Wisconsin Postgame Thread

[IowaHoosierFan]

I would like to see an offense where Stewart, XJ and Kopp are constantly moving.  Cutting to the basket.  Baseline side to side.  Curl routs around our big forwards.  Lots of picks on the block or in the lane to spring guys open, get defenders clustered up and then take advantage. 

What we have is a 3 man weave at the top (yuck) and a pick and roll with our wings standing around waiting for the ball on the 3 point line.  Bringing our big out to the top of the key for a terrible pick then try and roll down which hardly works against good teams. We're still not hard to defend if we're not shooting well.

Maybe we do that and i just don't see it watching the whole game.

[jojo123]

Woodson has buried Lander at the end of the bench for two games because the of the turnover he had at the end of the game against the cues. XJ  RP and TB all sucked last night. I guess my point is why is he trying to make a point with Lander when the entire group of gaurds have a been a turn over waiting to happen. Did Leal even shoot a shot? 

[madmax]

Purposely avoided this thread last night. This loss wasn’t on the coaches or the players-it was on both. We make free throws down the stretch we win. We make one or two baskets down the stretch we win. We get one or two more stops we win. Just a complete collapse and there’s not one person who played or coached last night who isn’t to blame. 
 

[btownqb]

13 minutes ago, jojo123 said:

Woodson has buried Lander at the end of the bench for two games because the of the turnover he had at the end of the game against the cues. XJ  RP and TB all sucked last night. I guess my point is why is he trying to make a point with Lander when the entire group of gaurds have a been a turn over waiting to happen. Did Leal even shoot a shot? 

He isn't trying to make a point, at all. He wouldn't have played against SU either if the other two hadn't of fouled out. The other two have a better A:T ratio than KL does. 

[IUCrazy2]

4 hours ago, btownqb said:

Why would anyone not be? 

I don't know...there were a few posting last night and this morning that do not seem to be.

[IUguy]

Just inexcusable!  Don't know that I can blame it on the coach, but I can't understand why they played so differently in the second half.  Why, after such a good shooting first half, did they not even try a three pointer until near the very end of the second half?  How, all of a sudden, did a team that sucks at offensive rebounding just go crazy with them?  Was it lack of effort?  I hope not.  After improving in their free throw shooting why did they pick this game to regress?  I know Wisconsin stepped up the defensive pressure, but we missed several bunnies near the end.

I'm pretty sure the 23 year thing had nothing to do with it.  But we scored less than 20 points in the second half and missed 15 or our last 16 shots.  Turnovers were OK, especially since at least two of them should not have happened or been called.  The phantom traveling call on Durr, and to me, the most important call of the game, the offensive foul call on X which should have been a hooking call on Davison at the end of the first half.  That was potentially a four point swing, which gave Wiscy momentum going into the second half.

Not much more can be said.  it's just frustrating, and I hope it doesn't hang over their heads going forward.

Edited December 9, 2021 by IUguy

[HoosierDPU95]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

He's never been on a winning team his whole college career...

in 89 career games (3 years) at Pitt they were 40-49 and under .500 every year...he started 86 of those 89 games...and of course at IU he's 7-2, starting all 9 games...

Last night, he was one of our leaders and the one who handles the ball and dictates the offense...In his post game, he said he was getting downhill, and that's his game, but decision making come into it as well...I'm not saying the rest of our leaders get off @IU Scott free  but he's the one leading the orchestra...

XJ seems like he plays with a lot of emotion, but he needs to temper that a little bit...

Two other things that I thought were important...XJ said in the 2nd half, Wisconsin was sticking to the shooters (mainly Kopp and Stewart)...How should Coach Woodson have countered that? Asking some of the people with coaching chops...

Second, we didn't get out in transition a whole lot in the 2nd half, like we were playing a little prevent defense by bleeding the clock...Seemed we got our shooters some open looks in transition in the 1st, and it worked well for us...

I don't disagree with any of this. I think we could agree that knowing what it takes to win (i.e. experience on winning teams) vs trying to win are different. My point is that I thought XJ was at least trying to win where everyone else was trying not to loose. "Prevent defense" is a great analogy. 9 times out of 10 it prevents you from winning. CMW said in the post game that they need to keep doing the things that got them the lead and that just didn't happen. 

[IUFLA]

9 minutes ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

I don't disagree with any of this. I think we could agree that knowing what it takes to win (i.e. experience on winning teams) vs trying to win are different. My point is that I thought XJ was at least trying to win where everyone else was trying not to loose. "Prevent defense" is a great analogy. 9 times out of 10 it prevents you from winning. CMW said in the post game that they need to keep doing the things that got them the lead and that just didn't happen. 

