St. John’s Post Game

[rico]

36 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I don't see anything we lose on offense with Rob that we gain with Lander. Neither are very good offensively, at all.  

I dont see Lander as a viable option, for now. 

You are forgetting about FT%.  

[btownqb]

3 minutes ago, rico said:

You are forgetting about FT%.  

There's no advantage for KL there. He doesn't get to the line. 

[rico]

7 minutes ago, btownqb said:

There's no advantage for KL there. He doesn't get to the line. 

Small sample size but it appears that KL is much better than Rob.  

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, rico said:

Small sample size but it appears that KL is much better than Rob.  

If he doesn't get there it doesn't matter. 

[rico]

3 minutes ago, btownqb said:

If he doesn't get there it doesn't matter. 

He can't get there if he doesn't play.  

[Artesian_86]

9 hours ago, btownqb said:

BH.. dont fall for it. 

.......some of these posters, I mean,.........they're unbelievable the way they think. I just can't. 🤬

[Inequality]

Same team fellas. Go Hoosiers!

[btownqb]

45 minutes ago, rico said:

He can't get there if he doesn't play.  

So... we're playing someone over another person because they shoot a better percentage from the foul line than another player, but the first player can't get there anyway. Lol 

What an argument

[btownqb]

KL has a huge opportunity in front of him. Go take RPs mins in practice, it's evident he hasn't done that until this point. 

It's not like Woodson is just playing RP for the sake of it. 

Hopefully KL is willing to play the long game here. It certainly seems that Leal is. 

[bluegrassIU]

Hey guys, we won. 

Let's keep the gloves on while we debate. 

[Billingsley99]

Just now, bluegrassIU said:

Hey guys, we won. 

Let's keep the gloves on while we debate. 

I debate better with my pants off, is that OK. Just a little levity 😀

[bluegrassIU]

Thanks for the early morning visual. I just lost.my appetite as I was about to eat breakfast.  🤢 

[FKIM01]

1 hour ago, btownqb said:

There's no advantage for KL there. He doesn't get to the line. 

Didn't he just score like 7 points in just a few minutes playing time?  I'm hard pressed to believe he's not been more valuable offensively this season at least.

[rico]

6 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Didn't he just score like 7 points in just a few minutes playing time?  I'm hard pressed to believe he's not been more valuable offensively this season at least.

Actually, Lander averages more ppg than Phin in the early going.  Once again, small sample size.

[Hoosier51]

29 minutes ago, bluegrassIU said:

Thanks for the early morning visual. I just lost.my appetite as I was about to eat breakfast.  🤢 

Yep my appetite just went out the window also lol.

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, btownqb said:

Didn't you say RP should have started the 2nd half in game one!?

No. I don’t watch game one live even. 

[BGleas]

There's no easy choice in the backup point guard debate, and it really just comes down to what Woodson values and is looking for in that position. Obviously, Phinisee brings a plus-defender that has experience and when playing well can be a steadying hand. Often times, that's what a coach wants in the backup PG. Someone he can trust. 

The downside with Phinisee is you're getting an over-dribbler offensively, who is what he is at this point. Let's face it, he's a bad shooter who also doesn't finish at the rim. I think we're beyond the point of thinking Phinisee can turn into a guy who consistently knocks down open shots. 

We have 3 years and 3 games worth of data that show us that Phinisee is a 35.7% shooter overall, a 29.5% 3pt shooter and a 66.7% free throw shooter. Those numbers are awful and most likely aren't changing over these next 25-30 games. 

With Lander, you're hoping for realized potential. I tend to agree with some others that the potential isn't as high as some think, but still you'd be playing him in hopes that by mid-to-late January you have a young, dynamic backup point guard that is passable defensively, but adding elements with his passing, speed, and getting to the rim and scoring or dishing. You're hoping for development. 

You can always go back to Phinisee, he's a veteran who will step in when called upon and give you what he's always given you.

The question is, what does Woodson want. I think he sticks with Phinisee, and I probably would too. My caveat though is that in these next three games, if XJ gets into early foul trouble I'd give Lander a shot at extended minutes. I'd go Phinisee in short, regular bursts, but if there is a chance for extended minutes I'd give Lander a chance to try and figure things out, assuming we're not sacrificing a game we should win. 

I feel like I'm playing both sides of the fence, but that's where I'm at. 

[btownqb]

15 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Didn't he just score like 7 points in just a few minutes playing time?  I'm hard pressed to believe he's not been more valuable offensively this season at least.

There's just no evidence to that. 7 mins against a crap opponent in the 2nd half, and 6 mins the other night. 

We get 10-12-14 games into this thing and KL is gaining more and more confidence/doing whatever else he needs to do... yes, he needs to be taking some Rob mins. 

Not as of now though. There are incredibly glaring weaknesses. I also don't think we'd be having this discussion if Lander was "ranked" correctly in HS. 

