~Mid Season Take

[Bigred3588]

I think people need to take a step back and look at what we’re working with here. Crean recruited players to run a system reliant on transition offense and fast play with little regard for ball security or defense. Miller runs a motion offense and emphasizes defense. We can harp on our guards all day, but the fact is that we’re expecting them to pick up on a scheme that they’ve literally never run. Newkirk said when he transferred that it was because he wanted to play in a transition offense, and some of our fans sit here and wonder why he isn’t successful in a motion offense. They are two completely different styles of play and the motion is far more complicated. It takes time, knowledge, and chemistry to run a successful motion offense, and we haven’t had any of the above with our current players. 

As far as Davis is concerned, I don’t think some of our fans understand how physical conditioning affects someone’s game. Look at Ferrell’s percentages from high school through college for reference. He was a very good 3 point shooter in high school but was less than stellar his first couple years at IU. Then look at the change in his physique. When there are significant changes in your physique, it’s going to show on the court. Your game has to catch up with your body. While losing 20 lbs has helped Davis play more minutes (when he’s not in foul trouble), it has also affected his play around the basket. Now that he’s lost the weight, he needs to gain muscle. Give him another year in the weight room and hopefully some agility training, and I think we see a different player next season.

I could go on and on about various players, but for the sake of brevity I’m just going to say that our fans need to see this season for what it is and accept it. Enjoy the wins that aren’t expected and don’t get too bent out of shape about the losses. Indiana kids grow up playing Miller’s style of basketball and his ability to recruit in-state will turn this program around. Just look at the Duke game. I personally felt that Miller out-coached K in that game and ultimately talent won out. If I’m right, imagine what we do with kids tailored for our style of play.

[5fouls]

Here's where I have trouble fully buying into the argument about style of play.  If Newkirk is a lost cause in running the motion offense, why play him?  Why not go ahead and bite the bullet and turn things over to Green and Durham?  Sure, there will be mistakes, but it's not like we're winning anyway.

If it takes time to learn the motion offense, what better use of a lost season than to give Justin Smith and Clifton Moore extended minutes?  That way, they have experience in the offense and can help teach it to next year's freshmen bigs.

But, Archie is not doing those things.  He's either misguided about what the veterans can do, or he's not willing to adapt his style even the slightest bit to accommodate the player's strengths.

Don't get me wrong.  I think Archie is a good coach.  I'm just not sure he's a good coach for this particular group of players.  How much of that is on the players and how much of that is on the coach is open for interpretation. But, it's not unreasonable to conclude it's a blend of both. 

 

  

[Southern IN Hoosier]

47 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Here's where I have trouble fully buying into the argument about style of play.  If Newkirk is a lost cause in running the motion offense, why play him?  Why not go ahead and bite the bullet and turn things over to Green and Durham?  Sure, there will be mistakes, but it's not like we're winning anyway.

If it takes time to learn the motion offense, what better use of a lost season than to give Justin Smith and Clifton Moore extended minutes?  That way, they have experience in the offense and can help teach it to next year's freshmen bigs.

But, Archie is not doing those things.  He's either misguided about what the veterans can do, or he's not willing to adapt his style even the slightest bit to accommodate the player's strengths.

Don't get me wrong.  I think Archie is a good coach.  I'm just not sure he's a good coach for this particular group of players.  How much of that is on the players and how much of that is on the coach is open for interpretation. But, it's not unreasonable to conclude it's a blend of both. 

 

  

How can you put much of this on Archie? He didn't recruit these players. He didn't put us in this mess of a roster. I agree that we all thought Archie would come in first year and it would all be good, but reality has set in and we are not good at all. This is the penalty we get for the roster mismanagement Crean put us in.

[Seeking6]

Having a team of compliment players isn't bad when you have OG, Vic, Yogi,  Cody, Bryant, Troy, JB JR (scoring), Hulls (scoring),etc to be the lead or alpha dogs. No way you you can win though with compliment players being your starting 5. This isn't an Archie problem. And honestly it's not a players problem. They didn't commit to this nor did Archie recruit these guys.

