Jump to content

Trouble in Madison....


Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

20 years ago, it took a leaked video of the coach choking out a player to take him down.  Now all it’s going to take is leaked audio of seniors sobbing during a group therapy session.  Would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sad.

Jason Kidd and others ran Lou Campanelli out of Cal in '93.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, rico said:

Jason Kidd and others ran Lou Campanelli out of Cal in '93.

1980s
 
AAU basketball gained popularity in the 1980s when Sonny Vaccaro and Phil Knight came together with the goal of spreading the youth basketball movement. By signing AAU coaches and college coaches to shoe contracts, they ensured specific AAU programs and major basketball programs would be wearing their shoes.

image.png

 

It was a two edged sword....it vastly improved the skill of the college athlete but it also was the beginning of a TON of issues as well. I'm not saying it is completely bad thing...and there has been player/coach issues since sports began...but I think a lot points back to this. Don't get me wrong, I am all for individuals rights but when the single player becomes more important then the team...well there is going to be problems. And in AAU basketball it is all about the individual...promoting oneself...and those ideals run head on against what a really good college coach is going to teach and preach for a successful TEAM. Most kids get it...and come around to it...and you see others that don't. I think you see the result of some selfish individuals there in Madison. It's why the LEO message with the football team resinates so strongly....brings unity, pride in team, and success on the field and in their lives. What you see in Madison....is certainly not LEO.

Edited by dgambill
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I’ll try to respond to this without getting too much onto the edge of what the mods think is political.

We are in the era of hypersensitivity to anything that doesn’t make people feel warm and fuzzy. The generation of kids in question is heart and soul in the middle of many of the “movements “ our society finds itself trying to navigate through. The so-called “adversity “ these guys think they are dealing with is laughable as compared to the conditions faced by some of the previous generations. We live in a time where too many young people have been coddled and pandered to. The sense of entitlement here is fair evidence of this.

God forbid that these guys take personal responsibility for their futures and stop whining that they aren’t being supported. 
 

I lived in the Madison area long enough to know that there is absolutely a part of the population who is in the corner of the players and staunchly backs the “participation ribbon “ mentality. In a progressive city like this, these players have a platform that wouldn’t play as well in some other places.

Steuben - I would just like to celebrate that we agree on something!  Miracles do happen!

  • Like 1
  • Haha 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

https://madison.com/wsj/sports/college/basketball/men/wisconsin-men-s-basketball-seniors-confronted-greg-gard-in-secretly-recorded-meeting-here-s-what/article_bf1afb44-c2fe-5983-86fb-4c107e776e15.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_

 

I debated if this actually deserved it's own thread or if it should go in the catch all thread we have, but it seems as if there is some turmoil in Wisconsin. Not sure if there is any long term fallout or not, but it seems like they have culture issues. I'm also a bit torn on the fact that someone leaked that recording...

651241018ea1a3e093bf5d55077e367b.png

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I’ll try to respond to this without getting too much onto the edge of what the mods think is political.

We are in the era of hypersensitivity to anything that doesn’t make people feel warm and fuzzy. The generation of kids in question is heart and soul in the middle of many of the “movements “ our society finds itself trying to navigate through. The so-called “adversity “ these guys think they are dealing with is laughable as compared to the conditions faced by some of the previous generations. We live in a time where too many young people have been coddled and pandered to. The sense of entitlement here is fair evidence of this.

God forbid that these guys take personal responsibility for their futures and stop whining that they aren’t being supported. 
 

I lived in the Madison area long enough to know that there is absolutely a part of the population who is in the corner of the players and staunchly backs the “participation ribbon “ mentality. In a progressive city like this, these players have a platform that wouldn’t play as well in some other places.

