Stories That Make You Shake Your Head At The World

[mrflynn03]

18 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I would certainly support anything that helps the situation.  And, while background checks would help, they will not stop most of these, especially school shootings.  Most school shooters are getting their hands on these weapons by means other than legally purchasing from a licensed dealer.

   

I blame the defunding of mental health institutions. Believe it or not Reagan is at fault. Then he got shot by John Hinckley Jr.  Dumb bastard. 

The weapon is a choice, some more effective than others. I could kill a dozen people with a pocket knife before the cops showed up if I wanted to. But I don't. 

Charles Whitman is a great example.  He told people he was messed up in the head. No one listened or payed attention.

That is the real problem.  Some people need serious help, but nobody will listen or give them an ear. 

You want to know what the root of the problem is? Loneliness, but Noone will listen. 

 

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, HoosierFaithful said:

That is refreshing to hear, especially from some folks I know I generally disagree on politics with.  

I'm generally apolitical, though I tend to favor politicians that tend to stay in the middle. As a general rule, i don't hold anyone's beliefs against them.  It's their right.  This is one topic, however, I have a hard time being neutral on.  I have an aunt that lives in Sandy Hook.  My cousins grew up in Sandy Hook.  I spent some summer vacations in Sandy Hook.  Now, that event took place well after my cousins and I were grown, but it had, and still has, a profound effect on me.

The 2nd amendment provides U.S. citizens the right to bear arms.  That right allows someone to hunt for food or recreation, and protect their home.  I'm not advocating against that amendment.  But, that amendment was written with shotguns and hunting rifles in mind.  It was not intended to allow an 18 year old access to an AR15 or other automatic weapon.  That someone would fight legislation that would prevent that from happening boggles my mind.  

 

[mrflynn03]

7 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'm generally apolitical, though I tend to favor politicians that tend to stay in the middle. As a general rule, i don't hold anyone's beliefs against them.  It's their right.  This is one topic, however, I have a hard time being neutral on.  I have an aunt that lives in Sandy Hook.  My cousins grew up in Sandy Hook.  I spent some summer vacations in Sandy Hook.  Now, that event took place well after my cousins and I were grown, but it had, and still has, a profound effect on me.

The 2nd amendment provides U.S. citizens the right to bear arms.  That right allows someone to hunt for food or recreation, and protect their home.  I'm not advocating against that amendment.  But, that amendment was written with shotguns and hunting rifles in mind.  It was not intended to allow an 18 year old access to an AR15 or other automatic weapon.  That someone would fight legislation that would prevent that from happening boggles my mind.  

 

I'm not going to argue the intent of the 2nd amendment. It wasn't written just for hunting.  

But I will say, first getting an automatic weapon requires a class 3 license and $$$$  

Nobody, is using an automatic weapon to carry out the atrocities.  Less than 1% are done with rifles. 

It's all smoke and mirrors.

[Drroogh]

I’ll add social media as part of the problem! So much hatred being spread on it!

[HoosierFaithful]

It's a distinction without a difference - an AR-15 or any semi-automatic still fires between 80-120 rounds per minute before bump stocks are included, and they're exceedingly easy to get (and a "high capacity magazine" was used in this shooting).  That many rounds is about 100 too many.

[mrflynn03]

1 hour ago, HoosierFaithful said:

It's a distinction without a difference - an AR-15 or any semi-automatic still fires between 80-120 rounds per minute before bump stocks are included, and they're exceedingly easy to get (and a "high capacity magazine" was used in this shooting).  That many rounds is about 100 too many.

No it is not a distinction without a difference. Have you owned or fired an AR-15 or any semi-automatic?  They aren't all the same. 

Bump stocks are relatively new and gay. Most legitimate gun owners don't own those peices of shit. 

Bump stocks have nothing to do with this shooting.  

[5fouls]

6 hours ago, mrflynn03 said:

I'm not going to argue the intent of the 2nd amendment. It wasn't written just for hunting.  