Find something positive out of each game and roll with it. Expecting plenty of wins on the road in Big 10 is a suicide mission. I was pretty happy we were up at 1st half considering Davis and game completely changed 2 minutes in. 

[FW_Hoosier]

So if Archie’s system is so complicated and takes so much time to learn, what can we expect next year when half the roster or more is made up of freshmen?

[Zuckerkorn]

The OP is correct, IMO.  I think we all were hoping for some magic from Archie - but apparently that was unrealistic.  I felt we would struggle at the beginning of the season and then (hopefully) improve toward the end of BT play.  Well, the first part was true but we aren't seeing the improvement (yet). 

IMO Archie is in a delicate part of the season.  It may be too early to "cut bait" on our starters, but if the team continues to flounder I can see the minutes shifting to the younger players by the middle of the BT season.

[Hoosierhoopster]

38 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

So if Archie’s system is so complicated and takes so much time to learn, what can we expect next year when half the roster or more is made up of freshmen?

Just look at what he did when he came into Dayton. Took a couple of years. Frosh come in and learn your system and style of play. And they'll be players you recruited for that style of play. You don't have to fully buy in to the OP's thoughts, but they're reasonable. Patience is not a bad thing.

[Reacher]

1 hour ago, Seeking6 said:

Find something positive out of each game and roll with it. 

The team shot 90% on its free throws!

[FW_Hoosier]

44 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Just look at what he did when he came into Dayton. Took a couple of years. Frosh come in and learn your system and style of play. And they'll be players you recruited for that style of play. You don't have to fully buy in to the OP's thoughts, but they're reasonable. Patience is not a bad thing.

I don’t think what he’s saying is entirely unreasonable.  But if that’s the case, it’s hard to be very optimistic about next year when the team is going to be made up mostly of 3 and 4 star freshmen and sophomores.    Romeo would obviously change the outlook, but I’m not counting on him coming to Bloomington at this point.  And for better or worse, a coach is going to be afforded less patience at IU than Dayton.  Two sub-par seasons in a row will have Archie’s seat getting warm going into Year 3.

[dbmhoosier]

My take regarding Smith and Moore not playing is that Archie doesn't see them fitting into his future plans here at IU and is trying to give them a hint.  That's why they're not playing much like Jones didnt. 

[13th&Jackson]

1 hour ago, Zuckerkorn said:

The OP is correct, IMO.  I think we all were hoping for some magic from Archie - but apparently that was unrealistic.  I felt we would struggle at the beginning of the season and then (hopefully) improve toward the end of BT play.  Well, the first part was true but we aren't seeing the improvement (yet). 

IMO Archie is in a delicate part of the season.  It may be too early to "cut bait" on our starters, but if the team continues to flounder I can see the minutes shifting to the younger players by the middle of the BT season.

I think from his experience, CAM will give the seniors more time to right the ship before starting to build for next season. His Dayton Elite Eight team started 1-5 in the A-10 and finished 10-6. Not expecting anything like that from this roster, but I'm sure the coaching staff believes there's still time for improvement.

Very frustrating though, that this team didn't go out and take advantage of a golden opportunity for a road conference win and to end the losing streak at Kohl's. No leadership and mentally soft, but that's been true since last season.

 

 

 

[Hoosier82]

3 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Here's where I have trouble fully buying into the argument about style of play.  If Newkirk is a lost cause in running the motion offense, why play him?  Why not go ahead and bite the bullet and turn things over to Green and Durham?  Sure, there will be mistakes, but it's not like we're winning anyway.

 

  

Because Newkirk is better than Green and Durham. Green might as well transfer because he clearly doesn't want to play Archie's style of ball. He gets in the game, does something stupid and gets pulled....like clock work. Durham, while I believe he has potential has only shown solid play in flashes and he doesn't have the experience to run the offense. He plays Newkirk because he gives us the best chance at winning and he at least tries to do what Archie wants him to on the court.

