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14 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I’m honestly not that surprised. It’s a small sample size, but Rob and Durr have been outright awful on offense. 

Plus you need to look at the player combos when they are on the floor. Durr is very very likely to always have the worst +- because he is only in when our best player TJD is out. Rob is in when basically are second best scoring option is off the floor....but Rob absolutely has a lot more to do with his poor plus minus...the offense just hasn't operated with efficiency, pace, and he hasn't knocked down his share of shots.

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2 hours ago, NotIThatLives said:

Great handle?  He rarely ever goes right because he can't.  He lack of strength makes him weak going right and if venture a guess he's had 1 or 2 turnovers a game trying to break the press and it stems back to lack of strength again.  

I like everything else you said but we must be watching 2 different things.  

I guess we are not watching the same things :)! I do agree on needing more strength. In my opinion, if KL was 20 pounds heavier, we would be talking about him with similar gushing reviews as Tamar. 

The other players getting accustomed to having a pass arrive "at any moment" will help him with his turnovers as well. 

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11 minutes ago, GaloisGroupe said:

I guess we are not watching the same things :)! I do agree on needing more strength. In my opinion, if KL was 20 pounds heavier, we would be talking about him with similar gushing reviews as Tamar. 

The other players getting accustomed to having a pass arrive "at any moment" will help him with his turnovers as well. 

I guess not.  He always goes left unless he's hard forced right and then he typically picks up his dribble.  He's crafty no doubt but hitting Durr in transition that not even trayce would have been able the pass, he has to clean that up and be smarter.  

Strength will come bit obviously not over night.  Im very happy with his defensive improvements and he's a willing rebounder.  

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16 minutes ago, GaloisGroupe said:

I guess we are not watching the same things :)! I do agree on needing more strength. In my opinion, if KL was 20 pounds heavier, we would be talking about him with similar gushing reviews as Tamar. 

The other players getting accustomed to having a pass arrive "at any moment" will help him with his turnovers as well. 

KL’s shot is horrible, he’s out of control too much (poor handle) leading to too many turnovers, and gets beat off the dribble too much. Tamar shoots it much better and is better on D, so I disagree. 

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11 minutes ago, kyhoosier29 said:

KL’s shot is horrible, he’s out of control too much (poor handle) leading to too many turnovers, and gets beat off the dribble too much. Tamar shoots it much better and is better on D, so I disagree. 

"Out of control" does not mean a player lacks handle. Somebody with a good handle has good "ball control" - they themselves may be rushed or out of control. Watch the game again - he is able to dribble in traffic. 

Tamar is a better shooter and better defender - part of the defense is that Tamar already has the 20 extra pounds. But KL has better court vision and (in my opinion), slightly better dribbling skills.

Both of them could work on 3 point shooting form for next year.

EDIT: I am not knocking Tamar AT ALL - I am ridiculously high on Tamar; I think those two might turn into one of our best backcourts in recent memory. They have very complimentary skill sets.

Edited by GaloisGroupe
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16 minutes ago, GaloisGroupe said:

"Out of control" does not mean a player lacks handle. Somebody with a good handle has good "ball control" - they themselves may be rushed or out of control. Watch the game again - he is able to dribble in traffic. 

Tamar is a better shooter and better defender - part of the defense is that Tamar already has the 20 extra pounds. But KL has better court vision and (in my opinion), slightly better dribbling skills.

Both of them could work on 3 point shooting form for next year.

EDIT: I am not knocking Tamar AT ALL - I am ridiculously high on Tamar; I think those two might turn into one of our best backcourts in recent memory. They have very complimentary skill sets.

Out of control AND poor handles from what I’ve seen. And I watch every game, so I don’t need to re-watch. He’s averaging 3 TO per 20 min so far, so wonder what that number would be with more consistent run against better teams?

Tamar having extra weight may help him from getting pushed around as much, but Lander typically has issues keeping guys in front of him which has nothing to do with his lack of weight.

Everybody needs to work on their 3 pt shooting, but I’ll take TB taking a big shot every day of the week over Lander right now. But I hope they do turn into a great backcourt. However, I think people want Lander to live up to his 5 star rating so badly that we’re a little blinded by reality so far. I think there’s potential there but with the game on the line and needing a stop I’m going with RP right now. KL’s time is coming, no need to rush him into situations he’s not ready for. 

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1 hour ago, GaloisGroupe said:

EDIT: I am not knocking Tamar AT ALL - I am ridiculously high on Tamar; I think those two might turn into one of our best backcourts in recent memory. They have very complimentary skill sets.

Best of all is, KL & TB have very good apparent chemistry already.  I hope TB stays at least a couple of years, but man...

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If Lander can get to a place where the game slows down for him...watch out. He'll live up to the hype.

IF...he could dial back his speed by 10-15% I think he would perform much better. He always seems a little rushed to me. Hopefully the game slows down for him in the next few weeks.

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14 minutes ago, kyhoosier29 said:

Out of control AND poor handles from what I’ve seen. And I watch every game, so I don’t need to re-watch. He’s averaging 3 TO per 20 min so far, so wonder what that number would be with more consistent run against better teams?

Tamar having extra weight may help him from getting pushed around as much, but Lander typically has issues keeping guys in front of him which has nothing to do with his lack of weight.

Everybody needs to work on their 3 pt shooting, but I’ll take TB taking a big shot every day of the week over Lander right now. But I hope they do turn into a great backcourt. However, I think people want Lander to live up to his 5 star rating so badly that we’re a little blinded by reality so far. I think there’s potential there but with the game on the line and needing a stop I’m going with RP right now. KL’s time is coming, no need to rush him into situations he’s not ready for. 