But I will say, first getting an automatic weapon requires a class 3 license and $$$$  

Nobody, is using an automatic weapon to carry out the atrocities.  Less than 1% are done with rifles. 

It's all smoke and mirrors.

However it is technically classified, an AR15 is not in the same class as a shotgun.  It's not a weapon that should find its way into the hands of an 18 year old.

[IUFLA]

10 hours ago, HoosierFaithful said:

I want to try to make this generally apolitical, but it's a political question, so please just keep that in mind and try to toe the line here for the sake of me learning about other's views.

Would you support universal background checks?  It seems to be the lowest common denominator of potential regulations that could/should be agreeable.  I would hypothesize it can't get passed for structural/political reasons, not related to its relative agreeableness.

I would support having a more thorough background check to include red flags for any necessitated mental health evaluation. 

One thing that strikes me particularly about these last two horrible crimes...

The perpetrators wore body armor...that indicates to me they wanted to live...these were no "suicide by cop" deals, although the shooter in Uvalde was taken out by law enforcement. There has to be clues to why in studying these people...

Edited May 25, 2022 by IUFLA

[IUFLA]

2 hours ago, 5fouls said:

However it is technically classified, an AR15 is not in the same class as a shotgun.  It's not a weapon that should find its way into the hands of an 18 year old.

We ask thousands of 18 year olds to handle semi automatic weapons in the military every day...can't very well do that and then infringe on the very rights they are sworn to preserve, protect, and defend...

We have to focus on the mental health aspect here...

Edited May 25, 2022 by IUFLA

[tdhoosier]

8 hours ago, HoosierFaithful said:

That is refreshing to hear, especially from some folks I know I generally disagree on politics with.  

I believe that polls say 90% of Americans agree on UBC’s. So……congress???? It’s been more than 20 years since Columbine. I think its very disturbing when even bipartisan legislation can’t get through congress.

[hoosier_exotics]

8 hours ago, mrflynn03 said:

I blame the defunding of mental health institutions. Believe it or not Reagan is at fault. Then he got shot by John Hinckley Jr.  Dumb bastard. 

The weapon is a choice, some more effective than others. I could kill a dozen people with a pocket knife before the cops showed up if I wanted to. But I don't. 

Charles Whitman is a great example.  He told people he was messed up in the head. No one listened or payed attention.

That is the real problem.  Some people need serious help, but nobody will listen or give them an ear. 

You want to know what the root of the problem is? Loneliness, but Noone will listen. 

 

100% agreed. If you are or have a friend or family member that is a vet. You'll know exactly how piss poor our mental health programs are. My brother struggles mightily with mental issues from Iraq...  I've had multiple discussions with the VA here in Indiana and I can tell you it is pretty much worthless

[IUFLA]

14 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I believe that polls say 90% of Americans agree on UBC’s. So……congress???? It’s been more than 20 years since Columbine. I think its very disturbing when even bipartisan legislation can’t get through congress.

Until we get rid of career politicians, we'll never get bipartisan legislation on any important issues of the day...

Term limits. Cut the Senate to 4 years terms, and have a max of 2 terms. Keep the House at 2 year terms, with a max of 4 terms. We don't get anywhere with these career people because their only interest is stuffing their own bank accounts and winning their next term. The wants and needs of the American people aren't even on their agenda.

[mjeze106]

31 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

We ask for thousands of 18 year olds to handle semi automatic weapons in the military every day...can't very well do that and then infringe on the very rights they are sworn to preserve, protect, and defend...

We have to focus on the mental health aspect here...

While the US does seem to have a higher rate of mental health (at least diagnosed) than other countries, it is disproportionate to the rate of gun deaths compared to those same countries.

If we are looking at the data, the gun death problem is a unique one to our country alone.