[IU Scott]

28 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

I don’t think what he’s saying is entirely unreasonable.  But if that’s the case, it’s hard to be very optimistic about next year when the team is going to be made up mostly of 3 and 4 star freshmen and sophomores.    Romeo would obviously change the outlook, but I’m not counting on him coming to Bloomington at this point.  And for better or worse, a coach is going to be afforded less patience at IU than Dayton.  Two sub-par seasons in a row will have Archie’s seat getting warm going into Year 3.

An example of a coach who struggled for two years and has turned it around is Bobby Hurley.  He won 15 and 16 games his first two years at ASU and now have them ranked in the top 5.  Hopefully Archie can do this once he gets his type of players playing his system.

[Proud2BAHoosier]

I thought this was pretty much a throw away season. Looks like it is so far

[addictedtoIU]

8 minutes ago, Proud2BAHoosier said:

I thought this was pretty much a throw away season. Looks like it is so far

Yeah...it seems like a total rebuilding year so far, but I'm still hoping for a nice turnaround at the end of season. But I gotta say it's been difficult to follow IU basketball with passion. I'm not as addicted to IU basketball as I used to be.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

I don’t think what he’s saying is entirely unreasonable.  But if that’s the case, it’s hard to be very optimistic about next year when the team is going to be made up mostly of 3 and 4 star freshmen and sophomores.    Romeo would obviously change the outlook, but I’m not counting on him coming to Bloomington at this point.  And for better or worse, a coach is going to be afforded less patience at IU than Dayton.  Two sub-par seasons in a row will have Archie’s seat getting warm going into Year 3.

Not sure I agree that his seat would get warm after two years, with a roster comprised of Crean's players entirely this year, and still mostly next year. Once the team has a majority of the roster his recruits, then it becomes fair to judge.

[Proud2BAHoosier]

18 minutes ago, addictedtoIU said:

Yeah...it seems like a total rebuilding year so far, but I'm still hoping for a nice turnaround at the end of season. But I gotta say it's been difficult to follow IU basketball with passion. I'm not as addicted to IU basketball as I used to be.

I see what you did in that last sentence, and I have to admit, I'm not quite so Proud......

[hoosiertildeath]

The only thing that is keeping my sanity intact regarding IU Men's and Women's basketball teams is by LOOKING at the ROSTER ADDITIONS that Both  Squads are adding for the 2018-2019  SEASON !! WATCHING THIS CURRENT EDITION OF HOOSIERS IS NOT DOING ANYTHING POSITIVE FOR  my SANITY , VBG !!

[BGleas]

My stance hasn't really changed. I like what I see from Archie, and as I said most of the summer, I think this roster is horribly constructed which is why IU is struggling. I think Archie has a real chance to be the long-term solution at IU, if everyone has patience. He's a "basketball guy", a "coaches, coach". He grew up around the game, has spent his entire life in the gym playing, coaching, etc. I think he'll eventually really connect well with recruits and high school/AAU coaches, because he speaks their language. I think he's really good on the X's and O's side with game-planning, adjustments, etc., and it just remains to be seen to what level he'll be able to recruit. 

If I have one criticism so far, it's that he didn't clean house a bit when first taking over. I don't know what the thought process was, maybe he felt it was the right thing to do in keeping everyone, maybe he felt he needed to fight the old "Creaning" perception from IU to really implement his inside/out strategy, maybe he didn't have a ton of high level recruit contacts from being at Dayton so felt he couldn't really get anyone for the '17 class on short notice. May it's all the above or non of the above. 

