HoosierFaithful Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 People can think whatever they want, but the idea that you're gonna beat the government at a game of force has always been ludicrous to me, AR-15 or not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 minute ago, HoosierFaithful said: People can think whatever they want, but the idea that you're gonna beat the government at a game of force has always been ludicrous to me, AR-15 or not. 20 years in Afghanistan and the taliban were ultimately successful. Russia spent 14 years trying. The tools the government would use are our neighbors, friends, family. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 ... comparing the US government to the Afghan government is not a good faith argument. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 that's like comparing me to TJD in a game of 1:1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 55 minutes ago, Lostin76 said: I too value individual freedom - to a point. Voting rights, freedom of speech, etc are important. When I mention valuing individual freedom above all else, I’m talking about how many people think they are the absolute and should have total freedom regardless of how it may hurt others. They are not, nor should they be. No one needs the freedom to be armed to the teeth just walking into a McDonalds. You don’t need to strut around with multiple guns and protective equipment to go to the store. Another example, we know huge SUVs and trucks kill people outside of them at an alarming rate. Other countries have sensibly studied this and restricted automakers from making/selling those enormous vehicles. But here, you should have as many guns on your person as you desire, so you can feel safe ordering a Big Mac. And you should never be restricted in the size of SUV/truck you own. Even if said truck is more dangerous to everyone around you. After all - Murica and Freedom. I could go on and on, but we do tend to value individual freedom over the public good. That to me is complete bull. It’s cowardly. You get into a very slippery slope there... Most people I know buy a vehicle based on what they can afford and the utility they need. Are you going to dictate to a family of 6 what vehicle they choose? Or are we going to restrict the number of children allowed per family? I use to own a full sized Tundra when I use to haul my own hay, because I needed it. I drive what I drive on my commute because it is the most practical and comfortable option for me. No one else gets to decide that. And my guns go out of my house pretty much every day. Some days (normally twice a week) to a gun range. My wife and I both like shooting. We're law abiding citizens, but it also serves a purpose to us...again my choice. Are there people who wear a gun for show or drive a large SUV for prestige? Sure. But I see many things in life that bother me much more. I see parents with kids dirty and dressed in rags while the parents have elaborate tattoos all over them. But, it's their life... Neither guns nor SUVs killed or hurt anyone by themselves. Only when humans get involved do either become dangerous. And even then, it's a small segment of the irresponsible that make them that way. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said: that's like comparing me to TJD in a game of 1:1 Hit him below the belt on your way to the hoop. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaybobHoosier Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 (edited) My point of view as I am someone who is a gun owner and NRA MEMBER: We live in a different world where there needs to be more common sense gun laws. Do we need to ban all guns or certain guns, no. However, I think access to guns should go through more of a vetting process. It may not save lives or it may, but things need to be put in place to try and prevent these sort of things from happening in the future. Personally, I don’t mind going through a stronger vetting process because I know I will get my gun and be cleared to do so. I’m not going to get into a political argument because both sides nowadays need to really rethink things. Everything will get worse with both sides constantly bickering at one another. For the safety of our children, community, and nation, we MUST and HAVE to come together to make it better! Edited May 25, 2022 by JaybobHoosier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, JaybobHoosier said: My point of view as I am someone who is a gun owner and NRA MEMBER: We live in a different world where there needs to be more common sense gun laws. Do we need to ban all guns or certain guns, no. However, I think access to guns should go through more of a vetting process. It may not save lives or it may, but things need to be put in place to try and prevent these sort of things from happening in the future. Personally, I don’t mind going through a stronger vetting process because I know I will get my gun and be cleared to do so. I’m not going to get into a political argument because both sides nowadays need to really rethink things. Everything will get worse with both sides constantly bickering at one another. For the safety of our children, community, and nation, we MUST and HAVE to come together to make it better! Why just limit it to better vetting. Why not put more stringent restrictions on types of guns that have no practical use for the average citizen. Criminals will get get around more stringent vetting laws. But, if all they can get off the street is an old six shooter, then our schools, groceries, theaters, and churches immediately become safer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 As for gun control, before the 94 ban semi auto rifles like the ar-15 were relatively unpopular. The ban started the proliferation and popularity of semi autos. There was a study done after the ban that showed it had no discernable affect on crime. I've seen automatic rifles mentioned several times. The domestic manufacture of automatics for the public was banned in 1986. They are NFA items and every automatic rifle in existence for the public is registered and on a list. It requires a class 3 license for purchase. Good luck finding one for less than $20,000. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said: ... comparing the US government to the Afghan government is not a good faith argument. Well, after 20 years look who's in charge over there. I wasn't comparing governments though. Just point out the strongest military in the world was unable to defeat them. Edited May 25, 2022 by mrflynn03 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaybobHoosier Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 Just now, 5fouls said: Why just limit it to better vetting. Why not put more stringent restrictions on types of guns that have no practical use for the average citizen. Criminals will get get around more stringent vetting laws. But, if all they can get off the street is an old six shooter, then our schools, groceries, theaters, and churches immediately become safer. I totally get what you and others are saying on this matter, and I don’t think you are totally wrong. I should have put more words into my post (I’m at work and trying to not go long-winded lol), because I’m not opposed to certain guns having bans on them, or where they are ever more restrictions on then that others. IMO, just saying ban certain guns will fix the problem is incorrect. There will always be black-market guns where criminals can obtain them. Stronger vetting practices, mental health backgrounds, etc. all need to be discussed and put into place that makes sense. Regardless, thoughts and prayers to those impacted in Texas regarding this horrible tragedy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, JaybobHoosier said: There will always be black-market guns where criminals can obtain them. I agree with this statement. But, the people going on the black market to get them would likely be affiliated with the drug trade or organized crime. An 18 year old with intent on shooting up a school probably would not go this route. You immediately save innocent lives. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Hoopsier Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 17 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Why just limit it to better vetting. Why not put more stringent restrictions on types of guns that have no practical use for the average citizen. Criminals will get get around more stringent vetting laws. But, if all they can get off the street is an old six shooter, then our schools, groceries, theaters, and churches immediately become safer. So you are saying we need a law that says the only illegal street guns one can buy is an old 6 shooter. Do I have that right? I think that would be perfect for someone to advertise, See I did something about gun control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 Check out the last paragraph... https://www.wane.com/news/crime/man-punched-in-florida-road-rage-incident-dies-days-later/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Reacher said: Someone actually brought up the fact that stricter gun laws are not the answer and there is evidence from NYC, Chicago and CA that stricter laws do not work. There are more shootings on an average Chicago weekend than in the entire state of TX. How many guns confiscated from crimes come from within the city limits of Chicago? The answer is zero because there are zero stores that sell guns in the city. So, I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. The problem with Chicago is not the strict gun laws, it's the flow of illegal weapons that come in from outside the city limits and outside the state of Illinois. Out of the 36,000 illegal guns seized by the CPD, an estimated 60% of them come from out of state - mainly Indiana, Mississippi and Wisconsin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaybobHoosier Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 17 minutes ago, 5fouls said: I agree with this statement. But, the people going on the black market to get them would likely be affiliated with the drug trade or organized crime. An 18 year old with intent on shooting up a school probably would not go this route. You immediately save innocent lives. I can agree, but also disagree with this statement. I’m more of the mindset if someone is going to do it, nothing will stop them. However, I could see it being a deterrent. Unfortunately I don’t see a perfect solution, but absolutely all ears to try and help this horrific situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 15 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: How many guns confiscated from crimes come from within the city limits of Chicago? The answer is zero because there are zero stores that sell guns in the city. So, I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. The problem with Chicago is not the strict gun laws, it's the flow of illegal weapons that come in from