[bluegrassIU]

9 hours ago, 5fouls said:

I'm generally apolitical, though I tend to favor politicians that tend to stay in the middle. As a general rule, i don't hold anyone's beliefs against them.  It's their right.  This is one topic, however, I have a hard time being neutral on.  I have an aunt that lives in Sandy Hook.  My cousins grew up in Sandy Hook.  I spent some summer vacations in Sandy Hook.  Now, that event took place well after my cousins and I were grown, but it had, and still has, a profound effect on me.

The 2nd amendment provides U.S. citizens the right to bear arms.  That right allows someone to hunt for food or recreation, and protect their home.  I'm not advocating against that amendment.  But, that amendment was written with shotguns and hunting rifles in mind.  It was not intended to allow an 18 year old access to an AR15 or other automatic weapon.  That someone would fight legislation that would prevent that from happening boggles my mind.  

 

Although I agree with most of what you have said, the 2nd ammendment was primarily put in place to allow the people to defend themselves against an over reaching aggressive government. 

It is the "reason" militias give as an excuse to stockpile the deadliest weapons possible.

The actual purpose of the 2nd amenent makes it difficult to legislate any weapon away.

Not saying g I agree either way. But that's the dynamics that will continue to foster massive debate and frustration. 

[RoadToZion]

Maybe instead of giving tens of billions to other countries, we can use that to protect our kids. Just brainstorming here but how about using our vetrans who are trained and frankly currently treated like shit in this country to protect these schools. No offense, but the "security guards" I've seen at schools aren't enough. There has to be a way. Enough is enough. No reason to make this a political issue. Schools should be the safest place for kids to be at. 

[tdhoosier]

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

We ask for thousands of 18 year olds to handle semi automatic weapons in the military every day...can't very well do that and then infringe on the very rights they are sworn to preserve, protect, and defend...

We have to focus on the mental health aspect here...

Every country has mental health issues, but they do not have close to the number of mass shooting as we do. Yes, we need to work on mental health, but since we are pondering this, what has congress done to make access to mental health support easier since columbine? Mental health is nothing more than an empty promise and a talking point used after a mass shooting to deflect the fact that congress is dysfunctional. 

@IUFLA, my frustration is not pointed at you because mental health is a problem. It’s at every politician who goes on TV and all of the sudden remembers that mental health is a problem in the US only after a mass shooting. The ones who act like they can waive it away with a magic wand and this will, all of the sudden, stop mass shootings. The ones who have not done a single thing to address mental health since the last mass shooting. 

Unfortunately due to our culture of sensationalism, troubled people know how to inflict the most damage and the most hurt in the most sensationalistic way. Mass shootings are the way to do it. You’ve hear ‘the drug of choice’ - this is the ‘tragedy of choice’ for the horribly disturbed and cowardly. Whether this is mental health, a breakdown of the family structure, violent video games……you name it. These people, this problem, will not go away any time soon. There will always be people with the urge to inflict this kind of hurt. There are in other countries too. The difference is that we have easy access to the tools that allow them to inflict this amount of hurt, in such high numbers. 

[Reacher]

Late joining this discussion. Many good points already been made. Maybe we can get some clarification from the licensed firearms dealer on this board, but as has been mentioned, Universal Background Checks don't seem to be the issue. I believe they are already being conducted. Any loopholes are minuscule. I'm all for UBCs and responsible training / gun ownership. I think guns should be locked / secured if their are minor children in the house.

The problem is criminals don't pay attention to the law, they by definition, break the law.  That is why I got a laugh from the mayor the of Chicago declaring an earlier curfew. If a gangbanger is going to shoot somebody, you think they are also worried about breaking curfew? The problem is enforcing the laws already on the books. Many times somebody is flagged but not reported to the right agency. I can't recall who at the moment but a recent mass shooter was found to be somebody the FBI had previously been watching.

This country has grown accustomed to ignoring laws, selecting which laws to enforce, and who to enforce them on. We are seeing the effects. People are fleeing big cities due to crime. I was drawn to the story in NYC where a week after Mayor Eric Adams pleaded with businesses to return to the office that a Goldman Sachs employee was fatally shot on the subway commuting to work. Goldman Sachs is a leader in pushing for 5 days at the office. This is the result. Now how many more people will lessen their trips to a big city? I know I have been for years.