But, I'll hold firm with how I felt all summer, this roster isn't good. That's why this team stinks. I don't care what the rankings say, the roster just isn't there. It's an NIT team that lost it's 3 best players and didn't really add anyone. We have no length, no athleticism, no size on the perimeter whatsoever. No pure shooter. No pure scorer. No pure ballhandler/point guard. No leaders. No interior depth. Outside of Morgan, it's a bunch of role players who don't fit together. As someone else said, the thought that Davis was going to be better than Bryant was laughable. Yes Bryant had some issues last season, but he's a stud compared to Davis. 

If you're going to have a bunch of role players, then you need some specialists. You need a shooter, you need a rebounder, you need a defender, you need leader, etc. You don't need guys with all the skills, but guys that specialize in a particular thing, and this team has none of that outside of Morgan. It's a bunch of guys limited athletically that are average to slightly above-average at some things, but nobody is really good at any one thing. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

I tend to think the talent is good enough for this team to be a top 5-7 team in conference, but these guys just aren't clicking, at least yet, or regularly, in CAM's system. I agree we don't have a truly elite outside shooter to help spread the floor, but guys like Rob and Collin can shoot (and should be shooting) at least north of 36%. Morgan can be a very good rebounder.  Rob can be a very good defender. We're short on leaders. We're short on consistent dribble penetrators to the rim. We're short on moxie and grit outside of Morgan. I don't think the roster stinks, but it's not firing on all cylinders. It probably should be by now, but it's not too late for the team to find itself. 

[BobSaccamanno]

I am literally surprised by the negative talk about Archie.  Some people start sentences with "all due respect," and then blast somebody.  Here, the signal is "I like Archie but..."

Last night's game was awful and we are fairly unanimous in the gripe that the bulk of the team lacked energy, enthusiasm, intensity, motor, effort, however you want to characterize it.  There is no question that the Wisconsin team was very beatable.  But, you've got guys playing dumb and unenergetically.  "That's no way to go through life." 

Archie is very intense and is insisting on hard play, but he can't physically walk on the floor and make them exhibit real energy.  Sorry, we need to operate in the real world.  He's inherited someone else's roster and it is not very good right now no matter how people want to analyze it.  I have accepted that this season, we will not be playing in any post-season, and that next year will be a work in progress.  That's reality.  Patience is required.  I like Archie's approach across the board.   There is no such thing as a perfect coach because the other side has coaches and scholly players too.  Not everything works.  

Imagine if Archie gets Jackson-Davis, Brooks and Hemenway in 2019 to go with Thompson, Forrester, Phinisee, Hunter, and Anderson.   That will be a heck of a rotation when they are Sophs and Juniors.  In the meantime, we are a work in progress.  Fans get a bad name for their knee-jerk, unsophisticated reactions to immediacy.  It happens even at Indiana.  

We won't know know what we really have until around 2021.  No way is Archie's seat hot before that unless some serious *&%$ hits the fan.  That's reality.

 

[BGleas]

10 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I tend to think the talent is good enough for this team to be a top 5-7 team in conference, but these guys just aren't clicking, at least yet, or regularly, in CAM's system. I agree we don't have a truly elite outside shooter to help spread the floor, but guys like Rob and Collin can shoot (and should be shooting) at least north of 36%. Morgan can be a very good rebounder.  Rob can be a very good defender. We're short on leaders. We're short on consistent dribble penetrators to the rim. We're short on moxie and grit outside of Morgan. I don't think the roster stinks, but it's not firing on all cylinders. It probably should be by now, but it's not too late for the team to find itself. 

Maybe I'm not articulating my point well enough. Yes, RoJo and Collin can shoot, but neither have ever really been light's out, shooting specialists. Morgan is a good rebounder, but he can't do everything, and would be well served to have a rebounding specialist (no, not Freddie McSwain) alongside him on the interior. Etc. 

May this will explain. I like Al Durham, and am just using him as an example here. Al is a role player on this team, as pretty much everyone out side Morgan is. He's a solid defender, solid ball-handler, usually makes good decisions, can finish at times when he gets in the lane, etc. Nice player with decent upside that's pretty good at a variety of things. But with that said, I would take a Matt Roth or Nick Zeisloft in a heartbeat over Al this team. Al is more gifted, but this team would be better served with Roth standing in the corner when Morgan is double-teamed or Zeisloft spotting up behind the arc on the break, etc, even with their athletic/defensive issues. 

