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Stories That Make You Shake Your Head At The World


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50 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Still not following...

My commitment to keeping myself and my property safe is irrational?

No. It's very rational and I share that desire to keep my family safe as well.

I just personally do not see the need to have a small arsenal of high powered, assault rifles to do so. My comment about irrationality comes from a thought that more guns (and high-powered guns) will keep us safer.

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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

It's still an outlier.  80/20 rule.  Address the 80 percent with everything at your disposal.  Deal with the other 20% as best you can after the first 80% is resolved. 

Look, I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind.  That said, of all the topics that divide people in this country, this is the single most puzzling to me that people can't agree on.  

So you must have been in favor of prohibition?! Lol, 😘 just kidding.

Everyone has their own opinions, and even though owning a gun should be a right, I do believe more things have to be put in place to help with this horrific shootings. 

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Just to make sure I have been true to my word, Since this conversation started, I have now went back and watched Grand Torino again.

Yep, My feelings are all there in Cinematic Scripture. Get out of my yard!

 

And for you motor heads (not the band), the 351 Cleveland in the Gran Torino was a beast, it just needed a little tweaking from the factory !

😁 

 

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So one more post and I'll leave this subject be, because it breaks my heart a little more every time I think about it...

It's not that I don't understand the rationale of my friend @5fouls... I do. Eliminate those particular guns and psychopaths can't kill as many as quickly...

But, they can still kill... Maybe not as quickly, but as long as they have access to a weapon, their twisted minds can still carry out evil deeds. And if Ramos had killed 5 rather than 20 it's still a tragedy and there is still unspeakable grief...

The goal is for tragedies like these not to happen at all. The first step is making the school access proof to outsiders. Surveillance cameras outside being monitored inside. School lot fenced (and not with a lame 4 foot chain link like Robb Elementary had) Every external door locked. Every classroom door locked. Every window bulletproof. Armed security in whatever form available. More education on "if you see something, say something" to kids, parents, and educators alike.

But we also have to address the mental health issues. This kid was bullied, and grew up in a dysfunctional house with a mother who had her own demons apparently. He had basically withdrawn from society. We need to find out what makes these young men so angry? Why are they so desensitized about taking human lives, particularly young children? 

To my friends @Lostin76 and @HoosierFaithful, all I can say is, I value my freedom over my life itself. I grew up poor and lived the "American Dream." I want to protect that whatever the personal cost may be. 

It's still there despite all the distractions and divisiveness. 

Edited by IUFLA
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1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

So one more post and I'll leave this subject be, because it breaks my heart a little more every time I think about it...

It's not that I don't understand the rationale of my friend @5fouls... I do. Eliminate those particular guns and psychopaths can't kill as many as quickly...

But, they can still kill... Maybe not as quickly, but as long as they have access to a weapon, their twisted minds can still carry out evil deeds. And if Ramos had killed 5 rather than 20 it's still a tragedy and there is still unspeakable grief...

The goal is for tragedies like these not to happen at all. The first step is making the school access proof to outsiders. Surveillance cameras outside being monitored inside. School lot fenced (and not with a lame 4 foot chain link like Robb Elementary had) Every external door locked. Every classroom door locked. Every window bulletproof. Armed security in whatever form available. More education on "if you see something, say something" to kids, parents, and educators alike.

But we also have to address the mental health issues. This kid was bullied, and grew up in a dysfunctional house with a mother who had her own demons apparently. He had basically withdrawn from society. We need to find out what makes these young men so angry? Why are they so desensitized about taking human lives, particularly young children? 

To my friends @Lostin76 and @HoosierFaithful, all I can say is, I value my freedom over my life itself. I grew up poor and lived the "American Dream." I want to protect that whatever the personal cost may be. 

It's still there despite all the distractions and divisiveness. 

Would the GOP go for your idea on securing all schools?  I wonder?  Maybe add that to an infrastructure bill?  

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3 minutes ago, jv1972iu said:

Would the GOP go for your idea on securing all schools?  I wonder?  Maybe add that to an infrastructure bill?  

Why wouldn't they? Why single out the GOP? Anyone with a modicum of sense would vote to secure our schools... And if my congressman and senators didn't, I'd hold them accountable...