Public school attendance is dropping https://www.npr.org/2021/12/15/1062999168/school-enrollment-drops-for-second-straight-year. There are many reasons- Covid, mental health, demographics, curriculum issues, etc but the threat of violence and the rise in home schooling is a part of the reason as well.

To sum things up, I don't think new laws are needed as much as enforcing the existing laws (including properly sentencing those convicted and stopping the revolving door out of jails).  Add better mental health treatment and programs and things could turn around quickly. 

[5fouls]

1 hour ago, bluegrassIU said:

Although I agree with most of what you have said, the 2nd ammendment was primarily put in place to allow the people to defend themselves against an over reaching aggressive government. 

It is the "reason" militias give as an excuse to stockpile the deadliest weapons possible.

The actual purpose of the 2nd amenent makes it difficult to legislate any weapon away.

Not saying g I agree either way. But that's the dynamics that will continue to foster massive debate and frustration. 

I'll bite.  Why does the 'right to bear arms' clause include automatic and semi-automatic weapons that have no practical use outside of killing multiple people as quickly as possible, but it doesn't allow someone to possess a missile fitted with a nuclear warhead?

The 2nd amendment was NOT written with the intent for these weapons in mind because those types of weapons did not exist.  It was written based on the types of weapons that existed at that time.  Shotguns, rifles, and six-shooters.  Nothing more was intended.

 

[Reacher]

1 hour ago, RoadToZion said:

Maybe instead of giving tens of billions to other countries, we can use that to protect our kids. Just brainstorming here but how about using our vetrans who are trained and frankly currently treated like shit in this country to protect these schools. No offense, but the "security guards" I've seen at schools aren't enough. There has to be a way. Enough is enough. No reason to make this a political issue. Schools should be the safest place for kids to be at. 

Love that Idea. I brought it up before. Train and arm teachers while we are at it.  Don't tell me there aren't some retired military that went into teaching that would already be well trained. Chicago Public schools used to have on duty police offers assigned inside the schools until they were kicked out. Apparently people objected to feeling safe? Many schools are already locked down to an extent but then doors left open because it is too much trouble to keep someone there to buzz kids in. I went to an after school event for my nephew a few weeks ago and was amazed I was able to enter a high school without being stopped / checked and roam the halls with tons of kids while trying to find out where  needed to go. 

[Reacher]

2 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'll bite.  Why does the 'right to bear arms' clause include automatic and semi-automatic weapons that have no practical use outside of killing multiple people as quickly as possible, but it doesn't allow someone to possess a missile fitted with a nuclear warhead?

The 2nd amendment was NOT written with the intent for these weapons in mind because those types of weapons did not exist.  It was written based on the types of weapons that existed at that time.  Shotguns, rifles, and six-shooters.  Nothing more was intended.

 

Bear arms, at the time, meant guns and not missiles. That is why guns are protected today. A handgun is a gun. A missile is not. 

Please stop dragging automatic weapons into the discussion. Automatic weapons are already strictly regulated and are rarely part of the problem but rather used to inflame emotions. Of course nobody wants mentally unstable people using automatic weapons and there is already 99% (my guess) acceptance of that and many laws already on the books regarding that.

[bluegrassIU]

6 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'll bite.  Why does the 'right to bear arms' clause include automatic and semi-automatic weapons that have no practical use outside of killing multiple people as quickly as possible, but it doesn't allow someone to possess a missile fitted with a nuclear warhead?

The 2nd amendment was NOT written with the intent for these weapons in mind because those types of weapons did not exist.  It was written based on the types of weapons that existed at that time.  Shotguns, rifles, and six-shooters.  Nothing more was intended.

 

I am not disagreeing or debating with you at all. I am just saying it can be viewed differently by different people.

What some view as common sense, others may view as an overreaching government attacking the laws that are in place to protect them from said government.