Sign me up for your newsletter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, dgambill said:
1980s
 
AAU basketball gained popularity in the 1980s when Sonny Vaccaro and Phil Knight came together with the goal of spreading the youth basketball movement. By signing AAU coaches and college coaches to shoe contracts, they ensured specific AAU programs and major basketball programs would be wearing their shoes.

image.png

 

It was a two edged sword....it vastly improved the skill of the college athlete but it also was the beginning of a TON of issues as well. I'm not saying it is completely bad thing...and there has been player/coach issues since sports began...but I think a lot points back to this. Don't get me wrong, I am all for individuals rights but when the single player becomes more important then the team...well there is going to be problems. And in AAU basketball it is all about the individual...promoting oneself...and those ideals run head on against what a really good college coach is going to teach and preach for a successful TEAM. Most kids get it...and come around to it...and you see others that don't. I think you see the result of some selfish individuals there in Madison. It's why the LEO message with the football team resinates so strongly....brings unity, pride in team, and success on the field and in their lives. What you see in Madison....is certainly not LEO.

Good 30 for 30 on Knight and Vaccaro.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I wonder if the leaker thought this would benefit the players in terms of perception and/or hurt Gard. Nothing could be further from the truth. The players look like total weanies.  And shame on the leaker(s).

Gard had a reputation as a good coach going back to when he was a rising assistant.  

Sometimes we get swayed to rash assessments based purely on what we see or read via the media.  What is the truth to this story?  I really dunno.  And TBH I really don't care.  Great for discussion but it doesn't affect me one bit.  But I will point out that Gard received the job from Ryan.  And Bo's armor has some chinks in it.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I’ll try to respond to this without getting too much onto the edge of what the mods think is political.

We are in the era of hypersensitivity to anything that doesn’t make people feel warm and fuzzy. The generation of kids in question is heart and soul in the middle of many of the “movements “ our society finds itself trying to navigate through. The so-called “adversity “ these guys think they are dealing with is laughable as compared to the conditions faced by some of the previous generations. We live in a time where too many young people have been coddled and pandered to. The sense of entitlement here is fair evidence of this.

God forbid that these guys take personal responsibility for their futures and stop whining that they aren’t being supported. 
 

I lived in the Madison area long enough to know that there is absolutely a part of the population who is in the corner of the players and staunchly backs the “participation ribbon “ mentality. In a progressive city like this, these players have a platform that wouldn’t play as well in some other places.

I feel like such a curmudgeon liking this but it's true.  I can't say my generation (I was a toddler and primary school kid during Vietnam) really had it hard either, but at least we were taught enough history to realize the magnitude of the sacrifices made for our freedom and prosperity.  Worse thing I can remember is struggling financially during the late '70's and early '80's, but that was more of a problem for my parents than it was for me.  They always made sure I had what I needed, if not what I wanted.

The way China is going, young people today may get a real dose of real life-threatening and prosperity-threatening adversity at some point in their adult life.  I don't wish that on any generation but yeah...my daughter's generation has no clue what real adversity is.  It's certainly not hearing a few words you don't like and being jealous of someone else's success.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, MoyeCowbell said:

I'm going to be the one who pivots and (somewhat) disagrees with your post (hey, that's what this message board is for, right!?)

Man, I have so much to unpack here. (And none of this is meant to be personal... just a reaction to the post above.)

First off, what is the love affair with comparing different generations and their equivalent suffering? Isn't it a little silly to think that the generations following our own "should" experience terrible adversity and adverse situations simply because we did? And isn't it a bit short-sighted to think that they aren't? Life is beautiful and it sucks. This is as true now as it was back then, and then, and then, and the 'then' before then. Sure, kids have the internet and iPads now. So? They're still experiencing hardships and challenges that we didn't when we were kids. Things shift, evolve, and hopefully progress as we move forward.

The hypersensitivity can equally be placed on the older generations, who might feel like their trials and tribulations aren't being recognized enough.

The "participation ribbon/coddled to" comments are always laughable to me. Who is doing that? The kids? Are the 5 year olds getting together, creating a youth soccer/basketball/football league, writing up the bylaws, creating a schedule, organizing the whole thing with games and instruction, simply so they can play to a tie and hand out ribbons (that they saved up money from their piggy banks to get)?? Who is doing the coddling?

