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Archie's Future


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although i do question coaches' decisions like everyone else, i generally don't question that D1 coaches know Xs and Os.  my opinion on Archie's shortcomings is more about him not being able to get them to play tough mentally and physically.  i think we all expected a hard nosed team that played tough defense and wouldn't get pushed around.  i hate to say it, but more like Purdouche.  personally i don't think it was as much a fault of his Packline defense, but his lack of getting the guys to embrace that Purdue-like or Virginia-like pride in defense.  getting the kids to play hard for you is more important than the Xs and Os that you believe in.  

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2 hours ago, Bustout said:

He’ll definitely coach again and will absolutely be a P5 coach.  His main flaw at IU was recruiting Dayton-type players to IU.  The IU job has a short-leash compared to many other schools.  He’ll be back.  
 

I really think a 180 was pulled on him in the end.  There were reports of him leaving the year-end meetings with Dolson/Admins as being encouraged about having another year.  Then, one or two days later, he’s fired.   
 

He knows basketball. He didn’t get to IU on accident.  The IU experience was a big lesson for him and he’ll adjust going forward … both in recruiting and going to a place with a longer leash.    Recruiting-wise - that first class unfortunately doomed him.   Looked great on paper, but never came to fruition.  Could be lack of developing guys.  Could be bad luck.  Could be a combo.   Also what handcuffs were on him early when maybe he could’ve brought McKinley to IU?  We’ll never know.    
 

He knows b-ball. He’s a good coach.  Didn’t work out here.    He’s not the next Belichick, but other very good coaches don’t succeed at places too.  It happens.  Didn’t work out here, but doesn’t mean he sucks. 

I didn't say he wouldn't be approached again, I said he may not coach again.  Archie will decide what HE wants to do.  I know many people that made career changes in the primes of their lives.  It ain't like basketball is the only thing he may be good at.

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22 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

  getting the kids to play hard for you is more important than the Xs and Os that you believe in.  

Hence the reason I am not sure he will ever coach P5 again.  Notice I said P5.  His style does seem to be more conducive to the Big East style of play, So I could see him landing there if he is successful in his return to the mid-majors.  

There are so many red flags regarding his ability, or lack there-of, to get the kids to buy into what he wanted, it is impossible to ignore.  It does not matter how good of a game planner you are, if the team does not believe in you, then the team is not going to reach it's potential.  If a team does not reach it's potential, or come close to doing so, then you have not been a very successful coach.

We have to differentiate between someone having a strong base of basketball knowledge from someone that is a good coach and leader of young men.  Archie may have the former, but he certainly did not display the latter in his tenure at IU.  Therefore, I have to stop short of calling him a 'good coach' who will get a second chance.  I honestly don't think he will at a P5 school.

 

Edited by 5fouls
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19 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Kind of blows my mind he was able to maintain any sort of arrogance with how much of a disaster his tenure was.  I mean he wasn’t even just bad, he was a laughingstock in the Big Ten.  How many times did we hear players on other teams say they knew exactly what we were going to do going into a game?  Opposing coaches just ran rings around him, and the recruiting sucked on top of that.

Comparing him to Crean is honestly an insult to Crean (and Crean isn’t very good).

How many times did you ever hear him take the blame for anything?

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28 minutes ago, Indykev said:

How many times did you ever hear him take the blame for anything?

There was a good part of his tenure where the narrative was that it was nice to finally have a coach that doesn't throw the players under the bus and actually takes blame. 

I feel like as fans (myself included) "he never took blame" is one of those things we say about former coaches as their tenure gets in the rearview mirror. 

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1 hour ago, Indykev said:

How many times did you ever hear him take the blame for anything?

He’d usually offer the empty “that’s on me” platitude in a post-game press conference, but once he’d really jacked up all the players’ shots by the end of his tenure and the pressure started ratcheting up, he started shifting the blame to them more often.

What’s always gotten me are the people who continue to say he’s a “good coach” with literally nothing to support that except for two A-10 regular season titles (one shared), a fluke Elite 8 run (beating 6 seed OSU, 14 seed Syracuse, and 10 seed Stanford), and the fact that his dad was a good high school coach (lmao).  And the funny thing is, many of those same people will trash Crean as a terrible coach even though he’s objectively better than Miller by basically every measure.  It’s never made any sense to me.

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

There was a good part of his tenure where the narrative was that it was nice to finally have a coach that doesn't throw the players under the bus and actually takes blame. 

I feel like as fans (myself included) "he never took blame" is one of those things we say about former coaches as their tenure gets in the rearview mirror. 

We can argue semantics.  But, it's pretty evident to me that cockiness, or whatever you want to call it, played a part in Archie's downfall.  How many players, former or current, have publicly defended, or even thanked him for his time as their coach? 

