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A long meandering debate about Luke Brown (not the next Damon Bailey) and various other off-topic discussions

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4 minutes ago, Sark said:

I think the lack of athleticism and the corresponding reduction in productivity in a bigger school environment playing against better competition would’ve likely demonstrated that he wasn’t ready for the upper level. Regardless, good luck to him.

That could have happened you’re correct ....I almost wish he would have moved schools now so we’d know the answer as sacrilegious as that is for me to say.  I hope you don’t think I was being short or rude to you I respect your opinion and don’t mind you disagreeing with me.  I’ve gotten a chance to watch a lot of kids  from indiana high schools That have gone on to successful college careers and there isn’t much margin between him and when I used to watch hulls at that age ....he may have taken a huge step back at a big school but I think he would have put up 20 and 5-10 assists as an upperclassmen ....rebounding and defense I wouldn’t argue would be stellar numbers although he would stuff the sheet with steals 

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14 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Okay. Let’s see. Brown can only be compared to short, small school, Indiana public high school kids, per your parameters 

My original point, and what I am sticking to, is that if Brown was good enough, he would have attracted higher level offers. He must not be, as they haven’t materialized 

Your original point was that playing at a small school doesn’t matter because Caleb furst plays at a small school and he’s attracted attention.   
 

my point is you can’t find a kid under 6’6 from a one or two a school to get offers or major attention in the last 20 years ....we have all three come up with many examples before that but none in the last two decades so either the talent has disappeared or they are simply not taking risks on those players anymore ....I think its a pretty obvious correlation if you look at the numbers.  If you look at private 1 or 2 a schools you’ll find several over the last 20 years public you’ll find none ( unless we are missing some ) so I just don’t think your original comparison was apples to apples 

 

but you ARE correct with your second point ...they hadn’t materialized yet I’ll certainly give you that 

Edited by IU/Butler/Notre Dame

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10 minutes ago, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said:

Your original point was that playing at a small school doesn’t matter because Caleb furst plays at a small school and he’s attracted attention.   
 

my point is you can’t find a kid under 6’6 from a one or two a school to get offers or major attention in the last 20 years ....we have all three come up with many examples before that but none in the last two decades so either the talent has disappeared or they are simply not taking risks on those players anymore ....I think its a pretty obvious correlation if you look at the numbers.  If you look at private 1 or 2 a schools you’ll find several over the last 20 years public you’ll find none ( unless we are missing some ) so I just don’t think your original comparison was apples to apples 

 

but you ARE correct with your second point ...they hadn’t materialized yet I’ll certainly give you that 

Again, since you have put such stringent guidelines to support your stance, in theory you are correct. Unfortunately for the kid, major college programs don't just limit themselves like you are limiting the discussion. If Brown was something special, he would have stood out and drawn the attention of major college coaches.

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20 minutes ago, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said:

That could have happened you’re correct ....I almost wish he would have moved schools now so we’d know the answer as sacrilegious as that is for me to say.  I hope you don’t think I was being short or rude to you I respect your opinion and don’t mind you disagreeing with me.  I’ve gotten a chance to watch a lot of kids  from indiana high schools That have gone on to successful college careers and there isn’t much margin between him and when I used to watch hulls at that age ....he may have taken a huge step back at a big school but I think he would have put up 20 and 5-10 assists as an upperclassmen ....rebounding and defense I wouldn’t argue would be stellar numbers although he would stuff the sheet with steals 

You’ve seen a bunch of him so I trust your views. Coaches miss as much as they hit, if not more, so who knows how this works out. IU has had it happen to them recently and it shows how some coaches miss on their evaluations. Hope he does great and proves all the doubters wrong.

