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Clif Marshall


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If there were multiple workout related injuries....even half the amount that people want to attribute to Clif...Tim Garl would have spoken up and put an end to those workouts. You don't think players would speak up and complain? You think they would praise him to the new staff? You think the staff would retain him? We want to put W/Ls on the trainer and not on Archie?? Did we lose those OT games because we were too tired or because we couldn't hit a jumper to save our lives? I don't necessarily even think we have guys that are out of shape. I mean Trayce played almost 35 minutes a game....look around at the other teams in the country and name any that their starting Center played more minutes than him? How many 6'9 guys can motor up and down leading your team in minutes and bang with other 6'10 guys and battle for 35 minutes a game. How many times did commentators talk about Race Thompsons transformation and guys bouncing off of him? He also avg almost 30 mins a game. Granted every team can be in better shape...bigger/stronger...and every coach comes in and says the same thing...."this team will be the most well conditioned team in the country" "we will never lose another game because we were too tired to finish"....thats coach talk. Sure some team are lazy...but this team wasn't. Coach just wants to come in and set a tone...but in reality not a whole lot needs to change in that. I think a lot of people think we needed to be in better shape because we were always walking it up the floor...but really that is just Archie's style not that the kids couldn't run. Heck we all saw them running and gunning early in the season flying around...freshman galloping like race horses....these kids are getting good training. They may need tweek som things to better suit the new coach but laying the blame of injuries at the trainer...thats just lazy. Unless kids come out and say they got hurt lifting you can't just make your own conclusion. Injuries happen when you play a physical sport. I imagine as hard as Archie coached defense and intensity practices were rough. Many kids have over riding health conditions that lead to injuries. I just think people have a narrative. I've never been a huge fan of Clif and the workout pics and videos etc...but I don't for one second think he isn't good at his job or is causing injuries because I hate watching 40 inch vertical hype videos.

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24 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I'm sorry but I truthfully do not understand the complaints about Marshall at all. I have a hard time believing the criticism is warranted and furthermore I don't believe many on here are qualified to judge his work. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we are just trying to find someone to blame.  

Every fan base has to have a scape goat. Archie is gone. New coaches at the top are IU guys. Basketball is a contact sport...yet people want to think most the injuries are occuring off the court....sure..that is the most likely scenario.

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2 minutes ago, dgambill said:

If there were multiple workout related injuries....even half the amount that people want to attribute to Clif...Tim Garl would have spoken up and put an end to those workouts. You don't think players would speak up and complain? You think they would praise him to the new staff? You think the staff would retain him? We want to put W/Ls on the trainer and not on Archie?? Did we lose those OT games because we were too tired or because we couldn't hit a jumper to save our lives? I don't necessarily even think we have guys that are out of shape. I mean Trayce played almost 35 minutes a game....look around at the other teams in the country and name any that their starting Center played more minutes than him? How many 6'9 guys can motor up and down leading your team in minutes and bang with other 6'10 guys and battle for 35 minutes a game. How many times did commentators talk about Race Thompsons transformation and guys bouncing off of him? He also avg almost 30 mins a game. Granted every team can be in better shape...bigger/stronger...and every coach comes in and says the same thing...."this team will be the most well conditioned team in the country" "we will never lose another game because we were too tired to finish"....thats coach talk. Sure some team are lazy...but this team wasn't. Coach just wants to come in and set a tone...but in reality not a whole lot needs to change in that. I think a lot of people think we needed to be in better shape because we were always walking it up the floor...but really that is just Archie's style not that the kids couldn't run. Heck we all saw them running and gunning early in the season flying around...freshman galloping like race horses....these kids are getting good training. They may need tweek som things to better suit the new coach but laying the blame of injuries at the trainer...thats just lazy. Unless kids come out and say they got hurt lifting you can't just make your own conclusion. Injuries happen when you play a physical sport. I imagine as hard as Archie coached defense and intensity practices were rough. Many kids have over riding health conditions that lead to injuries. I just think people have a narrative. I've never been a huge fan of Clif and the workout pics and videos etc...but I don't for one second think he isn't good at his job or is causing injuries because I hate watching 40 inch vertical hype videos.