I am not disagreeing with the bolded at all. I do not consider KL as RP's OR XJ's replacement this year; we will need all three to perform at a high level to have a good season. None of the three players are perfect...

I am not sure what "typically" means 4 games into the season (I do not count last year at all), but after he got his feet wet in the St. Johns game, he has stayed in front of guys for the most part...

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Funny how we all view his play differently this year...

I know I'm the eternal optimist, but I've seen a couple of things that make me think the kid is on the climb...

He has great court vision...and he's a good passer...

His defense is improved,,,,as @GaloisGroupe said, he stays in front of his guy...and I've been impressed with how he has fought through screens...

His shot is much better...He's 2 for 7 from 3, but his misses this year at least hit the rim...he had some terribly ugly shots last year that bricked the backboard or air mailed it...He looks much more comfortable shooting it this year...

I take comfort in the fact that we have 3 pretty good point guards (and if you've watched a lot of basketball so far, som e teams don't have one)...

If Coach Woody's happy, I'm happy...

 

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i have a question and maybe it's stupid so be nice.

Does anyone think Lander would play better if he was playing with Race, TJD, Stewart and XJ/Kopp on the floor.  On both ends.  Would he be better defensively if he had much better off ball help?  If he was playing the 2 instead of Point?

I can't say i have ever watched him play with the starters.  

Thought?

Edited by IowaHoosierFan
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8 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

i have a question and maybe it's stupid so be nice.

Does anyone think Lander would play better if he was playing with Race, TJD, Stewart and XJ/Kopp on the floor.  On both ends.  Would he be better defensively if he had much better off ball help?  If he was playing the 2 instead of Point?

I can't say i have ever watched him play with the starters.  

Thought?

Yes.

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1 hour ago, GaloisGroupe said:

I am not disagreeing with the bolded at all. I do not consider KL as RP's OR XJ's replacement this year; we will need all three to perform at a high level to have a good season. None of the three players are perfect...

I am not sure what "typically" means 4 games into the season (I do not count last year at all), but after he got his feet wet in the St. Johns game, he has stayed in front of guys for the most part...

Good point in the first paragraph. There is room and time for all three. And I don’t mean to make it sound like I dislike KL. That’s not accurate at all. I hope the kid ends up the next IT and helps us win another Banner. I just feel like he’s too loose and careless with the ball, needs to drastically work on his shot (and in the meantime understand he’s a get-to-the-rim and dish / distribute guy), and against the only quality comp we’ve played he got beat over and over. I think CMW will bring him along in the right manner and the kid will improve, hopefully to the potential we think he will.

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1 hour ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

i have a question and maybe it's stupid so be nice.

Does anyone think Lander would play better if he was playing with Race, TJD, Stewart and XJ/Kopp on the floor.  On both ends.  Would he be better defensively if he had much better off ball help?  If he was playing the 2 instead of Point?

I can't say i have ever watched him play with the starters.  

Thought?

I just watched the LA game again this afternoon and specifically watched Lander the whole time.

He did stay in front of his guy, fought thru most of the screens. But when he did get screened it was the fault of the IU guys not yelling at him that a screen was coming. Durr was especially silent. That needs to improve. The starters do a much better job of communicating.

He still takes some ill-advised shots (read 30 footers), but he is explosive to the rim. And what I really like is that he attacks the boards for rebounds. I think he had 6 rebounds, and that was as many as Geronimo. Race had 8 for a team high.

Personally I think he needs to bring the ball up the court faster, though in control, to get into the offense sooner. He's slower than X in bringing it up. Also dribbles a little too much. But once he passes it, he moves well without the ball.

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I really wonder about the criticism towards Lander in this topic. Dude is essentially a still a freshmen. I'd bet Tamar received comparable or a little less development at IMG last year than Lander got under Archie. Not a Lander fan boy, just don't understand why some people think its so necessary to address his shortcomings. I love Geronimo but he was mud on Sunday, why don't we have a 4 page thread criticizing all his shortcomings? 

Lander showed significant improvement from last year, no doubt. Does he still have room to grow? Absolutely. Can we be happy with the game-to-game progress we see in young players under a 1st year coach 4 games into the season? I hope so.

Edited by HooASUier
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2 hours ago, HooASUier said:

I really wonder about the criticism towards Lander in this topic. Dude is essentially a still a freshmen. I'd bet Tamar received comparable or a little less development at IMG last year than Lander got under Archie. Not a Lander fan boy, just don't understand why some people think its so necessary to address his shortcomings. I love Geronimo but he was mud on Sunday, why don't we have a 4 page thread criticizing all his shortcomings? 

Lander showed significant improvement from last year, no doubt. Does he still have room to grow? Absolutely. Can we be happy with the game-to-game progress we see in young players under a 1st year coach 4 games into the season? I hope so.

I guess you see it as dragging him through the mud. Some of us see it as reality or a discussion topic. I don’t think anybody criticizing him dislikes KL. I think he has plenty of shortcomings, more than others, but I also want him to succeed bc I want IU to succeed. I’m rooting for the kid. 

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45 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

That is part of the topic. Lander doesn't get playing time in a vacuum so what guys he is competing with for minutes do is relevant to the conversation. 

But I wasn't saying XJ SHOULDNT be involved in the convo..  I was just mentioning why I hadn't been critical of him in THIS thread. 

He's been..  not good until tonight. 

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6 hours ago, btownqb said:

But I wasn't saying XJ SHOULDNT be involved in the convo..  I was just mentioning why I hadn't been critical of him in THIS thread. 

He's been..  not good until tonight. 

None of our PGs, up until last night against a really bad team, have been what they need to be for us to be the best we can be. We need all three to play solid D and especially XJ and KL to understand we need them getting to the rim, taking care of the ball, and distributing. Their strength is not shooting the ball. 

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