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3 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Again, since you have put such stringent guidelines to support your stance, in theory you are correct. Unfortunately for the kid, major college programs don't just limit themselves like you are limiting the discussion. If Brown was something special, he would have stood out and drawn the attention of major college coaches.

it’s not stringent ...find a guard from a 1 or 2 a non private school that got the offers in the last 20 years ....that’s one position at Two of our four classes of basketball And a non private status ....that is somewhere between 25 and 40% of the high schools in this state...you not being able to find one doesn’t make it stringent my friend 

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2 minutes ago, Sark said:

You’ve seen a bunch of him so I trust your views. Coaches miss as much as they hit, if not more, so who knows how this works out. IU has had it happen to them recently and it shows how some coaches miss on their evaluations. Hope he does great and proves all the doubters wrong.

Same here ! And maybe he will get a few games in against the big schools and show I was way off base in which case I’ll apologize to everyone lol.  I’m looking forward to seeing one way or another.  Are you in Indiana ? If not what are your high schools doing as far as fall sports ?

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1 hour ago, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said:

Same here ! And maybe he will get a few games in against the big schools and show I was way off base in which case I’ll apologize to everyone lol.  I’m looking forward to seeing one way or another.  Are you in Indiana ? If not what are your high schools doing as far as fall sports ?

This is why I think Luke belongs at a smaller school. It's one thing to have a few games against the big schools, it's another to face a meat grinder like a Big 10 schedule night in and night out. His situation kind of reminds me of Cooper Neese, who scored a ton at a small school (Cloverdale), accepted his one major offer from Butler and then transferred to Indiana State before his freshman season. Seems pretty clear Neese is where he should be.

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

This is why I think Luke belongs at a smaller school. It's one thing to have a few games against the big schools, it's another to face a meat grinder like a Big 10 schedule night in and night out. His situation kind of reminds me of Cooper Neese, who scored a ton at a small school (Cloverdale), accepted his one major offer from Butler and then transferred to Indiana State before his freshman season. Seems pretty clear Neese is where he should be.

Fair enough 

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Look you know I’ve been supportive of Luke...very supportive as I think he could help as a specialist for a larger school...come in be an extra ball handler knock down free throws...maybe be a 3 pt specialist...but I do think he couldn’t handle guarding the athletes he would face say at IU on a nightly basis for 30 mins a game. You would have to hide him On the worst player and shade your defense. Now that might work for some teams and coaches but I think in general most want a player that has much higher potential then just a specialist.
 

I do believe Luke if he had a full summer and he performed well he would have got a few better offers (higher mid major) but I don’t think the power 6 offer was going to materialize. They just don’t take these type of kids anymore...at least not as scholarship kids or until they’re are senior transfers. That may happen for him someday if he goes down that route but no matter how much you protest I think we all have to agree...he made the best choice he felt for himself...and he had all the info...a better offer wasnt coming and out of the ones he had this one was the most attractive for him. The more you try to make a case the more it comes off biased. It isn’t just Luke’s size but his lack of elite quickness laterally and vertically. He just isn’t that athletic (in terms of high college level). That plus being 6’1ish is just not going to cut it for high major kids. NCAA coaches will scout high and low....all over...even if you are a 1A school a kid will not be missed in this internet/AAU age. He got plenty of looks...and left empty handed...this isn’t 30-40 years ago when a kid might come out of nowhere or go unseen....kids have more opportunities to be visable and display their game now more than ever...but the level of size, skill, and or athleticism it takes to play at the highest level is higher than ever before though.

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3 hours ago, dgambill said:

Look you know I’ve been supportive of Luke...very supportive as I think he could help as a specialist for a larger school...come in be an extra ball handler knock down free throws...maybe be a 3 pt specialist...but I do think he couldn’t handle guarding the athletes he would face say at IU on a nightly basis for 30 mins a game. You would have to hide him On the worst player and shade your defense. Now that might work for some teams and coaches but I think in general most want a player that has much higher potential then just a specialist.
 