It's not all that deep for me though. RP isn't any good either, he's just better than Lander. Whatever Woodson decides is completely fine with me. 

[btownqb]

3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

No. I don’t watch game one live even. 

I didnt quote you on that one. That's was KY Hoosier I was responding to. 

[DWB]

There's no doubt in my mind that Woody saw Rob struggling against SJ. That's why KL came in.

Personally I thought he played better defense than he has in the past, but not nearly as good as Rob. Hell, nobody plays defense like Rob. And that's Woody's 1st objective to see playing time.

I'm glad KL got some meaningful minutes. Not just in length, but in importance as well. It wasn't mop up time. It was show time, and he did OK in my book. Not great, not horrible but above average.

[IUFLA]

11 minutes ago, BGleas said:

There's no easy choice in the backup point guard debate, and it really just comes down to what Woodson values and is looking for in that position. Obviously, Phinisee brings a plus-defender that has experience and when playing well can be a steadying hand. Often times, that's what a coach wants in the backup PG. Someone he can trust. 

The downside with Phinisee is you're getting an over-dribbler offensively, who is what he is at this point. Let's face it, he's a bad shooter who also doesn't finish at the rim. I think we're beyond the point of thinking Phinisee can turn into a guy who consistently knocks down open shots. 

We have 3 years and 3 games worth of data that show us that Phinisee is a 35.7% shooter overall, a 29.5% 3pt shooter and a 66.7% free throw shooter. Those numbers are awful and most likely aren't changing over these next 25-30 games. 

With Lander, you're hoping for realized potential. I tend to agree with some others that the potential isn't as high as some think, but still you'd be playing him in hopes that by mid-to-late January you have a young, dynamic backup point guard that is passable defensively, but adding elements with his passing, speed, and getting to the rim and scoring or dishing. You're hoping for development. 

You can always go back to Phinisee, he's a veteran who will step in when called upon and give you what he's always given you.

The question is, what does Woodson want. I think he sticks with Phinisee, and I probably would too. My caveat though is that in these next three games, if XJ gets into early foul trouble I'd give Lander a shot at extended minutes. I'd go Phinisee in short, regular bursts, but if there is a chance for extended minutes I'd give Lander a chance to try and figure things out, assuming we're not sacrificing a game we should win. 

I feel like I'm playing both sides of the fence, but that's where I'm at. 

I agree a bunch with this...If a guys isn't producing, you've got to see what you've got behind him in game situations...Coach Woody sees Lander in practice every day, so he knows some of what he's getting and whether he sees improvement or not. I liked the way Lander dealt with the St John's pressure, and how he ran the offense in his very short stint, but definitely need to see more...

Edit: The bolded part I don't know about...This should be his freshman year and you would expect some growing pains, but I really do think the extra year helped him just from a physical maturity and practicing with better competition standpoint. I don't think he was overrated at all...I think he has a ton of potential...he just needs the game reps to prove it...

Edited November 19, 2021 by IUFLA

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, btownqb said:

I don't see anything we lose on offense with Rob that we gain with Lander. Neither are very good offensively, at all.  

I dont see Lander as a viable option, for now. 

I think Rob bogs down the offense a lot more than Lander does. He pounds the air out of the ball and we stand around a lot more as a team with him in. 
 

When Lander is in things are at least happening. He needs to continue to get more PT so that it’s more good things than bad things, 

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, btownqb said:

KL has a huge opportunity in front of him. Go take RPs mins in practice, it's evident he hasn't done that until this point. 

It's not like Woodson is just playing RP for the sake of it. 

Hopefully KL is willing to play the long game here. It certainly seems that Leal is. 

I disagree here, we don’t know what has happened in practice. I think it’s very apparent Woody is giving upperclassmen the first crack at minutes. No better evidence than Bates being brought on slowly despite the rave reviews he has been getting in practice. 
 

For better or worse, Woody comes from an era where vets get the first crack at minutes. 

[KoB2011]

16 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I didnt quote you on that one. That's was KY Hoosier I was responding to. 

Weird. My phone pulled me to that response when I clicked on the notification and I didn’t pay that close of attention. 

[btownqb]

Just now, KoB2011 said:

I think Rob bogs down the offense a lot more than Lander does. He pounds the air out of the ball and we stand around a lot more as a team with him in. 
 

When Lander is in things are at least happening. He needs to continue to get more PT so that it’s more good things than bad things, 

That's the disconnect... I dont believe he deserves any more minutes then he's getting because I assume the coaching staff has evaluated and made a plan. 

Next game if he plays 10mins or 20mins.. doesn't make any difference to me. If that does happen, that's a good thing for our program, or it should be. 

Like I don't think anything he did the other night in the game should set him apart at all. But.. couple that with a good few weeks of practice, that could set him a part, for sure.