What I gleaned from the Gard/Wisconsin situation wasn't the seniors being babies. It was a lack of communication and trust. These things run both ways. Of course the players should be held accountable to their actions. They should be able to withstand adversity and "take it on the chin" every so often. But so should the coaches and instructors that lead them. A good locker room is built on a foundation of 'us' and not 'you'. It looks like that foundation was cracking up there.

Simply look at what Coach Allen* is doing here at IU. Many/Most(?...but not all, to be fair) of his players would run through a brick wall for him. He has earned their trust because he has been open and honest with them. People want to play for him because he says what he means and means what he says. At the end of the day, it's not just about coach/player; it's a human-human connection and relationship. [*Coach Woodson as well, although obviously early in his IU career.]

Do I think Coach Gard should be run out of Madison because of this conversation? Of course not. He rubbed the players the wrong way. So be it. Hopefully it's a learning experience for everyone involved.

Now do I think Coach Gard should be run out of Madison because IU consistently whips his team's ass like it's the 1980s? Hell yes.

If there's one thing that's consistent through out history it's probably an older generation thinking the subsequent generations are lazy, spoiled, entitled, sensitive, etc. 

Edited by tdhoosier
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, rico said:

Sometimes we get swayed to rash assessments based purely on what we see or read via the media.  What is the truth to this story?  I really dunno.  And TBH I really don't care.  Great for discussion but it doesn't affect me one bit.  But I will point out that Gard received the job from Ryan.  And Bo's armor has some chinks in it.  

You may be right, my friend.  I like your sentiment.  But there was some troubling stuff in there.  For example, I probably wouldn’t hire any of them.  They were talking about not talking to the coach at all, etc.  Not a great look.  I wouldn’t want that attitude in my place of employment and I bet a lot of people agree with me.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

You may be right, my friend.  I like your sentiment.  But there was some troubling stuff in there.  For example, I probably wouldn’t hire any of them.  They were talking about not talking to the coach at all, etc.  Not a great look.  I wouldn’t want that attitude in my place of employment and I bet a lot of people agree with me.  

Oh yeah that situation up there reeks.  I wouldn't want any part of it either.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, MoyeCowbell said:

I'm going to be the one who pivots and (somewhat) disagrees with your post (hey, that's what this message board is for, right!?)

Man, I have so much to unpack here. (And none of this is meant to be personal... just a reaction to the post above.)

First off, what is the love affair with comparing different generations and their equivalent suffering? Isn't it a little silly to think that the generations following our own "should" experience terrible adversity and adverse situations simply because we did? And isn't it a bit short-sighted to think that they aren't? Life is beautiful and it sucks. This is as true now as it was back then, and then, and then, and the 'then' before then. Sure, kids have the internet and iPads now. So? They're still experiencing hardships and challenges that we didn't when we were kids. Things shift, evolve, and hopefully progress as we move forward.

The hypersensitivity can equally be placed on the older generations, who might feel like their trials and tribulations aren't being recognized enough.

The "participation ribbon/coddled to" comments are always laughable to me. Who is doing that? The kids? Are the 5 year olds getting together, creating a youth soccer/basketball/football league, writing up the bylaws, creating a schedule, organizing the whole thing with games and instruction, simply so they can play to a tie and hand out ribbons (that they saved up money from their piggy banks to get)?? Who is doing the coddling?

What I gleaned from the Gard/Wisconsin situation wasn't the seniors being babies. It was a lack of communication and trust. These things run both ways. Of course the players should be held accountable to their actions. They should be able to withstand adversity and "take it on the chin" every so often. But so should the coaches and instructors that lead them. A good locker room is built on a foundation of 'us' and not 'you'. It looks like that foundation was cracking up there.

Simply look at what Coach Allen* is doing here at IU. Many/Most(?...but not all, to be fair) of his players would run through a brick wall for him. He has earned their trust because he has been open and honest with them. People want to play for him because he says what he means and means what he says. At the end of the day, it's not just about coach/player; it's a human-human connection and relationship. [*Coach Woodson as well, although obviously early in his IU career.]

Do I think Coach Gard should be run out of Madison because of this conversation? Of course not. He rubbed the players the wrong way. So be it. Hopefully it's a learning experience for everyone involved.

