Potential replacement coaches

[FritzIam4IU]

47 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

UCLA already tried that tactic with Jay...

I didn't remember him being considered for that job....I just remembered Calipari. I realize he is a long shot, but I was trying to think of someone who hasn't been mentioned much and would at least seriously listen/consider IU who would be a "home run hire". I figure he would probably not accept, but if IU offered him 2.5 million a year more than he is making he might at least have to think it over and maybe he is at a point in his life/coaching career where he wants that last challenge. If UCLA truly offered double his salary though...maybe not.

[IU Scott]

8 hours ago, ButlerHoosier said:

Do you know where we could listen to that broadcast? Thank you. 

I watched it on YouTube

[BobSaccamanno]

1 hour ago, Leathernecks said:

I like that Beard's defense is more aggressive than Archie's.  I like how they force a lot more turnovers, but even with those turnovers and more chances for quick, easy transition points, their offense hasn't been that great.  Better than what Archie's was here, but that tempo is ugly for how aggressive they play defense.  Always top 20 in turnover %, and pretty low in tempo every year.  I think we would have a lot of issues with his offense, and it doesn't seem like that attractive of a style.

And don't get me wrong, I'd be pretty happy with hiring him, and think he's an upgrade, but he's pretty low on my list of reasonable candidates.

Offense (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018)

Archie - 66, 54, 82, 92

Beard - 33, 47, 25, 50

Defense

43, 32, 32, 65

20, 9, 1, 4

Turnover %

17.3, 17.4, 17.7, 19.3

23.2, 22.6,  22.3, 21.3

Tempo

292, 188, 215, 251

317, 236, 231, 247

Great write up.  I’d expect nothing less from a scientist lol.   I realize that Beard’s tempo is low, but how do you feel about him having very good offensive rankings and truly phenomenal defensive rankings?   By the way, do you have a sense of where Musselman would fall on these metrics?

[IUFLA]

7 minutes ago, FritzIam4IU said:

I didn't remember him being considered for that job....I just remembered Calipari. I realize he is a long shot, but I was trying to think of someone who hasn't been mentioned much and would at least seriously listen/consider IU who would be a "home run hire". I figure he would probably not accept, but if IU offered him 2.5 million a year more than he is making he might at least have to think it over and maybe he is at a point in his life/coaching career where he wants that last challenge. If UCLA truly offered double his salary though...maybe not.

He is indeed a great coach...Snappy dresser too!

But he's had other offers before...And I'm not sure we carry the weight in the college basketball world we once did...

[Leathernecks]

1 minute ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Great write up.  I’d expect nothing less from a scientist lol.   I realize that Beard’s tempo is low, but how do you feel about him having very good offensive rankings and truly phenomenal defensive rankings?   By the way, do you have a sense of where Musselman would fall on these metrics?

Technically a science teacher, but I do like to say, "trust me, I'm a scientist" haha.

I would imagine that Beard's offensive efficiency numbers are inflated by their elite turnover %.  They're always towards the top of the country at forcing turnovers which I'm assuming leads to a handful of easy transition points.

Even with all of those turnovers, their tempo is still really slow.  Makes me think their half court offense is really, really slow.

I'm a much bigger fan of his defense than what we had with Archie.  I said with Archie, I wished there were times we'd push offenses more.  Our pack line was too passive and could let teams get comfortable.  I don't think there's any getting comfortable against Beard's defense with the pressure they put on you.

I'll put something together for Musselman.

[BobSaccamanno]

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

He is indeed a great coach...Snappy dresser too!

But he's had other offers before...And I'm not sure we carry the weight in the college basketball world we once did...

I thought if he’d go anywhere it would be the NBA.  I don’t follow it closely but my recollection is that NBA teams like the Knicks and Sixers have offered him lucrative deals and he sticks to Nova.  He seems like a big city, east coast guy.  He probably would have no idea what to do with himself in Bloomington.  I could be wrong but I think he’s like Mark Few where he’d never leave.  

[ThePaulieWalnuts]

Hire Scott Drew or Rick Pitino and embrace being the villains of college basketball instead of captain planet.  Obviously trying to be holier than thou has gotten the program nowhere in the past 2-3 decades.

[jv1972iu]

Right now...given that Moby Dick just sank the Pequod and we don't seem to know if we like any of the smaller fish schooled up in Indy...I suggest we make a Beilein for John.  He's waiting safely on that island... standing on dry land where X marks the spot.

[FritzIam4IU]

1 minute ago, ThePaulieWalnuts said:

Hire Scott Drew or Rick Pitino and embrace being the villains of college basketball instead of captain planet.  Obviously trying to be holier than thou has gotten the program nowhere in the past 2-3 decades.