I do believe Luke if he had a full summer and he performed well he would have got a few better offers (higher mid major) but I don’t think the power 6 offer was going to materialize. They just don’t take these type of kids anymore...at least not as scholarship kids or until they’re are senior transfers. That may happen for him someday if he goes down that route but no matter how much you protest I think we all have to agree...he made the best choice he felt for himself...and he had all the info...a better offer wasnt coming and out of the ones he had this one was the most attractive for him. The more you try to make a case the more it comes off biased. It isn’t just Luke’s size but his lack of elite quickness laterally and vertically. He just isn’t that athletic (in terms of high college level). That plus being 6’1ish is just not going to cut it for high major kids. NCAA coaches will scout high and low....all over...even if you are a 1A school a kid will not be missed in this internet/AAU age. He got plenty of looks...and left empty handed...this isn’t 30-40 years ago when a kid might come out of nowhere or go unseen....kids have more opportunities to be visable and display their game now more than ever...but the level of size, skill, and or athleticism it takes to play at the highest level is higher than ever before though.

And you know I agree with 90% of what you just said including what his role would be at a major program and the fact he would have been defensive liability ( same arguments I made with hulls exhaustively ) ....the part I disagree with was it not coming ....he would have ended up with an offer from either northwestern Clemson or Purdue depending which was still filling spots come December or January 

 

 

and to add to that ...had they offered ...I’m not sure it would have changed the decision because, as you mentioned , he would have been physically able to attempt to guard 1 or 2 position in the big ten until his junior or senior year of college 

you also know I realize I’m bias but it doesn’t change the fact I’ve seen other high level guards regularly Kramer and Jordy probably being the most recent ....I’m still waiting on someone to find me a 1 or 2a guard that has gone power six in the last 15 to 20 years ( not as a challenge because I’m truly curious )

 

Edited by IU/Butler/Notre Dame

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2 hours ago, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said:

And you know I agree with 90% of what you just said including what his role would be at a major program and the fact he would have been defensive liability ( same arguments I made with hulls exhaustively ) ....the part I disagree with was it not coming ....he would have ended up with an offer from either northwestern Clemson or Purdue depending which was still filling spots come December or January 

 

 

and to add to that ...had they offered ...I’m not sure it would have changed the decision because, as you mentioned , he would have been physically able to attempt to guard 1 or 2 position in the big ten until his junior or senior year of college 

you also know I realize I’m bias but it doesn’t change the fact I’ve seen other high level guards regularly Kramer and Jordy probably being the most recent ....I’m still waiting on someone to find me a 1 or 2a guard that has gone power six in the last 15 to 20 years ( not as a challenge because I’m truly curious )

 

I don’t think those offers were as certain as you think...else the kid would likely wait because if he is getting those level of offers that means he would be getting a bunch more offers from a lot of other mid level schools too opening up a ton more opportunities. Maybe he thought Stetson was perfect and no sense waiting because that was the best for him...but likely Covid or not he wasn’t going to get a ton more offers. You don’t make a decision when things are warming up with other schools. If those big schools were going to offer than that means a bunch of mid majors would also be considering him and why take your name off the list if one of them might be a good fit. No...logically the kid was getting feedback that sure some schools here and there might offer but things has plateaued and the list he had was not going to change all that much. 
 

 I think he realized his fit and level he was going to obtain. Kid has had tons and tons of feedback from coaches. You don’t get to the level he has and spend that much time playing and around staffs not have a ton of feedback on what level he would play at and how he would see playing time etc. I could be wrong but to push the narrative even now that he was going to get those higher level offers (even if he had talked to the schools you listed and gotten feedback I’d be pretty confident the feedback wasn’t as strong as you make it seem) I think is really taking the fandom a bit far. Kid has done amazing to get the offers he has and to play at Stetson coming from where he did...not every day you have a kid from that level of play make it to D1. You guys should take pride...but to make it out like he turned down bigger opportunities that was “sure” to come...even I can’t get with you on that one. Sure I think he is better than probably half of the 12-13th men on most high level teams but that doesn’t mean he would have ever gotten the offer to go there. Just means big schools strike out on “potential” and I think every team could use an elite shooter ball handler even if just for a specialty role...but that just isn’t how teams are built....and those end of bench roles are guys that the coaches still project or hope to be starters someday and not just a role player. Again will love to catch his game down here against FGCU in a few years and have a shrimp po boy before the game with ya but I think his decision says more about where he potentially was going to end up then our prognostications did.