Now do I think Coach Gard should be run out of Madison because IU consistently whips his team's ass like it's the 1980s? Hell yes.

...and you did a great job taking the counterpoint.  Here area a couple of my reactions...

Yes, my generation absolutely bears some responsibility for how my daughter's generation reacts.  For whatever reason, it appears there was a lot of bad parenting in my generation that made participation ribbons a thing.

No, I really hope my daughter's generation doesn't experience real adversity even though character is built through adversity.  It's kind of hard to argue that as a country, we haven't gotten a lot softer because we haven't really been challenged for a long time.  If people think last year's pandemic is real adversity, I sincerely hope they never face anything worse.

No question, Greg Gard could take a page from coach Allen, although very few coaches have that balance of being tough and being loved at the same time.  It's a rare skill and IU is very lucky to have Allen for that reason alone.  On the other hand, the players own words made them sound like whiny babies.  After four years in what appears to be a pretty hard-nosed program, that surprises me.

Edited by FKIM01
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, MoyeCowbell said:

I'm going to be the one who pivots and (somewhat) disagrees with your post (hey, that's what this message board is for, right!?)

Man, I have so much to unpack here. (And none of this is meant to be personal... just a reaction to the post above.)

First off, what is the love affair with comparing different generations and their equivalent suffering? Isn't it a little silly to think that the generations following our own "should" experience terrible adversity and adverse situations simply because we did? And isn't it a bit short-sighted to think that they aren't? Life is beautiful and it sucks. This is as true now as it was back then, and then, and then, and the 'then' before then. Sure, kids have the internet and iPads now. So? They're still experiencing hardships and challenges that we didn't when we were kids. Things shift, evolve, and hopefully progress as we move forward.

The hypersensitivity can equally be placed on the older generations, who might feel like their trials and tribulations aren't being recognized enough.

The "participation ribbon/coddled to" comments are always laughable to me. Who is doing that? The kids? Are the 5 year olds getting together, creating a youth soccer/basketball/football league, writing up the bylaws, creating a schedule, organizing the whole thing with games and instruction, simply so they can play to a tie and hand out ribbons (that they saved up money from their piggy banks to get)?? Who is doing the coddling?

What I gleaned from the Gard/Wisconsin situation wasn't the seniors being babies. It was a lack of communication and trust. These things run both ways. Of course the players should be held accountable to their actions. They should be able to withstand adversity and "take it on the chin" every so often. But so should the coaches and instructors that lead them. A good locker room is built on a foundation of 'us' and not 'you'. It looks like that foundation was cracking up there.

Simply look at what Coach Allen* is doing here at IU. Many/Most(?...but not all, to be fair) of his players would run through a brick wall for him. He has earned their trust because he has been open and honest with them. People want to play for him because he says what he means and means what he says. At the end of the day, it's not just about coach/player; it's a human-human connection and relationship. [*Coach Woodson as well, although obviously early in his IU career.]

Do I think Coach Gard should be run out of Madison because of this conversation? Of course not. He rubbed the players the wrong way. So be it. Hopefully it's a learning experience for everyone involved.

Now do I think Coach Gard should be run out of Madison because IU consistently whips his team's ass like it's the 1980s? Hell yes.

Gave a lot of thought before replying to this…

My uncle stormed the beaches on D-Day but didn’t return home. He was 19 when he sacrificed his life for his country.

My brother was ready to leave the country, his family, his friends, his fiancé, rather than being drafted to go to Viet Nam. Fortunately for him, he had 20/400 vision and flat feet and did not have to go to Canada to evade the draft.

My best friends brother died in that war at the ripe old age of 20. He came home in a box. I helped put him in the ground and then got completely drunk on scotch as we toasted him for his sacrifice.

 I feel for kids today but their circumstances aren’t anything like what these young men went through.

I appreciate your sentiments but find it laughable to compare what these generations faced v what today’s “hardships “ might be.

Edited by Steubenhoosier
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Gave a lot of thought before replying to this…

My uncle stormed the beaches on D-Day but didn’t return home. He was 19 when he sacrificed his life for his country.