 

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23 hours ago, 5fouls said:

I'm bowing out of this topic after this post.

- No one has yet to provide a practical use of a weapon like the AR15 outside of military or law enforcement.

- No one has offered any compelling argument that the 2nd amendment had the AR15 in mind when it was written

- 'Facts' can be extremely misleading without context.

Im guessing over the last 5 pages that I'm going to have to skip, someone answered this. 

It actually has been answered many times, not sure why it isn't being acknowledged.  The 2nd amendment is to ward off all enemies foreign and domestic.  The US is likely never to be invaded by ground troops because we haven't disarmed ourselves like Ukraine.  We won't be putting our people in containment camps lile Australia did, after they disarmed themselves.  

Not to mention our own government.  It doesn't matter which side anyone claims to be, it only matters who is in control and how far these sickos will go.  Governments all over the world and even more so in the last, what, 200 years, have killed more of their own people than in all the wars combined. Insane to think about.  As far as a semi auto.  Yeah I really need anti tank to fight off the armies our police have become.  But I'll make some homemade stuff and band together with my brothers to defend our freedom, foreign and domestic.  

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2 hours ago, IUFLA said:

But, they can still kill... Maybe not as quickly, but as long as they have access to a weapon, their twisted minds can still carry out evil deeds. And if Ramos had killed 5 rather than 20 it's still a tragedy and there is still unspeakable grief...

I think this is the crutch of what @5fouls is saying. 10 deaths is better than 20, and in most cases that might be the difference of using a hard gun vs. an AR-15. 10 deaths is still horrible, but that's 10 more kid's who are still around to hug their parents. 

I'm not saying there is a right answer to this, but hypothetically is 10 lives enough to give up your right to an AR-15? Is one-hundred? Is one-thousand? Is there even a number that would make you consider this? 

For me the answer is 1. But I don't care about guns. I don't have one. I don't want one. It's easy for me to say that because I'm not giving up anything. I think AR-15s cause way more trouble than prevent trouble in this country. I haven't been is a situation where I needed any gun. I do not know one person who has been in a situation where they needed a gun. But that's me and that's my experiences. Maybe I'm lucky. Maybe all my friends and family are lucky. I don't know. Perhaps this is where the disconnect is - people experiences, fears, principles, level of trust/distrust etc. are different. 

 

Edited by tdhoosier
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23 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I think this is the crutch of what @5fouls is saying. 10 deaths is better than 20, and in most cases that might be the difference of using a hard gun vs. an AR-15. 10 deaths is still horrible, but that's 10 more kid's who are still around to hug their parents. 

I'm not saying there is a right answer to this, but hypothetically is 10 lives enough to give up your right to an AR-15? Is one-hundred? Is one-thousand? Is there even a number that would make you consider this? 

For me the answer is 1. But I don't care about guns. I don't have one. I don't want one. It's easy for me to say that because I'm not giving up anything. I think AR-15s cause way more trouble than prevent trouble in this country. I haven't been is a situation where I needed any gun. I do not know one person who has been in a situation where they needed a gun. But that's me and that's my experiences. Maybe I'm lucky. Maybe all my friends and family are lucky. I don't know. Perhaps this is where the disconnect is - people experiences, fears, principles, level of trust/distrust etc. are different. 

 

The correct answer is "zero." 

But you're not going to get there by banning AR-15s. Once again, Virginia Tech showed us that... 

Think about how long it would take to get that legislation debated and passed, if ever. 

As opposed to the measures I cited which could start helping tomorrow. We come up with money for COVID, foreign entities, illegal immigrants... Put some money into protecting US kids... Quit focusing on which pronouns or bathrooms people should use and fix real problems... 

 

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I was thinking maybe part of the reason death toll is high in alot of these situations is because there is no path for egress.  So people huddle together and try to hide.

From grade school through college almost every classroom I was in had one door for exit/entry. 

The focus always shifts to gun control, more recently hardening the target.  Rarely mental health because that discussion is too difficult. 

What about room construction?  Retro fit classrooms with adjoining doorways so there is a means for escape. Add steal plates to the classroom side of hallway facing doors. 

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12 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

But you're not going to get there by banning AR-15s. Once again, Virginia Tech showed us that... 