I'll also add that constantly having to dig back from 15-2 runs is tough, I don't care how well conditioned you are. 

In the end, the narrative that specifically lifting was causing all these injuries is pure speculation. Have we heard otherwise from any legit source? From the day Cliff was hired we spoke talked about his emphasis on recovery to keep the guys fresh and injury free. I remember having an in depth conversation about that on this board 3-4 years ago. A guy doesn't get to this level with out understanding the importance of lifting mechanics and recovery. 

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16 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I'll also add that constantly having to dig back from 15-2 runs is tough, I don't care how well conditioned you are. 

In the end, the narrative that specifically lifting was causing all these injuries is pure speculation. Have we heard otherwise from any legit source? From the day Cliff was hired we spoke talked about his emphasis on recovery to keep the guys fresh and injury free. I remember having an in depth conversation about that on this board 3-4 years ago. A guy doesn't get to this level with out understanding the importance of lifting mechanics and recovery. 

Absolutely....it is more about sustaining offensive momentum to constantly come back then they ran out of gas. We couldn't string baskets together...that was our problem.

A guy with his NFL qualifications understands the whole relationship off all that stuff. Geez. Let's look at his credentials, his resume, and his client base. It even says he works closely with IU Nutritionist, Larry Rink, Tim Garl....come on guys this dog don't hunt. No offense to anyone on this board, and I absolutely believe there are some well educated people and maybe even in the subject of training and exercise but I'll take the experts at IU medical and athletics department over anyone here. If we have multiple reported instances of injuries due to his training...I'm all ears...I don't just have blind trust...it's ok to question experts....but we have ZERO evidence. Heck people are making more of Clif with nothing to support them then those that had questions about Yasir with absolute evidence to his involvement in attempting to cheat on FBI record. Believe what you want. I can absolutely question say perhaps too much time is spent in the weight room and not enough on working on shooting...I'd probably be wrong but I can make a claim...but to say a guy is inept and basically derelict in his duty seems a very big stretch.

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I know nobody is saying we need to stop lifting, but one of the major and most important aspects of lifting is to negate muscle imbalances. I'm no expert but I have to educate myself about this stuff and lean on my wife a lot because she it a physical therapist. Susceptibility to injuries often stems from a muscle imbalance. All sports require an athlete to use specific muscles; it's very important to strengthen the muscles that don't get used as much. For example a pitcher's shoulder is primarily worked via a pushing motion. Pitcher's should be counter-acting this motion with a pulling motion to strengthen the upper back. Sometimes 'over-use' is a misconception because it caused by the under-use of the balancing muscle(s). 

Anyway, I'm just pointing out that weightlifting, if done the right way, is just as critical for strengthening muscle imbalances and injury prevention as it is for speed, explosiveness, mass, etc. And I'm sure any strength guy, in any D1 college program knows this. 

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36 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

You can't fix stupid. 

I don't think people that are critical of Clif are stupid for having that opinion. That seems a bit harsh...I just think they have concerns about our injury history and are misplacing the blame when in reality...the act of playing basketball itself...especially at such a high level as intensely as we see is going to result in a lot of injuries. Heck we had several leg injuries this year from just landing on people's feet and an elbow in the nose that effected our season as much if not more than anything (both Armaan and Race's effectiveness went way down)...totally just a result of bad luck. Look at the NBA...half the players on every team are on the IL on any given night.

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6 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I don't think people that are critical of Clif are stupid for having that opinion. That seems a bit harsh...I just think they have concerns about our injury history and are misplacing the blame when in reality...the act of playing basketball itself...especially at such a high level as intensely as we see is going to result in a lot of injuries. Heck we had several leg injuries this year from just landing on people's feet and an elbow in the nose that effected our season as much if not more than anything (both Armaan and Race's effectiveness went way down)...totally just a result of bad luck. Look at the NBA...half the players on every team are on the IL on any given night.

You're probably right. I'm just tired of the thought that Marshall has caused the injuries and lack of shooting ability. When in reality it is misplace blame because people aren't informed and are holding on to old myths and half truths about lifting and basketball. 

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12 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

You're probably right. I'm just tired of the thought that Marshall has caused the injuries and lack of shooting ability. When in reality it is misplace blame because people aren't informed and are holding on to old myths and half truths about lifting and basketball. 