outside the city limits and outside the state of Illinois. Out of the 36,000 illegal guns seized by the CPD, an estimated 60% of them come from out of state - mainly Indiana, Mississippi and Wisconsin. By definition, criminals are not going to obey laws. If you are intent on killing, you will find a way. Maybe a gun, maybe driving a car into a crowd. The root cause of the problem is the individual who has no respect for life and mental health issues that lead to that decision and not the instrument used. As for Chicago, they have strict gun laws yet guns are common. Why? Outlawing gun stores has no effect because the criminal will find a way around that. Why aren't those arrested for bringing guns into the city prosecuted? I believe that is where the failure lies. They are being arrested but not sentenced and or held in jail. When there are no consequences for criminal behavior you will get more of it. https://policetribune.com/chicago-prosecutor-drops-charges-in-massive-gang-gunfight-claims-mutual-combat/ "Foxx’s office released five suspects in a deadly shooting that occurred on Oct. 1 after refusing to charge the men with first-degree murder or any other felony, the Chicago Sun-Times reported." https://www.chicagoreporter.com/thousands-felony-gun-cases-are-being-dismissed-cook-county-criminal-courts/ "More than 13,000 cases that included a gun violation have been dismissed " 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 Excerpt from an article saying todays culture is to blame for these shootings- "The high school kids who shot rifles in school in 1985 were taught right and wrong. They were taught what to do with their rifle in school, and what not to do. If they got out of line, all the other students and the coach would have come down on them hard. There were no safe spaces, and that was a good thing. Culture is a powerful force for good. When good behavior is normalized and deviant destructive behavior is ostracized, shamed, and marginalized, you get more good behavior. Thirty years ago, kids who brought their rifles to the high school shooting range didn’t wonder about evil and cultural decay. They simply lived in a time in America when right and wrong were more starkly defined, where expectations about behavior were clear, and wickedness hadn’t been normalized. The idea that guns caused the carnage we have faced is so intellectually bankrupt that it isn’t worth discussing. Remembering where we were as a nation just 30 years ago makes it even more so. It’s time to ask what changed." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 16 minutes ago, Reacher said: Why aren't those arrested for bringing guns into the city prosecuted? Because every state has a different way of enforcing straw purchases. Many of those guns come from the same stores but the CPD’s jurisdiction ends at the Chicago line. There is no true ‘gun control’ if states have different laws. Point being is that restrictions would need to happen at the federal level to have an effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 Type of gun. Type of gun. Type of gun. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 hour ago, HoosierFaithful said: People can think whatever they want, but the idea that you're gonna beat the government at a game of force has always been ludicrous to me, AR-15 or not. Famous last words of every subjugated man in the history of the civilized world... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Hoopsier Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 27 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Famous last words of every subjugated man in the history of the civilized world... Ranks right up there with... Oh, that could NEVER happen. If no one can see the examples from Afghanistan and now Ukraine, I just don't know what to say and those are just recent. Oh heck, maybe now we can add Portland to the scenario that the US Government would just squash everyone like a bug... Rights were not granted on the whims of... "In my opinion, you just probably don't need that, it doesn't make sense to me". OK carry on. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 I'll trade my AR 15's for term limits for all public officials and a mandatory retirement age of 68 which is the maximum mandatory age for military general and flag officers. And congressional pay raises voted on by referendum. If we can't trust generals with billions of dollars of high tech gear and soldiers lives we shouldn't trust geriatrics with legislation that won't affect them. Seems like a fair trade. Can't take without giving something up. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Hoopsier Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said: I'll trade my AR 15's for term limits for all public officials and a mandatory retirement age of 68 which is the maximum mandatory age for military general and flag officers. And congressional pay raises voted on by referendum. If we can't trust generals with billions of dollars of high tech gear and soldiers lives we shouldn't trust geriatrics with legislation that won't affect them. Seems like a fair trade. Can't take without giving something up. If so, do we keep our Mini 14's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 Just now, Joe_Hoopsier said: If so, do we keep our Mini 14's? Yes. And M1 garand if you have one. And mini 30 and....well I don't need to list them all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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