Jump to content

Coach Mike Woodson Megathread


Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, BruceDouglas said:

Good read if you are a subscriber.

 

 

Agree that it's a good read.  Interesting to see Coach Davis and the former players speak so frankly about all the coaches after Knight.  That's a lot more insight than you get from most articles on Indiana basketball.  Thanks for sharing.

...and the insight on Archie Miller...just brutal.

Edited by FKIM01
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hillman: I called Fred (Glass), we talked a few times, I told him, “This is an absolutely horrible hire.” He said he was sorry to hear me say that. I told him, “I’ll support you and the program, but I think it’s the wrong guy.” Archie never bought into one thing that Indiana was all about. Crean tried, to his credit. Archie, nope.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Agree that it's a good read.  Interesting to see Coach Davis and the former players speak so frankly about all the coached after Knight.  That's a lot more insight than you get from most articles on Indiana basketball.  Thanks for sharing.

...and the insight on Archie Miller...just brutal.

Is the Hillman quote the gist of the brutal insight, or is there more?  I'm not a subscriber, nor do I want you to kill me.  I am interested in what the article says though.  

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Is the Hillman quote the gist of the brutal insight, or is there more?  I'm not a subscriber, nor do I want you to kill me.  I am interested in what the article says though.  

Hillman is just a sample of what the former players said about Archie.  I didn't see anyone interviewed saying positive things about Archie.  One of them called him a rental.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Hillman: I called Fred (Glass), we talked a few times, I told him, “This is an absolutely horrible hire.” He said he was sorry to hear me say that. I told him, “I’ll support you and the program, but I think it’s the wrong guy.” Archie never bought into one thing that Indiana was all about. Crean tried, to his credit. Archie, nope.

He was.... atrocious the ENTIRE time. Glass was a tremendous AD, but that hire sucked. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Hillman is just a sample of what the former players said about Archie.  I didn't see anyone interviewed saying positive things about Archie.  One of them called him a rental.

Strangely enough, I googled Woodson' and 'The Athletic' and was given a link I could use without a subscription.  So I read the complete story.  You are right.  The Miller comments were all negative.  Here's one that stood out to me.   

Garrett: But I remember when I went back the night Coach Knight came back, all of us were back there on the practice court, and yeah, I know they had a big game against Purdue that day, but I felt it would have been important to get those players there early and take five, 10 minutes to see the guys you’re playing for. Sure, you’re playing for your family and yourselves, but there’s another family, the IU family; there were 50 of us there that night and he never came over and said anything to us. I saw that and thought, “He doesn’t get it.”

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

More on Archie

Evans: Being stoic on the court is one thing, but there was no warmth to him, none. He had me in town for some fantasy camp, and I was so blown away by the shitty effort put forward by Archie and his staff. I was embarrassed. Honestly, embarrassed. These guys mailed it in and did nothing. For the guys who came to the camp and paid for this, it sucked. … They got nothing out of it.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Strangely enough, I googled Woodson' and 'The Athletic' and was given a link I could use without a subscription.  So I read the complete story.  You are right.  The Miller comments were all negative.  Here's one that stood out to me.   

Garrett: But I remember when I went back the night Coach Knight came back, all of us were back there on the practice court, and yeah, I know they had a big game against Purdue that day, but I felt it would have been important to get those players there early and take five, 10 minutes to see the guys you’re playing for. Sure, you’re playing for your family and yourselves, but there’s another family, the IU family; there were 50 of us there that night and he never came over and said anything to us. I saw that and thought, “He doesn’t get it.”

 

21 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

More on Archie

Evans: Being stoic on the court is one thing, but there was no warmth to him, none. He had me in town for some fantasy camp, and I was so blown away by the shitty effort put forward by Archie and his staff. I was embarrassed. Honestly, embarrassed. These guys mailed it in and did nothing. For the guys who came to the camp and paid for this, it sucked. … They got nothing out of it.

Yeah, they were all bad.  I found the honestly refreshing, but yikes.  Makes me wonder how he'll be at Rhode Island after the "new" wears off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

I can read The Athletic without a subscription, but if I told you how, I'd have to kill ya...

For some odd reason, the story showed up in my Google list this morning, and I was able to read the whole thing...

3 observations from it... 