This is a really good post. 

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2 hours ago, btownqb said:

I think it's incredibly lazy to blame the strength coach for losses and or back problems. I've also never heard of lower abdominal issues being related to weight training... did we have multiple of those? Did they say they were from lifting?

Do you have any sort of credentials to be passing this judgment on Marshall or is your only information from the internet? And I am not trying to make that sound rude. I legitimately don't understand the criticism whatsoever. 

Fair point.  Speaking only for myself, you can’t find me saying a single thing assessing the details of the strength and conditioning plan.  I am not qualified and so I stay in my lane.  

On the main point, I am glad that we are emphasizing conditioning.  That’s right out of the Bob Knight playbook.  He had no use for the unconditioned.  Run, run and run some more in games.  You need to be highly conditioned.  

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1 minute ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Fair point.  Speaking only for myself, you can’t find me saying a single thing assessing the details of the strength and conditioning plan.  I am not qualified and so I stay in my lane.  

On the main point, I am glad that we are emphasizing conditioning.  That’s right out of the Bob Knight playbook.  He had no use for the unconditioned.  Run, run and run some more in games.  You need to be highly conditioned.  

I'm not saying I'm qualified at all, to be clear. I am just missing the blaming on Marshall. Is there information that is common knowledge that I am missing? Would Woodson keep someone on staff that wasn't doing a good job? I just don't understand where any of this is coming from... and if it's all just speculation, well... I find that "not smart." 

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The one I really don't understand is blaming Clif for the shooting issues we've had; NBA players are stronger than they've probably ever been, at least on the perimeter, and shooting is as good as it's ever been. 

There are several reasons our guys haven't made shots; some of them have terrible form (Trey) and some of them have major issues between the ears (Rob). And some of them are pretty good shooters that needed to play in an offense that helps them get more open looks. 

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1 hour ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Fair point.  Speaking only for myself, you can’t find me saying a single thing assessing the details of the strength and conditioning plan.  I am not qualified and so I stay in my lane.  

On the main point, I am glad that we are emphasizing conditioning.  That’s right out of the Bob Knight playbook.  He had no use for the unconditioned.  Run, run and run some more in games.  You need to be highly conditioned.  

Agreed. One thing all players need is conditioning. Now, the thing with the players though is they all have different needs in terms of what they need. Some players need more work to increase their explosiveness, some do need to build mass and strength, some need to increase flexibility. Some need lower body work, some core, some upper body...gosh every kid is going to have a different plan. Some need to work on reaction and quickness. They all have different things they need to improve to compete...but conditioning...everything basketball related falls apart if you are not conditioned. Your reaction to the ball, your concentration, your defense, your shooting. We have to have well conditioned athletes and I know Knight worked hard on that. Heck given how he would often have a short bench in many years if he didn't trust the kids they had to be well conditioned. He had no patience for mental mistakes...and those happen when kids get tired.

 We've come a long way in how they train, how they manage their food, but in the end...the most work still has to be done on the floor. Kids have to devote the most time to their craft. Seen several skinny kids that couldn't bench press more than the minimum or some guys that ate a few too many cheeseburgers but they could ball! Just have to find the right mix of kids and given all they have to help them at IU....will take advantage of that help and take their game to the next level.

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5 hours ago, btownqb said:

I'm not saying I'm qualified at all, to be clear. I am just missing the blaming on Marshall. Is there information that is common knowledge that I am missing? Would Woodson keep someone on staff that wasn't doing a good job? I just don't understand where any of this is coming from... and if it's all just speculation, well... I find that "not smart." 

So we're not allowed to question Clif or the conditioning but we can question Archie's coaching tactics, assistant coaches roles, recruiting, a freshman's shooting form etc.? Like what's the difference?  Bringing up the team's condition is not blaming Clif per se as much as it's questioning the program itself, of which he is apart of when they were not good. Like any opinion of a sports team (in this case IUBB), most everything is based on observations ie watching the games. I observed a team with lot of back problems. Is that Clif's fault? I have no idea, but neither do you are anyone else looking from the outside. I also observed a team that couldn't finish, hold their own underneath, and definitely wore down in tight games. Is that Clif's fault? Don't know the answer to that either. But saying the reason was they were down 15-2 every game or didn't substitute correctly is no better of an explanation.  A huge part of the issue this season was injuries. Once again, I have zero information if Clif was the cause of the problem, probably not. But to say our questioning of his role in the teams flaws is "not smart" is kinda odd to me. I think he needs to be judge just like everyone else. I am no less qualified to judge a conditioning program than I am a Big Ten basketball program, so I fail to see the difference in question him versus any other aspect of the program. 