Edited by dgambill

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Just sayin’ but Aminu Mohammed, IU’s 1A or 1B 2021 recruit, plays 1A in Missouri, which is even less competitive than IN 1A. The difference is he played up a year at a nationally recognized AAU program and stood out against nationally ranked competition. In this day and age, talent finds a way to stand out.

And Jordy played a tough 4A schedule with a lot of exposure to the best HS competition in the state (4A metro / burbs e.g. NC, Pike, LN, LC, Carmel, Warren, etc.). People here underrate how tough that competition is.

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2 hours ago, IUBBx5Banners said:

Just sayin’ but Aminu Mohammed, IU’s 1A or 1B 2021 recruit, plays 1A in Missouri, which is even less competitive than IN 1A. The difference is he played up a year at a nationally recognized AAU program and stood out against nationally ranked competition. In this day and age, talent finds a way to stand out.

And Jordy played a tough 4A schedule with a lot of exposure to the best HS competition in the state (4A metro / burbs e.g. NC, Pike, LN, LC, Carmel, Warren, etc.). People here underrate how tough that competition is.

It isn’t even all the size of the school as you pointed out...and it isn’t all the size of the kid...size/athleticism has a lot to do with it. Aminu is like 6’4 and is a stud physically. You take a 6’0-maybe 6’1 kid with little to no Athleticism to keep his man in front of him or to get past them at the college level then you have a specialist. It takes a perfect fit on a very narrow field of schools to make that work. Sure Luke has always been able to find a shot for himself but he won’t be able to create for his teammates by breaking down a defense and he would struggle defensively. Essentially he is a one trick pony at the high college level....that just isn’t going to cut it for most coaches that want a well rounded player.
Now the level he will be at playing at Stetson... he will see kids of similar athleticism and size most nights and his superior skill level should help him win out. He is a really talented ball player...and while he has everything you want to teach a kid..the unteachable as far as athletics go he just wasn’t blessed with what he needs to be a power 6 starter. Not his fault and yet no shame in where he ended up...quite an accomplishment.

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4 hours ago, IUBBx5Banners said:

Just sayin’ but Aminu Mohammed, IU’s 1A or 1B 2021 recruit, plays 1A in Missouri, which is even less competitive than IN 1A. The difference is he played up a year at a nationally recognized AAU program and stood out against nationally ranked competition. In this day and age, talent finds a way to stand out.

And Jordy played a tough 4A schedule with a lot of exposure to the best HS competition in the state (4A metro / burbs e.g. NC, Pike, LN, LC, Carmel, Warren, etc.). People here underrate how tough that competition is.

I’ll be honest I don’t know much about Missouri high school ball or aminu ...is it a public or private school ? If so that’s 1 nice work I was google searching indiana and couldn’t come up with any 

Edited by IU/Butler/Notre Dame

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20 hours ago, dgambill said:

I don’t think those offers were as certain as you think...else the kid would likely wait because if he is getting those level of offers that means he would be getting a bunch more offers from a lot of other mid level schools too opening up a ton more opportunities. Maybe he thought Stetson was perfect and no sense waiting because that was the best for him...but likely Covid or not he wasn’t going to get a ton more offers. You don’t make a decision when things are warming up with other schools. If those big schools were going to offer than that means a bunch of mid majors would also be considering him and why take your name off the list if one of them might be a good fit. No...logically the kid was getting feedback that sure some schools here and there might offer but things has plateaued and the list he had was not going to change all that much. 
 