And, by the way, you leave me and my nuclear bomb storing basement alone

 Nothing to see here.   

[IUFLA]

18 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'll bite.  Why does the 'right to bear arms' clause include automatic and semi-automatic weapons that have no practical use outside of killing multiple people as quickly as possible, but it doesn't allow someone to possess a missile fitted with a nuclear warhead?

The 2nd amendment was NOT written with the intent for these weapons in mind because those types of weapons did not exist.  It was written based on the types of weapons that existed at that time.  Shotguns, rifles, and six-shooters.  Nothing more was intended.

 

Not the issue...if I'm defending myself, my home, my family from an individual or as @bluegrassIU says "an overreaching" (and I'll add "tyrannical") government, I'm not going to be effective with my 2 handguns.

“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787 

[HoosierFaithful]

Good discussion here, but to ignore the striking similarity in these shootings is willful ignorance IMO - an AR-15 seems to be far and away the weapon of choice for mass shootings, perhaps we can find a way to make this all a wee bit harder to shoot 20 kids?

 

 

[bluegrassIU]

It's all so difficult in a free and open society.

Mental health is such an issue. And so challenging. 

Even if monitored and detected early, at what point can anybody force certain treatment or actions taken?

 

Often times we may know a person has major mental health issues. But not be aware just how bad the issues are until it is too late.

Even when diagnosed, in a free society, how do we enforce any action deemed necessary to protect us from what a person MAY do without crossing major lines regarding liberty, freedom etc.

These are such difficult topics. And many people keep losing their lives. 

I am good at listing all the challenges. I suck at having answers.

[Joe_Hoopsier]

36 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Late joining this discussion. Many good points already been made. Maybe we can get some clarification from the licensed firearms dealer on this board, but as has been mentioned, Universal Background Checks don't seem to be the issue. I believe they are already being conducted. Any loopholes are minuscule. I'm all for UBCs and responsible training / gun ownership. I think guns should be locked / secured if their are minor children in the house.

The problem is criminals don't pay attention to the law, they by definition, break the law.  That is why I got a laugh from the mayor the of Chicago declaring an earlier curfew. If a gangbanger is going to shoot somebody, you think they are also worried about breaking curfew? The problem is enforcing the laws already on the books. Many times somebody is flagged but not reported to the right agency. I can't recall who at the moment but a recent mass shooter was found to be somebody the FBI had previously been watching.

This country has grown accustomed to ignoring laws, selecting which laws to enforce, and who to enforce them on. We are seeing the effects. People are fleeing big cities due to crime. I was drawn to the story in NYC where a week after Mayor Eric Adams pleaded with businesses to return to the office that a Goldman Sachs employee was fatally shot on the subway commuting to work. Goldman Sachs is a leader in pushing for 5 days at the office. This is the result. Now how many more people will lessen their trips to a big city? I know I have been for years.

Public school attendance is dropping https://www.npr.org/2021/12/15/1062999168/school-enrollment-drops-for-second-straight-year. There are many reasons- Covid, mental health, demographics, curriculum issues, etc but the threat of violence and the rise in home schooling is a part of the reason as well.

To sum things up, I don't think new laws are needed as much as enforcing the existing laws (including properly sentencing those convicted and stopping the revolving door out of jails).  Add better mental health treatment and programs and things could turn around quickly. 

I'm tacking with you 100% I believe. I do think most everyone supports UBC's and training IN THEORY. Speaking for myself, I don't trust where further legislation on UBC's could rabbit hole off into and go counter to 2A.

example - It's the normal gloomy mid January in Indiana. Cloud cover, cold, stuck in the house. You go to your DR for the normal annual checkup and they ask, are you feeling depressed or any depression. You simply answer, yea man, I just feel a little down. Maybe (probably) you just need some sun and the beach. But 2 yrs later you have a UBC conducted... Flagged since you have a history of depression. So hard to codify this without "over reach" at someones advantage of their agenda.

I know some will say, our laws could never be used that way. To that, I would have to sternly disagree.