I've said it on here before.  Juwan Morgan spent 2 years at IU playing for Crean, and two years at IU playing for Archie.  During his time with Crean, he came off the bench.  For, Archie, he was an all conference player.  In his Senior Day speech he profusely thanked Crean.  He never mentioned Archie.

 

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Just don’t see the need to kick the guy in the azz after he’s already out the door.

CAM gave 4 years of his life to try to bring IU back. Didn’t work out. I don’t believe he owes any of us anything. He’s a different guy from Crean and doesn’t wear his emotions on his sleeve. Doesn’t satisfy the need of many to have closure on his tenure here, but I don’t think he cares about that.

Let the guy go. He’s gone. Dolsen has his hire in place now. The university has moved on. Time for the fans to do the same 

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12 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Just don’t see the need to kick the guy in the azz after he’s already out the door.

CAM gave 4 years of his life to try to bring IU back. Didn’t work out. I don’t believe he owes any of us anything. He’s a different guy from Crean and doesn’t wear his emotions on his sleeve. Doesn’t satisfy the need of many to have closure on his tenure here, but I don’t think he cares about that.

Let the guy go. He’s gone. Dolsen has his hire in place now. The university has moved on. Time for the fans to do the same 

Personally, I have found the discussion in this thread quite enjoyable.  But understand exactly what you are saying.

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10 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Just don’t see the need to kick the guy in the azz after he’s already out the door.

CAM gave 4 years of his life to try to bring IU back. Didn’t work out. I don’t believe he owes any of us anything. He’s a different guy from Crean and doesn’t wear his emotions on his sleeve. Doesn’t satisfy the need of many to have closure on his tenure here, but I don’t think he cares about that.

Let the guy go. He’s gone. Dolsen has his hire in place now. The university has moved on. Time for the fans to do the same 

The purpose of the thread isn't to 'kick him in the backside'.  it's to discuss what we see in his future.  It's only natural that some will see a brighter future than others.  Both positive and negative things will be mentioned.

I kind of take the opposite view.  i think it is better to support a coach as much as you can when he is still the coach of your team.  Find ways to be positive even in the darkest of times.  Put lipstick on the pig, if you will.  Being negative about a coach while he is still employed is not good for a program.  After he's gone?  If the discussion trends that way, as long as it is not over the top and personal in nature, it's fair game as far as I'm concerned.

 

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32 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

The purpose of the thread isn't to 'kick him in the backside'.  it's to discuss what we see in his future.  It's only natural that some will see a brighter future than others.  Both positive and negative things will be mentioned.

I kind of take the opposite view.  i think it is better to support a coach as much as you can when he is still the coach of your team.  Find ways to be positive even in the darkest of times.  Put lipstick on the pig, if you will.  Being negative about a coach while he is still employed is not good for a program.  After he's gone?  If the discussion trends that way, as long as it is not over the top and personal in nature, it's fair game as far as I'm concerned.

 

Get what you’re saying Fouls. I am the same way, and along with a couple of others, was one of the last staunch supporters of Archie. 

Fair game is fine… as long as it’s fair. Lots of over the top criticism of Archie imo, and just feel like this thread has kinda fed the beast in providing another opportunity to keep piling on. 

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13 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Get what you’re saying Fouls. I am the same way, and along with a couple of others, was one of the last staunch supporters of Archie. 

Fair game is fine… as long as it’s fair. Lots of over the top criticism of Archie imo, and just feel like this thread has kinda fed the beast in providing another opportunity to keep piling on. 

Yeah, I think criticism is fine and he deserves some, but I think IU fans are better than some of these comments. 

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1 hour ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Just don’t see the need to kick the guy in the azz after he’s already out the door.

CAM gave 4 years of his life to try to bring IU back. Didn’t work out. I don’t believe he owes any of us anything. He’s a different guy from Crean and doesn’t wear his emotions on his sleeve. Doesn’t satisfy the need of many to have closure on his tenure here, but I don’t think he cares about that.

Let the guy go. He’s gone. Dolsen has his hire in place now. The university has moved on. Time for the fans to do the same 

He did spend 4 years as the coach of IU, yes, but he didn't "give" those years to IU. They paid him $3.5M for each of them plus the $10M to go away because he was revealed to be a bad coach. I don't feel sorry for him.

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21 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

He did spend 4 years as the coach of IU, yes, but he didn't "give" those years to IU. They paid him $3.5M for each of them plus the $10M to go away because he was revealed to be a bad coach. I don't feel sorry for him.

I don’t feel sorry for him either and know that he was compensated at market value.