 I think he realized his fit and level he was going to obtain. Kid has had tons and tons of feedback from coaches. You don’t get to the level he has and spend that much time playing and around staffs not have a ton of feedback on what level he would play at and how he would see playing time etc. I could be wrong but to push the narrative even now that he was going to get those higher level offers (even if he had talked to the schools you listed and gotten feedback I’d be pretty confident the feedback wasn’t as strong as you make it seem) I think is really taking the fandom a bit far. Kid has done amazing to get the offers he has and to play at Stetson coming from where he did...not every day you have a kid from that level of play make it to D1. You guys should take pride...but to make it out like he turned down bigger opportunities that was “sure” to come...even I can’t get with you on that one. Sure I think he is better than probably half of the 12-13th men on most high level teams but that doesn’t mean he would have ever gotten the offer to go there. Just means big schools strike out on “potential” and I think every team could use an elite shooter ball handler even if just for a specialty role...but that just isn’t how teams are built....and those end of bench roles are guys that the coaches still project or hope to be starters someday and not just a role player. Again will love to catch his game down here against FGCU in a few years and have a shrimp po boy before the game with ya but I think his decision says more about where he potentially was going to end up then our prognostications did.

1. Always respect your opinion 2. Will definitely enjoy the sandwich 3. Not pushing a narrative ...I think it’s more indicative of a debate we’ve had many times , I think he made the decision he was going to take playing time immediately over riding the bench and risking Never getting off it BUT I’ll also be honest I haven’t seen them since we haven’t been able to play our mens league nor attend his games ( they were off this weekend as they had a teammate test positive and have to sit for 14 days on a side note ) so I don’t wanna say too much about what all the decision was based on till I hear more from them directly 

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1 hour ago, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said:

I’ll be honest I don’t know much about Missouri high school ball or aminu ...is it a public or private school ? If so that’s 1 nice work I was google searching indiana and couldn’t come up with any 

He is originally from the DC area and moved out there last year or year two

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7 hours ago, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said:

Move in general like for family reasons ? Or did they pick Missouri for basketball reasons ?

I believe his brother is playing college ball somewhere in Missouri was the reason for the move

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5 hours ago, BDB said:

I believe his brother is playing college ball somewhere in Missouri was the reason for the move

Yes his brother plays for Missouri St so his guardian moved him there. Greenwood laboratory is basically on the campus of Missouri St. 350 kids...I’m sure it’s private school. Payne Stewart graduated from there...that’s all I got lol. Obviously known for academics. If you saw Aminu teammates you would know it isn’t an athletics school. They have played is some of those big round robin tournaments against like oak hill and other prep schools etc...so he doesn’t just face undersized kids all the time (but mostly). He had his most dominant games against them...like 38pts 20 rebs because it was the only way his team could compete. When competition steps up he basically takes over for them. Again though I mean we are talking literally a 5* vs a 3* kid...physically night and day. I think summing this all up...Luke didn’t get higher offers because of a combination of things...mostly though due to size and athleticism concerns not skill and shooting/scoring...and all the smaller school competition did was solidify the perception. Now...he will have opportunities at Stetson to show people they were wrong when he faces big time competition. I think for the moment we just have to assume he is at the right level for him to succeed and if he proves otherwise then some people will eat their crow. I’ll be interested to follow what little I’ll see down here as I would any Indiana kid.

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17 hours ago, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said:

 

Can i ask why you're so invested in this kid?  Are you from the area?  Do you know the family?  Did you got to this school?  

Just trying to put some context behind your die hard support for a kid that isn't yours.

Not trying to be rude or poke you or anything, just interested.

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1 hour ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Can i ask why you're so invested in this kid?  Are you from the area?  Do you know the family?  Did you got to this school?  

Just trying to put some context behind your die hard support for a kid that isn't yours.

Not trying to be rude or poke you or anything, just interested.

He is from Blackford I believe he said. Given they have won like 2 games in the 4 years before Brown moved to town and now they are winning sectionals and have shot to go further I will understand his excitement.

Edited by dgambill
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