If we are going to hire from the typical coaches being discussed I would list my top 3 in order as:

1. Drew

2 Beard/Musselman (keep going back and forth on these two)

[Leathernecks]

Offense (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018)

Archie - 66, 54, 82, 92

Beard - 33, 47, 25, 50

Musselman - 36, 55, (with Nevada) - 26, 7

Defense

43, 32, 32, 65

20, 9, 1, 4

10, 57, 35, 108

Opponents turnover %

17.3, 17.4, 17.7, 19.3

23.2, 22.6,  22.3, 21.3

19.9, 21.6, 18.7, 17.7

Tempo

292, 188, 215, 251

317, 236, 231, 247

17, 45, 91, 105

[BGleas]

39 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

Beard is at 4.5 million.

Thanks! I knew he made more than Archie, not sure why I thought it was $6M. 

I would like Beard, but I think it could be tough to get him. He's a Texas guy, and from what I've read he's divorced and his kids live in Texas, so that could make it difficult. 

[ephul]

I've been torn on who should take over. If we can't get the Steven's, Bennett, Jay Wright home run, I'm almost to the point where I'm ready to give an IU guy a shot over the up and comers like Beard, Oats, etc.

IU lost their way with the firing of Bob Knight. Good successful programs handle things internally; a young coach that understands the culture always ready. We got away from that and distanced ourselves from anything related to Bob Knight... and its bit us. Bob Knight, love him or hate him, did things the right way and won. And his players understood that and knew what was expected of them.

We tried the great up and comers. The guys we thought would come in and win, and it just hasn't worked. Over the last several years, we've watched Archie put up with poor effort, terrible shooting, and spotty defense. We really didn't see any consequences for the players. And that's just not the IU way. 

The beards, Oats, Musselmans, etc are all going to come with a decent amount of risk. This could be an opportunity to get Indiana back on track of getting back to the Bob Knight way of doing things. Could Woodson, Fife, Smart, etc come in and flop? Absolutely. But do you think they'll put up with poor effort? Hell no, because they know what it takes to be a winner. And I think if the teams the last 4 years would've showed any kind of desire or passion, we could've dealt with the ups and downs.

We could make up for lost time, put an IU guy in charge, and get back on track. Have guys in here that we KNOW understand the culture and what is expected as an IU player.

I've been up and down with who we should get, but I'm leaning more towards having that IU guy in there. Let's try Woodson or Fife. Let's put Michael Lewis on the bench. Lewis was just on the Dakich Show on Friday and man, he's impressive to listen to.

We thought we had one in Archie. We didn't. Let's try someone that will at least understand what's expected of them and what's expected of the players

[ThePaulieWalnuts]

5 minutes ago, FritzIam4IU said:

If we are going to hire from the typical coaches being discussed I would list my top 3 in order as:

1. Drew

2 Beard/Musselman (keep going back and forth on these two)

Musselman has the pro style and pro experience that recruits love (also a proven winner).  Beard, the knight disciple whose teams play tenacious defense.  It is a coin flip.

[FritzIam4IU]

Just now, ThePaulieWalnuts said:

Musselman has the pro style and pro experience that recruits love (also a proven winner).  Beard, the knight disciple whose teams play tenacious defense.  It is a coin flip.

Exactly. That is why I keep flip flopping on those two. I still think Drew would be the best hire, but I have doubts if Dolson will go that route.

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, ephul said:

I've been torn on who should take over. If we can't get the Steven's, Bennett, Jay Wright home run, I'm almost to the point where I'm ready to give an IU guy a shot over the up and comers like Beard, Oats, etc.

IU lost their way with the firing of Bob Knight. Good successful programs handle things internally; a young coach that understands the culture always ready. We got away from that and distanced ourselves from anything related to Bob Knight... and its bit us. Bob Knight, love him or hate him, did things the right way and won. And his players understood that and knew what was expected of them.

We tried the great up and comers. The guys we thought would come in and win, and it just hasn't worked. Over the last several years, we've watched Archie put up with poor effort, terrible shooting, and spotty defense. We really didn't see any consequences for the players. And that's just not the IU way. 

The beards, Oats, Musselmans, etc are all going to come with a decent amount of risk. This could be an opportunity to get Indiana back on track of getting back to the Bob Knight way of doing things. Could Woodson, Fife, Smart, etc come in and flop? Absolutely. But do you think they'll put up with poor effort? Hell no, because they know what it takes to be a winner. And I think if the teams the last 4 years would've showed any kind of desire or passion, we could've dealt with the ups and downs.

We could make up for lost time, put an IU guy in charge, and get back on track. Have guys in here that we KNOW understand the culture and what is expected as an IU player.

I've been up and down with who we should get, but I'm leaning more towards having that IU guy in there. Let's try Woodson or Fife. Let's put Michael Lewis on the bench. Lewis was just on the Dakich Show on Friday and man, he's impressive to listen to.

We thought we had one in Archie. We didn't. Let's try someone that will at least understand what's expected of them and what's expected of the players

Beard and Musselman aren't up and comers. Beard has 6 years of high major experience, including 2 Elite 8 appearances and a National Title loss in OT. 

Musselman is a former head coach at the NBA level. 

[KoB2011]

10 minutes ago, ThePaulieWalnuts said:

Musselman has the pro style and pro experience that recruits love (also a proven winner).  Beard, the knight disciple whose teams play tenacious defense.  It is a coin flip.

