MoyeCowbell Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, rico said: I am honestly "answering" your questions... - The only use I, personally, would have for an AR15 would be to kill groundhogs doing crop/other damage to/on my farm place. - I have wondered how our forefathers dealt with people who owned cannons? Rico, I don't know you, but am just using your answers as set up for questions of my own.... no personal attack here. - Would you be willing to take out groundhogs with a different weapon if it meant that ARs went away? - What? How does that relate to our current situation? There weren't mass-cannonings happening all over the country at that time. There wasn't an epidemic of wayward people going rouge with cannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 Just now, MoyeCowbell said: Rico, I don't know you, but am just using your answers as set up for questions of my own.... no personal attack here. - Would you be willing to take out groundhogs with a different weapon if it meant that ARs went away? - What? How does that relate to our current situation? There weren't mass-cannonings happening all over the country at that time. There wasn't an epidemic of wayward people going rouge with cannons. - Yes and I do. - The point is was there some sort of "gun control" back then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoyeCowbell Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, Reacher said: I don't think it is an either or. Both sides should be addressed. Treating the root causes will take time and in the meantime our children should not be sitting ducks. As @IUFLApointed out, there are successful programs around the country that train and arm teachers, or others, in the schools. I've never seen where all teachers should be armed but having a few that are willing and capable can go a long ways. According to your rationale, teachers shouldn't coach sports then. Spending hours per day doing that is much more of a distraction than maybe a couple hours per month of firearm / active shooter training. Lastly, Steve Kerr is in the news regarding the TX shooting. The same Steve Kerr who complained about having police in the schools. Put the police back and there is no need to arm and train teachers. I would argue that Teaching and Coaching have a MUCH larger cross-over in terms of practical skillsets and application, than Teaching and Counter-Arms/Tactical training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 Armed, trained police confronted the attacker yesterday and didn't stop him. How are teachers supposed to? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 But the good guys with a gun didn't stop the bad guy with a gun before he murdered people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 I'm not anti-police, or even anti-police at schools, I'm just pointing out how it doesn't seem to be a silver bullet. None of these solutions are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 I am driving to a meeting and heard a security expert being interviewed on the radio. He brought up several salient points. First it starts with the mental condition of the shooters. There's often a troubling history and a trail of breadcrumbs that lead up to these events. If you see something say something. Next is the school security. There are many layers involved. You can't rely on just one layer. Having secure entrances, people within the school able to respond, Community Law Enforcement response, faculty training all need to play a part 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said: But the good guys with a gun didn't stop the bad guy with a gun before he murdered people. The good guy undoubtedly saved lives. What if there had been another good guy on scene? The good guy with the gun was the only thing that worked, to an extent, in this situation. You are correct, that is just one aspect. As the security expert I heard mentioned, there needs to be many layers of security and you are only as good as your weakest link. Edited May 25, 2022 by Reacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 This paints the picture of a troubled person Bullied, crappy home life and on and on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoyeCowbell Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Reacher said: I am driving to a meeting and heard a security expert being interviewed on the radio. He brought up several salient points. First it starts with the mental condition of the shooters. There's often a troubling history and a trail of breadcrumbs that lead up to these events. If you see something say something. Next is the school security. There are many layers involved. You can't rely on just one layer. Having secure entrances, people within the school able to respond, Community Law Enforcement response, faculty training all need to play a part We're obviously focusing on the most *recent* mass shooting, which happened at a school, but this suggested level of security would surely need to be implemented in other areas where these incidents occur, no? Churches, synagogues, retail stores, movie theaters, etc. Adding all these layers of security inevitably creates a "police state" which then becomes the very thing that the many people who arm themselves think they're protecting themselves against. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoyeCowbell Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, RoadToZion said: How do you even make this comment? He is a hero and saved multiple lives. Our point is we need more security. What a tasteless comment from our "admin". I don't think he said anything vile. Both things can be true. A Hero / Good Guy can still be one despite the atrocities committed by the Bad Guy. And the focus should be on the Bad Guy, who was able to commit these murders, not indict the survivors who "didn't do enough" to stop him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, RoadToZion said: How do you even make this comment? He is a hero and saved multiple lives. Our point is we need more security. What a tasteless comment from our "admin". Tasteless? You have a different opinion than me, and that's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, MoyeCowbell said: We're obviously focusing on the most *recent* mass shooting, which happened at a school, but this suggested level of security would surely need to be implemented in other areas where these incidents occur, no? Churches, synagogues, retail stores, movie theaters, etc. Adding all these layers of security inevitably creates a "police state" which then becomes the very thing that the many people who arm themselves think they're protecting themselves against. Not necessarily...In most situations I can protect myself...and I can guarantee I'm not the only one that's equipped to do that in the state of Texas...my wife is too...along with quite a few other people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 You seem a bit aggressive - I am not sure I have the answer, but I'm not sure I'm required to in order to share my thoughts..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 Ghost guns, 3-D printers. Guns manufactured by people buying individual parts and assembling them. If someone wants a weapon that isn't registered and can't be traced, they are gonna find a way to get it. Single point of entry should be mandated at every school in the country. Either an armed, trained security guard, or extra layers of identification should be required before that door is ever opened. I like the idea of hiring veterans or retired police as a work force to handle security. The mental health aspect is difficult. Until it becomes destigmatized, people are going to shy from seeking help. Unfortunately, labels stick with people causing difficulties obtaining employment, among other things. There should be multiple times the amount of money devoted to mental health treatment as is being spent on gun control. Most importantly, a small community has been devastated. Outreach to the families, friends, and co-workers, and classmates of the victims should be paramount. The young people who saw their school mates die are going to require an immense amount of help to heal. May God be with them all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 3 hours ago, Lostin76 said: We value individual freedom I'll be the first one to say that I value individual freedom over pretty much all else. I live by the laws decided on by the representatives of the governed... I'm sure there are things people I like and value on this forum do that I personally wouldn't do and might even frown on, but I'm a live and let live guy... I look at countries that have sacrificed or had their individual freedoms taken, and I wonder why people would let that happen... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostin76 Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 33 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I'll be the first one to say that I value individual freedom over pretty much all else. I live by the laws decided on by the representatives of the governed... I'm sure there are things people I like and value on this forum do that I personally wouldn't do and might even frown on, but I'm a live and let live guy... I look at countries that have sacrificed or had their individual freedoms taken, and I wonder why people would let that happen... I too value individual freedom - to a point. Voting rights, freedom of speech, etc are important. When I mention valuing individual freedom above all else, I’m talking about how many people think they are the absolute and should have total freedom regardless of how it may hurt others. They are not, nor should they be. No one needs the freedom to be armed to the teeth just walking into a McDonalds. You don’t need to strut around with multiple guns and protective equipment to go to the store. Another example, we know huge SUVs and trucks kill people outside of them at an alarming rate. Other countries have sensibly studied this and restricted automakers from making/selling those enormous vehicles. But here, you should have as many guns on your person as you desire, so you can feel safe ordering a Big Mac. And you should never be restricted in the size of SUV/truck you own. Even if said truck is more dangerous to everyone around you. After all - Murica and Freedom. I could go on and on, but we do tend to value individual freedom over the public good. That to me is complete bull. It’s cowardly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 I heard much of the press conference on the school shooting. A few takeaways- The failure was on the mental health side. This guy had issues and broadcast his intentions on FB. The teachers did what they were supposed to do. Community law enforcement response was quick and effective. The problem is that while police and border patrol were there quickly, he still entered the building. He was confronted by a resource official at the entry but was unable to be stopped. Had the entry been locked down better and or the person who met him there been armed, there would have been another layer to protect lives. Someone actually brought up the fact that stricter gun laws are not the answer and there is evidence from NYC, Chicago and CA that stricter laws do not work. There are more shootings on an average Chicago weekend than in the entire state of TX. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjeze106 Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 53 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said: Ghost guns, 3-D printers. Guns manufactured by people buying individual parts and assembling them. If someone wants a weapon that isn't registered and can't be traced, they are gonna find a way to get it. Single point of entry should be mandated at every school in the country. Either an armed, trained security guard, or extra layers of identification should be required before that door is ever opened. I like the idea of hiring veterans or retired police as a work force to handle security. The mental health aspect is difficult. Until it becomes destigmatized, people are going to shy from seeking help. Unfortunately, labels stick with people causing difficulties obtaining employment, among other things. There should be multiple times the amount of money devoted to mental health treatment as is being spent on gun control. Most importantly, a small community has been devastated. Outreach to the families, friends, and co-workers, and classmates of the victims should be paramount. The young people who saw their school mates die are going to require an immense amount of help to heal. May God be with them all. Other countries have access to ghost guns and 3-D printers. Other countries have mental health issues (US maybe at a slightly higher clip but not much)... Why are gun deaths, mass shootings (using whatever definition you choose), suicides, etc. significantly higher than any other country? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoyeCowbell Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Reacher said: I heard much of the press conference on the school shooting. A few takeaways- The failure was on the mental health side. This guy had issues and broadcast his intentions on FB. The teachers did what they were supposed to do. Community law enforcement response was quick and effective. The problem is that while police and border patrol were there quickly, he still entered the building. He was confronted by a resource official at the entry but was unable to be stopped. Had the entry been locked down better and or the person who met him there been armed, there would have been another layer to protect lives. Someone actually brought up the fact that stricter gun laws are not the answer and there is evidence from NYC, Chicago and CA that stricter laws do not work. There are more shootings on an average Chicago weekend than in the entire state of TX. A critical point is being missed simply because the *latest* shooting was at a school. A killer shot and killed multiple people in a public place. Replace "school" with "movie theater", "grocery store", "church", "post office", "shopping mall", "synagogue", etc... are you saying we need an armed guard at every. single. location? Is that what it's come to? Do we need an armed guard at Texas Roadhouse to protect us so we can have a Bloomin' Onion in peace? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 9 hours ago, 5fouls said: However it is technically classified, an AR15 is not in the same class as a shotgun. It's not a weapon that should find its way into the hands of an 18 year old. Im only one example but I had access to whatever I wanted starting about 12 years old and never once thought of harming anyone. But there are no doubt people out there should not have the access they do. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 5 hours ago, 5fouls said: I'll bite. Why does the 'right to bear arms' clause include automatic and semi-automatic weapons that have no practical use outside of killing multiple people as quickly as possible, but it doesn't allow someone to possess a missile fitted with a nuclear warhead? The 2nd amendment was NOT written with the intent for these weapons in mind because those types of weapons did not exist. It was written based on the types of weapons that existed at that time. Shotguns, rifles, and six-shooters. Nothing more was intended. I'm not trying to be argumentative just informative. The Puckle gun was patented in 1718. It was a crew served revolving "machine gun". So the concepts did exist at the time. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puckle_gun 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, Reacher said: There are more shootings on an average Chicago weekend than in the entire state of TX. I know I said I was out, but I'm struggling with understanding why something so clear to me is not clear to everyone. It is not about the right to possess a gun/firearm/weapon. It's the TYPE that is the issue. This 18 year old walks into that school with a weapon that has between 2 and 6 rounds and 21 people dont die. Some may, but not 21. Yes, there are too many shootings in Chicago. But, as a general rule, they are not mass shootings because the guns being used fire a limited number of rounds. Why does the average person need a weapon that fires 50+ rounds without having to stop and reload? There is no logical reason the average person, mentally ill or not, needs such a weapon. Not one. Zero. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said: Im only one example but I had access to whatever I wanted starting about 12 years old and never once thought of harming anyone. But there are no doubt people out there should not have the access they do. 99.99% of the population could own/possess an AR15 and not harm a soul. But, literally no one outside of law enforcement or the military needs to own/possess such a weapon. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 18 minutes ago, 5fouls said: 99.99% of the population could own/possess an AR15 and not harm a soul. But, literally no one outside of law enforcement or the military needs to own/possess such a weapon. But wouldn't that just give the government a monopoly on force? Governments have a long history of abusing their power and people. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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