The downfall of IU basketball lays squarely at the feet of the Indiana University administration, starting with Myles Brand and continuing with Adam Herbert and Rick Greenspan. We can cite coaches from now til the cows come home but 20+years of ineptitude started at the top.

Bob Kravitz is a hypocrite. He was one of the biggest Knight bashers around. For him to write a column like that is like a cartel thug wondering why we have so many fentanyl deaths.

I wish the players would have been more vocal early on about the Archie years. I know that may have been viewed as bad form, but if it was as bad as some, particularly Evans and Hillman, portray it they should have spoken out then. Archie may have been in over his head, but he was the coach when RMK came back, and if I remember correctly, Knight himself praised the hire as a good one... 

Edited by IUFLA
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

For some odd reason, the story showed up in my Google list this morning, and I was able to read the whole thing...

3 observations from it... 

The downfall of IU basketball lays squarely at the feet of the Indiana University administration, starting with Myles Brand and continuing with Adam Herbert and Rick Greenspan. We can cite coaches from now til the cows come home but 20+years of ineptitude started at the top.

Bob Kravitz is a hypocrite. He was one of the biggest Knight bashers around. For him to write a column like that is like a cartel thug wondering why we have so many fentanyl deaths.

I wish the players would have been more vocal early on about the Archie years. I know that may have been viewed as bad form, but if it was as bad as some, particularly Evans and Hillman, portray it they should have spoken out then. Archie may have been in over his head, but he was the coach when RMK came back, and if I remember correctly, Knight himself praised the hire as a good one... 

I just read it too…

Regarding your last paragraph, hindsight is 20/20. I think many thought Archie would be a great hire. A guy could have the experience, say all the right things in interviews, but it will always be hard to know how he will perform when he’s in the thick of it.

At the time, we were mad at Crean for a) lack of defense and b) not getting in-state recruits. Everybody wanted something different - even Knight. CAM was the ‘anti-Crean’ in that sense…..but a complete ‘anti-Crean’ coach, in hindsight, was an over-correction. We lost all the things Crean excelled at too. We lost the shooting. We lost the enthusiasm. We lost the respect for the program’s history and at least attempting to use that to our advantage. Crean tried and understood in a way that CAM couldn’t. 

If we’re being honest, I think Woody is getting away with things another coach couldn’t because he’s an insider. ‘Outsider’ coaches don’t get the benefit of the doubt when they attempt to adapt to the modern game. Woody has primarily recruited outside of Indiana. He’s a player’s coach. He wants to instill a 4 out/1 in offense. Could another coach not tied to the program do this and avoid criticism? I honestly don’t think so. I thought an ‘IU hire’ wasn’t the sure-fire answer during our last coaching search, perhaps I was wrong, and I’m beginning to understand why. Our program (fans, former players, administration, etc.) is too stubborn to let an outsider succeed. 

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

If we’re being honest, I think Woody is getting away with things another coach couldn’t because he’s an insider. ‘Outsider’ coaches don’t get the benefit of the doubt when they attempt to adapt to the modern game. Woody has primarily recruited outside of Indiana. He’s a player’s coach. He wants to instill a 4 out/1 in offense. Could another coach not tied to the program do this and avoid criticism? I honestly don’t think so. 

IF...Woody is "getting away" with anything it's over hauling a very bad culture instilled over 20+ years. He has essentially brought his style of BBall to IU, and is going after the best players, IN or outside of IN. I don't see how anyone can criticize him for going after top notch players (that fit in his system). 

In his first year, he got us back to the tournament with a couple of really good players and the rest were mediocre. He's instilled a defense that can actually be learned, and implemented in one season. And by all accounts they did pretty good at it. And his offense really wasn't 4 out, 1 in, because we didn't have the players to execute it correctly. We did play it some, but it wasn't the staple it was portraide to be. I think we'll see a better offense this year (only time will tell).

Personally I don't think he's getting away with anything. If he keeps winning, that solves a lot of underlying issues with fans. I'm also glad he blew up the old culture and is trying to establish his.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I just read it too…

Regarding your last paragraph, hindsight is 20/20. I think many thought Archie would be a great hire. A guy could have the experience, say all the right things in interviews, but it will always be hard to know how he will perform when he’s in the thick of it.