But you will. And you keep on using VT as an example, but that was an outlier as far as school shootings go. You're telling me not having access to an AR-15 (or weapons like it) wouldn't have made a difference to the death count in columbine, Sandy Hook, Parkland, San Bernardino, etc.? Because that's your one life saved right there. 

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News stories out today are saying the police waited around before entering the school and or went in to retrieve their own kids. Apparently 2 police officers were shot when the subject entered the school. The entry system / resource person stationed there obviously failed in this case. I'm sure other schools will learn from that. 

Regarding the gun debate, I'm not understanding some of the logic. I think people recognize "automatic" weapons are largely not available and not being used in these instances but the moniker "automatic" invokes war and acts to scare and evoke emotion. The next step is to go after the rifle. Some rifles, like the AR-15, look scarier than others. I believe an AR-15 shoots at around the same rate as any pistol. We don't want to take pistols out of the old ladies purses that have to work in big cities so lets target the rifles? If it is not the shooting rate, it must be the shooting capacity? Are 2 ten round magazines much different than a 25 round magazine? Is the size of the magazine the issue? If so, the rifle is fine and we should focus on the size of the magazine? Many states already have those laws. Must be something else...

I think the focus is being misplaced here. While a sad commentary on society, I think schools can and should be hardened. Police offices, court buildings, banks and currency exchanges all of some layers of protection. If that was 100% successful, the criminal would move down the list to the next location of opportunity. Until the underlying reasons for this societal decay and the ability to identify and treat the mental issues are resolved we are not going to get anywhere. 

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8 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said:

I was thinking maybe part of the reason death toll is high in alot of these situations is because there is no path for egress.  So people huddle together and try to hide.

From grade school through college almost every classroom I was in had one door for exit/entry. 

The focus always shifts to gun control, more recently hardening the target.  Rarely mental health because that discussion is too difficult. 

What about room construction?  Retro fit classrooms with adjoining doorways so there is a means for escape. Add steal plates to the classroom side of hallway facing doors. 

How many kids have died in school fires in the last 50 years?  Zero?  Close to zero.  

We do fire drills nationwide, every single month.  

How many active shooter drills do we do?  Zero.  I asked my school administrators, what's the plan?  I was told for years they were working on it.  Crickets in 9.5 years of teaching.  My end of hall science wing teachers had a plan though.  I had a baseball bat and wasp spray and the other two guys had their science tool of choice.  The kids would run if they could, barricade if not, and everyone was to find something to turn into a weapon.  

Here's the sad thing.  You could ask the teachers and students, name the 5 kids most likely to shoot up the school and everyone would make a near identical list.  You think anything was done in the name of mental health and resources for these kids?  Not much.  

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30 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said:

I was thinking maybe part of the reason death toll is high in alot of these situations is because there is no path for egress.  So people huddle together and try to hide.

From grade school through college almost every classroom I was in had one door for exit/entry. 

The focus always shifts to gun control, more recently hardening the target.  Rarely mental health because that discussion is too difficult. 

What about room construction?  Retro fit classrooms with adjoining doorways so there is a means for escape. Add steal plates to the classroom side of hallway facing doors. 

Respectfully, I do not think mass shootings are a rooms/door issue.

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16 hours ago, IUFLA said:

I never like to speak out of ignorance, so I'd like an example of a government that restricts the manufacturing, import, or sale of oversized vehicles. If the US would do that, who's the arbiter of who qualifies for what? 

And to be honest, my friend, I've been on this earth 64 years and I have as yet to see any person with a gun slung over their shoulder in any business I've ever frequented. And I live in Texas 🙂

Some people in Texas do exercise their right to openly carry a pistol, but most, myself included, conceal their firearm when carrying. I don't want people to know. I also respect Texas penal codes 30.05-30.07 and 46.03 in respect to WHERE I can and can't carry.

European countries tax vehicles on size, weight, engine size and fuel consumption at a far higher rate than the the US. Their roads and parking spaces are also much smaller, so it’s mostly a process of self selection. You wouldn’t drive a Ford 150 in France or Italy, b/c the govt. would tax you to death and you couldn’t even drive it or park it on many roads. 