My brother was ready to leave the country, his family, his friends, his fiancé, rather than being drafted to go to Viet Nam. Fortunately for him, he had 20/400 vision and flat feet and did not have to go to Canada to evade the draft.

My best friends brother died in that war at the ripe old age of 20. He came home in a box. I helped put him in the ground and then got completely drunk on scotch as we toasted him for his sacrifice.

 I feel for kids today but their circumstances aren’t anything like what these young men went through.

I appreciate your sentiments but find it laughable to compare what these generations faced v what today’s “hardships “ might be.

That’s all terrible and I’m so sorry to hear of all of that. 
 

But do we have to gaslight what today’s youth has gone through? It’s definitely different, but there are aspects for kids today that are harder than what generations before them growing up had to deal with. I’m going to hold off on giving examples because I don’t want this to turn political…
 

I’m not even sure how a discussion of which generation has dealt with more is even relevant to the topic at hand. 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

That’s all terrible and I’m so sorry to hear of all of that. 
 

But do we have to gaslight what today’s youth has gone through? It’s definitely different, but there are aspects for kids today that are harder than what generations before them growing up had to deal with. I’m going to hold off on giving examples because I don’t want this to turn political…
 

I’m not even sure how a discussion of which generation has dealt with more is even relevant to the topic at hand. 

For your sake, I hope you're just being sarcastic. 

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Muckraker said:

For your sake, I hope you're just being sarcastic. 

Nope. I’m not a Boomer nor am I Gen Z, but I can look at it objectively and say both generations have had plenty of challenges to overcome. I don’t think getting into a pissing match of who had it worse does any good. For sake of argument let’s say it was harder for Baby Boomers than it has been for Gen Z - so what? Does that mean Gen Z can’t have feelings about the hardships they have had to overcome?

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a lot simpler than all this generational angst.

Every coach in every program sells kids on becoming part of the "family" an having a "family atmosphere." These kids are basically saying the coach doesn't care about them off the basketball court. They were lied to and they're upset about it. More than that, it sounds like the WANT to have that family atmosphere but get nothing from Gard to support it.

Simple enough without dragging "micro aggressions" or "kids these days" or whatever else into the conversation.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It's a lot simpler than all this generational angst.

Every coach in every program sells kids on becoming part of the "family" an having a "family atmosphere." These kids are basically saying the coach doesn't care about them off the basketball court. They were lied to and they're upset about it. More than that, it sounds like the WANT to have that family atmosphere but get nothing from Gard to support it.

Simple enough without dragging "micro aggressions" or "kids these days" or whatever else into the conversation.

Agree. Kids want a program where they can come back and visit and feel appreciated. They want a coach that they can rely on to be a mentor/advisor/friend for the rest of their lives. That is partly why I think Woodson has a chance to be really successful at IU, because he's already been vocal about turning IU back into a place that pay dividends to their athletes even after they've left. A true family atmosphere and always caring about the players even when they're gone. 

The worst thing is to sell that and then not deliver upon it, and it sounds like that is what Gard was doing. Doesn't mean the players aren't being overly sensitive and aren't partly in the wrong here. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree. Kids want a program where they can come back and visit and feel appreciated. They want a coach that they can rely on to be a mentor/advisor/friend for the rest of their lives. That is partly why I think Woodson has a chance to be really successful at IU, because he's already been vocal about turning IU back into a place that pay dividends to their athletes even after they've left. A true family atmosphere and always caring about the players even when they're gone. 

The worst thing is to sell that and then not deliver upon it, and it sounds like that is what Gard was doing. Doesn't mean the players aren't being overly sensitive and aren't partly in the wrong here. 

100%. Leaking it is really bad for whoever did that, IMO. 

But think about what these kids (or I guess middle aged men since it's Wisconsin seniors) were going through when this happened. We can say how easy these kids have had it, but I didn't deal with Covid and not being able to see my friends and family for however many months it had been at that point when I was 21 or 22 years old. That's really tough, especially at that point in life. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...