Either would be great. I wish people would stop referring to them as up and comers, they're not. They've both proven they can win at multiple schools, including Power 5 schools. Either one would be a GREAT hire. 

[ephul]

3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Beard and Musselman aren't up and comers. Beard has 6 years of high major experience, including 2 Elite 8 appearances and a National Title loss in OT. 

Musselman is a former head coach at the NBA level. 

That's great. Here's my question, and I don't mean this in a bad way; what makes Beard a sure thing as opposed to Archie? We both thought Archie was going to do great. We thought his IU teams would emulate his Dayton ones. They didn't. Why are we sure Beard's teams will be different? How do we know he'll be able to handle the pressure at IU? 

If we hire one of them? I'll support it. But after 21 years of screw ups, shouldn't it be time to let an IU guy fail? At the end of the day, they made the program great... shouldn't it be theirs to lose?

Again, I've been up and down on this. I dont know what's right or wrong, and who's interested and who's not. But after all this time watching the program fail at the hands of "outsiders", I just wonder if it's time to make it an IU guys program to lose

[HoosierFaithful]

With his actions so far, Dolson has earned my trust on whatever direction he thinks is best.  

[BobSaccamanno]

21 minutes ago, FritzIam4IU said:

If we are going to hire from the typical coaches being discussed I would list my top 3 in order as:

1. Drew

2 Beard/Musselman (keep going back and forth on these two)

If it’s Drew, he would need to repair any issues with the instate AAU guys who may still be unhappy with the Perea shenanigans.  It may be disqualifying unless this has all been repaired.  

[ephul]

2 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

With his actions so far, Dolson has earned my trust on whatever direction he thinks is best.  

Agreed 100%. Getting rid of Archie quick was the absolute right decision. He was taking us nowhere.

[KoB2011]

11 minutes ago, ephul said:

That's great. Here's my question, and I don't mean this in a bad way; what makes Beard a sure thing as opposed to Archie? We both thought Archie was going to do great. We thought his IU teams would emulate his Dayton ones. They didn't. Why are we sure Beard's teams will be different? How do we know he'll be able to handle the pressure at IU? 

If we hire one of them? I'll support it. But after 21 years of screw ups, shouldn't it be time to let an IU guy fail? At the end of the day, they made the program great... shouldn't it be theirs to lose?

Again, I've been up and down on this. I dont know what's right or wrong, and who's interested and who's not. But after all this time watching the program fail at the hands of "outsiders", I just wonder if it's time to make it an IU guys program to lose

There has never been a hire in any profession that didn't have questions, that's just the reality. We can't be paralyzed by fear that it won't work out, that's always going to be a risk - Beard and Musselman both have pedigrees of having won at multiple spots, including Power 5 conferences. 

[BobSaccamanno]

23 minutes ago, Leathernecks said:

Offense (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018)

Archie - 66, 54, 82, 92

Beard - 33, 47, 25, 50

Musselman - 36, 55, (with Nevada) - 26, 7

Defense

43, 32, 32, 65

20, 9, 1, 4

10, 57, 35, 108

Opponents turnover %

17.3, 17.4, 17.7, 19.3

23.2, 22.6,  22.3, 21.3

19.9, 21.6, 18.7, 17.7

Tempo

292, 188, 215, 251

317, 236, 231, 247

17, 45, 91, 105

Thanks, Leather.  Great stuff and it’s appreciated.  If you look at both offense and defense, Beard is just phenomenal on both ends.  Musselman is good too, but not quite at Beard’s combined level.  However, if you look at tempo too, whew, Musselman stands out.  

To me, these metrics confirm that we can make a really strong hire with either guy.  

[Hoosierdave]

As someone in here mentioned, if Dolson has as large of a budget as it appears, offer it to all the big name younger coaches available (Few, Wright, Bennette, Beard, Drew, Musselman, etc) and make them say no 3+ times like Stevens.

Someone mentioned it took Ohio State 4 attempts to land Holtmann. It seems like Dolson is persistent but hopefully the Stevens fiasco doesn’t turn him into a pessimist. 

[IUFLA]

5 minutes ago, ephul said:

Agreed 100%. Getting rid of Archie quick was the absolute right decision. He was taking us nowhere.

There's a donor who's 10 million dollars in the red right now that might disagree with you if we don't make the right hire...

[ephul]

Just now, KoB2011 said:

There has never been a hire in any profession that didn't have questions, that's just the reality. We can't be paralyzed by fear that it won't work out, that's always going to be a risk - Beard and Musselman both have pedigrees of having won at multiple spots, including Power 5 conferences. 

Agreed, there's risk with every hire. My point is, we've Mike Davis, Kevin Sampson, Tom Crean and Archie Miller in here. They all had the resumes. And none have worked. Is it time to put it in the hands of an IU guy? If an IU guy wins, you've essentially got the program back to the Bob Knight days. Everyone is happy. If they fail? It failed at the hands of the guys that made IU what it is