At the time, we were mad at Crean for a) lack of defense and b) not getting in-state recruits. Everybody wanted something different - even Knight. CAM was the ‘anti-Crean’ in that sense…..but a complete ‘anti-Crean’ coach, in hindsight, was an over-correction. We lost all the things Crean excelled at too. We lost the shooting. We lost the enthusiasm. We lost the respect for the program’s history and at least attempting to use that to our advantage. Crean tried and understood in a way that CAM couldn’t. 

If we’re being honest, I think Woody is getting away with things another coach couldn’t because he’s an insider. ‘Outsider’ coaches don’t get the benefit of the doubt when they attempt to adapt to the modern game. Woody has primarily recruited outside of Indiana. He’s a player’s coach. He wants to instill a 4 out/1 in offense. Could another coach not tied to the program do this and avoid criticism? I honestly don’t think so. I thought an ‘IU hire’ wasn’t the sure-fire answer during our last coaching search, perhaps I was wrong, and I’m beginning to understand why. Our program (fans, former players, administration, etc.) is too stubborn to let an outsider succeed. 

True that hindsight is 20/20, but digging through the archives I reread this article from @The Daily Hoosier. It seems Archie was ready and willing to embrace the Knight legacy and the players from his tenure.

But I think you're correct in saying that any outsider was never going to get the benefit of doubt from "Knight guys." I'm not sure they ever realized that you didn't have to be a part of the history to appreciate it. 

I think your statement about Coach Woodson getting more latitude rings true, while at the same time we as fans look at the talent the state has produced lately and realize we can't get where we want relying solely on that talent. 

I'm glad we have Coach Woodson. I love his passion for the program. But after the uneveness of last year, I think we need to see results now. We have the most experience coming back, a potential All American as our star, and a great recruiting class coming in. I don't know where the bar is this year, but in my book, it's pretty high. 

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, DWB said:

IF...Woody is "getting away" with anything it's over hauling a very bad culture instilled over 20+ years. He has essentially brought his style of BBall to IU, and is going after the best players, IN or outside of IN. I don't see how anyone can criticize him for going after top notch players (that fit in his system). 

In his first year, he got us back to the tournament with a couple of really good players and the rest were mediocre. He's instilled a defense that can actually be learned, and implemented in one season. And by all accounts they did pretty good at it. And his offense really wasn't 4 out, 1 in, because we didn't have the players to execute it correctly. We did play it some, but it wasn't the staple it was portraide to be. I think we'll see a better offense this year (only time will tell).

Personally I don't think he's getting away with anything. If he keeps winning, that solves a lot of underlying issues with fans. I'm also glad he blew up the old culture and is trying to establish his.

This wasn't a criticism of Woody. Either your misunderstanding my post or perhaps I should have made my point clearer. Maybe I used the term 'getting away with' when I should've used the phrase 'given more latitude' (as @IUFLA eloquently put it). 

Example, it already seems that Woody will get a free pass if he let's Xavier Booker slip away. Could you imagine if an outsider coach fired Dane Fife? How would we feel about another coach not traveling to see recruits?

Again, I think Woody is doing a fine job so far, but if he didn't have ties to IU he definitely would be receiving a lot more criticism....especially amongst the former players. 

....And for the record, I think Woody's approach to things needed to happen. Our expectations as a program needed to adapt. Woody, a former player with a long and successful stint in the NBA, seems (so far) to be the perfect guy to usher in that adaptation. I'm not sure an outsider would 'be given the latitude' to make this happen.....every step he'd make would be scrutinized to some degree. 

Edited by tdhoosier
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

, I think Woody's approach to things needed to happen. Our expectations as a program needed to adapt. Woody, a former player with a long and successful stint in the NBA, seems (so far) to be the perfect guy to usher in that adaptation. I'm not sure an outsider would 'be given the latitude' to make this happen.....every step he'd make would be scrutinized to some degree. 

X 1,000

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I'm glad we have Coach Woodson. I love his passion for the program. But after the uneveness of last year, I think we need to see results now. We have the most experience coming back, a potential All American as our star, and a great recruiting class coming in. I don't know where the bar is this year, but in my book, it's pretty high. 