After spending 10 days in Italy’s Amalfi Coast and Rome, I can attest to this. You just don’t see the big pickups or luxury SUVs. 

My problem with these huge vehicles is that they are designed to protect the people inside the care at the expense of those outside of the car. Once again the US puts cars and guns above the safety of others. Every time. 

You sound a lot like my old man when it comes to guns. He’s going to have one on him most times, but you aren’t’ going to notice it. We’ve seen people here in MD with big rifles over their shoulder getting a Starbucks at Target. It’s just a weird flex. Maybe the people think it makes them look tough, but they just look weak and scared. 

 

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1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

But you will. And you keep on using VT as an example, but that was an outlier as far as school shootings go. You're telling me not having access to an AR-15 (or weapons like it) wouldn't have made a difference to the death count in columbine, Sandy Hook, Parkland, San Bernardino, etc.? Because that's your one life saved right there. 

I said "zero" is the correct answer, and that you won't get there by banning AR-15s... And you say "but you will."

So you're under the impression that if we ban AR-15s this will stop, apparently?

I use VT because it goes to show a motivated lunatic doesn't care what tool he uses to kill.

If the grounds and/or the building had been secured, we wouldn't even be having this conversation...

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33 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

European countries tax vehicles on size, weight, engine size and fuel consumption at a far higher rate than the the US. Their roads and parking spaces are also much smaller, so it’s mostly a process of self selection. You wouldn’t drive a Ford 150 in France or Italy, b/c the govt. would tax you to death and you couldn’t even drive it or park it on many roads. 

After spending 10 days in Italy’s Amalfi Coast and Rome, I can attest to this. You just don’t see the big pickups or luxury SUVs. 

My problem with these huge vehicles is that they are designed to protect the people inside the care at the expense of those outside of the car. Once again the US puts cars and guns above the safety of others. Every time. 

You sound a lot like my old man when it comes to guns. He’s going to have one on him most times, but you aren’t’ going to notice it. We’ve seen people here in MD with big rifles over their shoulder getting a Starbucks at Target. It’s just a weird flex. Maybe the people think it makes them look tough, but they just look weak and scared. 

 

What do they haul stuff with? As I said, most people buy for utility. I think moving horses around would be difficult for a Fiat 🙂 

Your father sounds like a solid guy... Us old fellas don't need to look tough 😉

 

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1 hour ago, MoyeCowbell said:

Respectfully, I do not think mass shootings are a rooms/door issue.

I never said they were. You missed the point. 

It's better to try to come up with ways to mitigate loss because if you are waiting for anything to happen on a national level good luck. 

And if there is no means of escape then it won't matter what weapon is being used. That's my point. As it stands if a shooter enters the room and controls the entry way there is no means of escape. 

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1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

How many kids have died in school fires in the last 50 years?  Zero?  Close to zero.  

We do fire drills nationwide, every single month.  

How many active shooter drills do we do?  Zero.  I asked my school administrators, what's the plan?  I was told for years they were working on it.  Crickets in 9.5 years of teaching.  My end of hall science wing teachers had a plan though.  I had a baseball bat and wasp spray and the other two guys had their science tool of choice.  The kids would run if they could, barricade if not, and everyone was to find something to turn into a weapon.  

Here's the sad thing.  You could ask the teachers and students, name the 5 kids most likely to shoot up the school and everyone would make a near identical list.  You think anything was done in the name of mental health and resources for these kids?  Not much.  

When I taught, at a middle school, we actually did have a full rehearsal drill complete with the police showing up and engaging in the drill. They had police going through the building and there was lots of commotion, banging on doors, etc. It was intense but needed. We all learned from that drill.

I am shocked more schools are not doing more to at least acknowledge the risk.

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48 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I said "zero" is the correct answer, and that you won't get there by banning AR-15s... And you say "but you will."

So you're under the impression that if we ban AR-15s this will stop, apparently?

I use VT because it goes to show a motivated lunatic doesn't care what tool he uses to kill.

If the grounds and/or the building had been secured, we wouldn't even be having this conversation...

There is also the Luby's shooting in Texas in 1991 and Fort Hood that used semi auto handguns only. That's just off the top of the head. 

One of the Lubys survivors spearheaded the effort for concealed carry because carrying back then wasn't legalized.  

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