Not the issue. Be the better fanbase. Let the guy go with some sense of dignity. Just because he didn’t meet the expectations of the collective, doesn’t mean he should be thrown under the bus

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12 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I don’t feel sorry for him either and know that he was compensated at market value.

Not the issue. Be the better fanbase. Let the guy go with some sense of dignity. Just because he didn’t meet the expectations of the collective, doesn’t mean he should be thrown under the bus

Being subjected to Archie ball for four years was far worse than being thrown under a bus, lol.

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Archie ended up being an enigma to me.  The attitude he had and what he would say simply didn’t materialize.  I liked what he’d say but not what occurred on the floor.  I have my theories in that regard.  More concerning was that he lacked a spark in terms of strategy.  

I hope he doesn’t pull a Crean and really does self-scouting and self-examination to improve.  One of Crean’s biggest problems is he thinks he has the answers when he has incredibly flawed style of ball that wasn’t my cup of tea.  He is what he is.  On the other hand, Archie can turn it around in time.  

Ironically, Crean’s era will have been more memorable.  Archie’s era will be a forgotten footnote.  I wish him well.  I think his best move is to self-reflect and rebuild his resume at a mid-major built and hungry for success.  Expand on his coaching and return to a good job in a big conference as a new and improved version of himself.  

Edited by BobSaccamanno
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6 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

And you just proved my point.

Just can’t show some class and move on.

We are coming dangerously close to becoming the pUKe fan base 

Like others have said, maybe we’d be more inclined to “show some class” if he’d shown any after we kicked him to the curb.  As it is, I have no qualms getting some parting shots in.

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10 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Like others have said, maybe we’d be more inclined to “show some class” if he’d shown any after we kicked him to the curb.  As it is, I have no qualms getting some parting shots in.

Sorry you feel that way. 
 

Life goes on.

HCMW is in charge now. We will become a better program in spite of ourselves 

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2 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Sorry you feel that way. 
 

Life goes on.

HCMW is in charge now. We will become a better program in spite of ourselves 

Wholeheartedly agree with all of that, except the implication that fans taking shots at the outgoing coach on internet message boards has literally anything to do with the health of the program.

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27 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Archie ended up being an enigma to me.  The attitude he had and what he would say simply didn’t materialize.  I liked what he’d say but not what occurred on the floor.  I have my theories in that regard.  More concerning was that he lacked a spark in terms of strategy.  

I hope he doesn’t pull a Crean and really does self-scouting and self-examination to improve.  One of Crean’s biggest problems is he thinks he has the answers when he has incredibly flawed style of ball that wasn’t my cup of tea.  He is what he is.  On the other hand, Archie can turn it around in time.  

Ironically, Crean’s era will have been more memorable.  Archie’s era will be a forgotten footnote.  I wish him well.  I think his best move is to self-reflect and rebuild his resume at a mid-major built and hungry for success.  Expand on his coaching and return to a good job in a big conference as a new and improved version of himself.  

Understand… but frankly neither you, nor I know what CAM was up against when he tried to build his roster. 
 

It’s easy, no lazy, to simply infer that CAM was over his head in taking the IU job . Regardless of the consensus, he had to overcome injuries as well as a global pandemic. How many other “new “ coaches had to navigate the last 2 years in the fishbowl that is IU basketball? Name me one coach who was trying to rebuild a program at a basketball school under the circumstances CAM dealt with the last two years.

Don’t get me wrong. I am ecstatic with where we are going under HCMW. Just don’t understand the need to lower ourselves to the depths of the UK’s of the world just because we can 

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11 minutes ago, OLDIUFAN said:

When you see players mouth off in the huddle during time outs . Players acting disinterested in huddles. Teams coming out of huddles an not playing hard you know the coach lost the team! 
To be honest none of Archie teams seem to respond to him. 

A direct reflection of a lack of accountability and playing time not being tied to performance. Archie thought he was the smartest guy in the room.  Being smart don’t mean crap if you can’t get people to share in your vision 

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4 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I don’t feel sorry for him either and know that he was compensated at market value.

Not the issue. Be the better fanbase. Let the guy go with some sense of dignity. Just because he didn’t meet the expectations of the collective, doesn’t mean he should be thrown under the bus

My issue is with your comment which made it sound like it was an altruistic choice on his part to coach for IU and therefore he shouldn't be criticized. It wasn't an unselfish, charitable decision on his part to take the job. He was paid and paid well to take the job then proceeded to do a terrible job. Criticism comes with the territory and most of the criticism here is fair doesn't even seem very extreme.

Besides, it's not as though he'll read these forums and have his feelings hurt. If he does, he can confirm himself with the $20M+ he got from IU for 4 years of poor results.

Just because you liked him doesn't mean he's above criticism. If he didn't want criticism here should've done a better job.

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