That's just one example, but I hope it articulates my point. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

47 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Maybe I'm not articulating my point well enough. Yes, RoJo and Collin can shoot, but neither have ever really been light's out, shooting specialists. Morgan is a good rebounder, but he can't do everything, and would be well served to have a rebounding specialist (no, not Freddie McSwain) alongside him on the interior. Etc. 

May this will explain. I like Al Durham, and am just using him as an example here. Al is a role player on this team, as pretty much everyone out side Morgan is. He's a solid defender, solid ball-handler, usually makes good decisions, can finish at times when he gets in the lane, etc. Nice player with decent upside that's pretty good at a variety of things. But with that said, I would take a Matt Roth or Nick Zeisloft in a heartbeat over Al this team. Al is more gifted, but this team would be better served with Roth standing in the corner when Morgan is double-teamed or Zeisloft spotting up behind the arc on the break, etc, even with their athletic/defensive issues. 

That's just one example, but I hope it articulates my point. 

I don't really have an issue with your position Gleas (though I value Nick Z highly over Roth, Nick was a far better all around player), however, I don't think this team "stinks." I think it's still at least possible that, if they can get it together (the big if) they could still turn the season around to a better ending than things look now. Also think that these posts reflect hard reactions to single games, the trees instead of the forest. This is not a strong team, I said from this summer that I thought they'd struggle losing 3 players to the pros and having only 1 returning double digit scorer, but there has been gradual improvement this year. The extreme posts come after losses. We were ahead at the half. We absolutely got hosed, yet again, at Kohl by crappy and home-bent officiating. We haven't won there since 1998. So yes, I have my own issues with the team and its weaknesses, but I don't think they stink.

[BGleas]

3 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I don't really have an issue with your position Gleas (though I value Nick Z highly over Roth, Nick was a far better all around player), however, I don't think this team "stinks." I think it's still at least possible that, if they can get it together (the big if) they could still turn the season around to a better ending than things look now. Also think that these posts reflect hard reactions to single games, the trees instead of the forest. This is not a strong team, I said from this summer that I thought they'd struggle losing 3 players to the pros and having only 1 returning double digit scorer, but there has been gradual improvement this year. The extreme posts come after losses. We were ahead at the half. We absolutely got hosed, yet again, at Kohl by crappy and home-bent officiating. We haven't won there since 1998. So yes, I have my own issues with the team and its weaknesses, but I don't think they stink.

I may have worded it improperly, what I meant was that the roster composition stinks, not necessarily the players themselves. As a collective this is not a good roster, it's poorly contructed and the pieces don't fit well together. I agree and expect the team to play better at times this season and improve in various spots, but not sure how sustainable it will be. My points aren't extreme posts after a loss though, I was saying similar things about the roster composition during the offseason when there was that thread about how we had the talent to finish top 3ish in the conference. 

 

[Proud2BAHoosier]

31 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I don't really have an issue with your position Gleas (though I value Nick Z highly over Roth, Nick was a far better all around player), however, I don't think this team "stinks." I think it's still at least possible that, if they can get it together (the big if) they could still turn the season around to a better ending than things look now. Also think that these posts reflect hard reactions to single games, the trees instead of the forest. This is not a strong team, I said from this summer that I thought they'd struggle losing 3 players to the pros and having only 1 returning double digit scorer, but there has been gradual improvement this year. The extreme posts come after losses. We were ahead at the half. We absolutely got hosed, yet again, at Kohl by crappy and home-bent officiating. We haven't won there since 1998. So yes, I have my own issues with the team and its weaknesses, but I don't think they stink.

I think they stink.

HH, I guess our noses will have to agree to disagree.....