes billions off of the way things run.  

Oh I completely agree, they all will have things we aren't "fine with", but I am much more fine with things that have happened at UNC or Kansas than I am things at MSU. I don't a moral objection to those things like I do at MSU. 

But for me, I didn't include Duke in my list but do list Kansas and UNC - Duke is more 1 and done heavy than I'd like. Don't get me wrong, of course I'd trade places with them, but that isn't who I want to be. 

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

I still think what has hurt IU over the years is less about X's and O's and coaching, and more about consistent, high level recruiting. 

IMO, IU has not stacked high level recruiting classes. We have one great class, then 2-3 average classes and we crash when the players from the great class either leave (some early) or don't pan out. 

Especially the first three programs I listed, Villanova more recently than historically though, do most of their recruiting in the 20-80 range, where IU tends to get 1 featured guy every few years and then the rest in the 80-150+ range. 

I would take this a step further on the recruiting, where you need to recruit guys that are higher ranked BUT are also going to be around a few years. Otherwise, you're going to have to go the UK/Duke route of just pulling as many 5 stars as you can to make up for experience. 

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37 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I don't condone cheating at all and will never want Iu to do that  I just like the style of offense they play and they build their roster with guys who usually stayed 3-4 years.  Kind of funny the last couple of years they have struggled when they brought in more one and done players.  Like I have said many times I would want IU going forward be like UVA and Villanova.

I want IU to cheat.  Cheat at the same level as everyone else and what the NCAA considers ok.  If the NCAA is going to move the line, then stay right on it.  We haven't moved from where the line was 30 years ago and it has moved quite a bit.

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25 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

I would take this a step further on the recruiting, where you need to recruit guys that are higher ranked BUT are also going to be around a few years. Otherwise, you're going to have to go the UK/Duke route of just pulling as many 5 stars as you can to make up for experience. 

Having a recruiter who can find those 20-70 ranked kids who will stay 3 years but who are also a fit in your program and will in their Junior year be so much better than they were as freshman.  Then the get old stay old tactic works like a charm.

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7 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I want IU to cheat.  Cheat at the same level as everyone else and what the NCAA considers ok.  If the NCAA is going to move the line, then stay right on it.  We haven't moved from where the line was 30 years ago and it has moved quite a bit.

For me that is what is wrong with this fan base compared to the past.  I guess the younger generation doesn't care about how you win but just win baby.  That is not what IU basketball is all about and shouldn't every be.

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4 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Having a recruiter who can find those 20-70 ranked kids who will stay 3 years but who are also a fit in your program and will in their Junior year be so much better than they were as freshman.  Then the get old stay old tactic works like a charm.

So you are saying go the Louisville route?  No classes and strippers?

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41 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Oh I completely agree, they all will have things we aren't "fine with", but I am much more fine with things that have happened at UNC or Kansas than I am things at MSU. I don't a moral objection to those things like I do at MSU. 

But for me, I didn't include Duke in my list but do list Kansas and UNC - Duke is more 1 and done heavy than I'd like. Don't get me wrong, of course I'd trade places with them, but that isn't who I want to be. 

Gonzaga?

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5 minutes ago, rico said:

So you are saying go the Louisville route?  No classes and strippers?

It didn't seem to hurt Louisville very much and Rick Paino will be a coach in the next 2 years.

For some reason, everyone thinks this is 1985 still.  The NCAA doesn't give a shit about anything anymore.  They make Billions of dollars off of sports.  The only reason anything happened lately is because the FBI got involved with Wire Fraud.  Otherwise the NCAA would and still does look the other way.

Cheat, Hire strippers, pay players, pay coaches, pay students and fan.  I don't care anymore.  We're holding ourselves to a standard that no one else is part of.  We're in an empty room telling ourselves how awesome we are for being the clean school, while everyone else is hanging out with the NCAA and winning.

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1 minute ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

It didn't seem to hurt Louisville very much and Rick Paino will be a coach in the next 2 years.

For some reason, everyone thinks this is 1985 still.  The NCAA doesn't give a shit about anything anymore.  They make Billions of dollars off of sports.  The only reason any happened lately is because the FBI got involved with Wire Fraud.  Otherwise the NCAA would and still does look the other way.

Cheat, Hire strippers, pay players, pay coaches, pay students and fan.  I don't care anymore.  We're holding ourselves to a standard that no one else is part of.  We're in an empty room telling ourselves how awesome we are for being the clean school, while everyone else is hanging out with the NCAA and winning.

I am just gonna stick to the OP.  

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