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48 minutes ago, OGIUAndy said:

So we're not allowed to question Clif or the conditioning but we can question Archie's coaching tactics, assistant coaches roles, recruiting, a freshman's shooting form etc.? Like what's the difference?  Bringing up the team's condition is not blaming Clif per se as much as it's questioning the program itself, of which he is apart of when they were not good. Like any opinion of a sports team (in this case IUBB), most everything is based on observations ie watching the games. I observed a team with lot of back problems. Is that Clif's fault? I have no idea, but neither do you are anyone else looking from the outside. I also observed a team that couldn't finish, hold their own underneath, and definitely wore down in tight games. Is that Clif's fault? Don't know the answer to that either. But saying the reason was they were down 15-2 every game or didn't substitute correctly is no better of an explanation.  A huge part of the issue this season was injuries. Once again, I have zero information if Clif was the cause of the problem, probably not. But to say our questioning of his role in the teams flaws is "not smart" is kinda odd to me. I think he needs to be judge just like everyone else. I am no less qualified to judge a conditioning program than I am a Big Ten basketball program, so I fail to see the difference in question him versus any other aspect of the program. 

Exactly what I said. Is there evidence the back problems are from lifting? 

We can see the absolute failure on the court for multi reasons.. hence why Archie was fired. 

I've not seen weight lifting issues.. there might be, but where are they? And if they are there.. why was Marshall retained? 

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4 minutes ago, btownqb said:

So you are wrong too lol 

It is an opinion so neither one of us are right or wrong.  Why do you have to be so arrogant on these boards where you think your opinion is the only right one and if people.disagree we are wrong.  Just because you are a wannabe high school coach doesn't make you an expert on everything.

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4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

It is an opinion so neither one of us are right or wrong.  Why do you have to be so arrogant on these boards where you think your opinion is the only right one and if people.disagree we are wrong.  Just because you are a wannabe high school coach doesn't make you an expert on everything.

A wannabe coach? I don't even know what that means. How is someone a "wannabe" if they are one? I don't understand. Please explain. 

https://www.ibsabasketball.com/strength-training-jump-shot/

This isn't an opinion, Scott. There is literally ZERO, ZERO evidence that strength training hurts your jump shot even in the least bit.

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4 minutes ago, btownqb said:

A wannabe coach? I don't even know what that means. How is someone a "wannabe" if they are one? I don't understand. Please explain. 

https://www.ibsabasketball.com/strength-training-jump-shot/

This isn't an opinion, Scott. There is literally ZERO, ZERO evidence that strength training hurts your jump shot even in the least bit.

I have watched enough basketball over the 45 + years and saw plenty of great shooters who did not do a lot of weight training.  Not saying not to do weight training bit I don't need to see these pictures all the time.  With how poor we shot the last 4 years there appears to be a circulation between the two.

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15 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I agree with them because I couldn't care less how muscular a basketball player is.

It's not about being "muscular" Scott...It's about strength...

It doesn't hurt shooting (as a matter of fact, it improves range) and strength is a key element in other facets of the game...defense, rebounding...

When Rob Phinisee came in, they said he was the strongest freshman they ever had...And it showed immediately in his on the ball defense...

 

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9 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

It is an opinion so neither one of us are right or wrong.  Why do you have to be so arrogant on these boards where you think your opinion is the only right one and if people.disagree we are wrong.  Just because you are a wannabe high school coach doesn't make you an expert on everything.

Not everything is an opinion though. Some things are right and wrong. 

I can have the opinion that 2+2=87, but that opinion is wrong. 

Weight training does not negatively impact shooting. Nothing that Clif Marshall did over the last 4 years made IU a bad shooting team. 

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