I agree and I don't. It's hard for me to look at the roster - largely identical to the one that finished 9th in the conference and needed a deep BTT run just to earn a play-in bid to the Tournament - and think we're somehow now Big Ten favorites. We have a lot of great pieces, but we also know they don't fit together all that well. For whatever his other faults, Parker Stewart was also our best three point shooter, in both rate and volume. We have a veteran PG, but our experience is otherwise concentrated in the frontcourt. To dramatically improve this team needs someone unproven to step up, freshman or otherwise, and it's an open question as to who that will be. So my expectations for this team are somewhat less than those thinking Big Ten Championship. I'd be thrilled with a top three conference finish and a Sweet Sixteen berth. That would still be arguably be one of the five best seasons of the past 25 years.

I do agree last season was uneven, far more middling than the memory created by those last few games (St Marys aside). It's fair to allow a transition season, but last year's results need to be the absolute floor for the Woodson administration going forward, and would be wholly disappointing if repeated. We need to show clear improvement and progress in year two.

I think where I disagree is with the idea that we need to set the bar high. I was as vocal a critic of Archie as anyone, pretty much from the jump. But some of the rhetoric used in his defense was not without merit. Woodson in year two is still working around guys he inherited. Talented as those pieces may be, some skills are clearly lacking, or overlap. His own recruits are only just now entering the program; his second class is not yet complete, let alone stacked on the first. Woodson is also working to change a culture, which even fans watching from their living rooms could tell had stagnated over the four years of the previous administration.

The problem with the Archie era wasn't that these defenses were false, it's that we never saw any progress toward overcoming these challenges after four years of waiting. Yet some were still willing to give a fifth year, I guess to see what might happen. It feels weird, then, to see calls for results now from Woodson. In no way would a repeat of last season be acceptable. But I don't need a '11-'12 type breakout season either. We have the ceiling for it, sure. It'll be enough for me, though, if I see us improve on the issues and outcomes from last season, establish some consistency, and keep a strong recruiting pipeline flowing into the program. That will be enough to keep my optimism alive, even if we fall short of a Sweet Sixteen.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

To dramatically improve this team needs someone unproven to step up, freshman or otherwise

That can pretty much be said for every team in the Big 10.

Only 6 players (TJD, Hunter Dickinson, Zach Edey, Malik Hall, Jamison Battle, and Tyler Wahl) off the All Big 10 1st, 2nd, 3rd teams or Honorable Mention (25 total player) are back. 

Only one player (Chucky Hepburn) off the All Freshman team is back. 

The bar should be high based on the experience we have coming back, and what other teams have lost. 

To be honest, my expectations aren't that out of line (top 3 Big 10 and Sweet 16) with what you posted. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

This wasn't a criticism of Woody. Either your misunderstanding my post or perhaps I should have made my point clearer. Maybe I used the term 'getting away with' when I should've used the phrase 'given more latitude' (as @IUFLA eloquently put it). 

Example, it already seems that Woody will get a free pass if he let's Xavier Booker slip away. Could you imagine if an outsider coach fired Dane Fife? How would we feel about another coach not traveling to see recruits?

Again, I think Woody is doing a fine job so far, but if he didn't have ties to IU he definitely would be receiving a lot more criticism....especially amongst the former players. 

....And for the record, I think Woody's approach to things needed to happen. Our expectations as a program needed to adapt. Woody, a former player with a long and successful stint in the NBA, seems (so far) to be the perfect guy to usher in that adaptation. I'm not sure an outsider would 'be given the latitude' to make this happen.....every step he'd make would be scrutinized to some degree. 

Thanx for clarifying. Semantics can be a b_tch sometimes.

For this fan, I wouldn't care who the coach is if he "takes charge" and brings back a culture of winning, and doing it right, the Indiana way. We do have a legacy to protect. If Fife was a lone wolf (only term I can think of right now, probably not the best) and always went against the grain with Woody, especially if it was openly expressed, then any HC has the right to make a change. (Personally I was surprised by the dismissal. But Woody is the HC. His house, his way).

If Woody is not traveling to see every recruit that's fine with me too. But remember how he got Malik. He didn't go see Malik @ Mt Verde(sp?). He contacted him for a private work out while he was in FL. If he can get the recruits HE wants to come to him, more power to him. IMO, being one of many in the stands at a game isn't as important as the connection you make thru any and all sources available. I suspect there is a lot of contact we know nothing about with certain recruits. And so far, Woody's "closing skills" have been stellar overall.

I think the distinction with Woody is that Hoosier Nation somewhat automatically gave Woody a fair amount of "trust" because he was a former player, that most (not all) other coaches would not receive until it was earned. So I agree with your assessment of that.

 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...