I kept thinking to myself, "don't slow play it...play just like you did in the 1st half...don't try bleeding the clock." It'd be interesting to know what was said in the huddles, because I heard the same thing you did in the postgame...I can only think of one time we got out in transition, and Tamar made a nice pass to Rob for an easy bucket...

[AxnJxn]

1 hour ago, btownqb said:

He isn't trying to make a point, at all. He wouldn't have played against SU either if the other two hadn't of fouled out. The other two have a better A:T ratio than KL does. 

That's pretty minimal when it comes to KL vs Rob: 10/11 vs 13/10 (not sure if that includes last night), and KL has better offensive numbers pretty much across the board outside of that. Rob's clearly a better defender, but our offense was pretty boggy for the whole second half, and KL brings a little more creativity and energy on that end IMO. Rob seems terrified to shoot or even drive when he's out there, and teams tend to follow their PG's lead. 

No one's saying KL was the answer, or that CMW is wrong for sitting him, because we don't know the whole story. It's just pretty glaring that in a game when we seemed to need someone, anyone, to create a shot or score, that he wasn't even considered as an option. 

[BGleas]

25 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I kept thinking to myself, "don't slow play it...play just like you did in the 1st half...don't try bleeding the clock." It'd be interesting to know what was said in the huddles, because I heard the same thing you did in the postgame...I can only think of one time we got out in transition, and Tamar made a nice pass to Rob for an easy bucket...

I'm curious on the same thing. The second half of that game is the first time all season where I've seen XJ deliberately and slowly walk the ball up the court for an extended stretch. I don't mean to take a dig at him, but he looked like Phinisee out there walking the ball up and taking forever to get into the offense in the second half. I'm very curious if that was coach driven, was it XJ sort of on his own, or was it a byproduct of the game (ie. not getting defensive stops, etc.). 

I just haven't seen XJ do that much before. We looked like an Archie Miller offense in the 2nd half. 

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, IUFLA said:

He's never been on a winning team his whole college career...

in 89 career games (3 years) at Pitt they were 40-49 and under .500 every year...he started 86 of those 89 games...and of course at IU he's 7-2, starting all 9 games...

Last night, he was one of our leaders and the one who handles the ball and dictates the offense...In his post game, he said he was getting downhill, and that's his game, but decision making come into it as well...I'm not saying the rest of our leaders get off @IU Scott free  but he's the one leading the orchestra...

XJ seems like he plays with a lot of emotion, but he needs to temper that a little bit...

Two other things that I thought were important...XJ said in the 2nd half, Wisconsin was sticking to the shooters (mainly Kopp and Stewart)...How should Coach Woodson have countered that? Asking some of the people with coaching chops...

Second, we didn't get out in transition a whole lot in the 2nd half, like we were playing a little prevent defense by bleeding the clock...Seemed we got our shooters some open looks in transition in the 1st, and it worked well for us...

In our two road games against tough competition he has a 16:6 ATO and I could make a very strong case that all 6 turnovers were terrible calls by the refs. His decision making has mostly been fine; he needs to stop fouling so he can stay on the floor.

He forced some bad shots last night no doubt, but TJD sure didn't help him. A PnR where your AA big rolls like a sack of potatoes isn't going to work. 

[btownqb]

16 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

That's pretty minimal when it comes to KL vs Rob: 10/11 vs 13/10 (not sure if that includes last night), and KL has better offensive numbers pretty much across the board outside of that. Rob's clearly a better defender, but our offense was pretty boggy for the whole second half, and KL brings a little more creativity and energy on that end IMO. Rob seems terrified to shoot or even drive when he's out there, and teams tend to follow their PG's lead. 

No one's saying KL was the answer, or that CMW is wrong for sitting him, because we don't know the whole story. It's just pretty glaring that in a game when we seemed to need someone, anyone, to create a shot or score, that he wasn't even considered as an option. 

I agree, understand the post I was quoting though.  The offense, as a whole, isn't really better with Lander on the court. We don't just go put up gobs of points just because he's inserted. 

But actually, while he was on the court in the first half, it wasn't bogged sudden at all.  2nd unit was playing fine, as a whole, offensively. 

I'm still sort of shocked that people are asking why someone with a negative AT ratio, as a PG, isn't getting more mins. I mean, it seems incredibly obvious to me why he hasn't playing. 

Yes., as I've mentioned KL shoots the basketball better than RP does. I cannot argue that, obviously that isn't overvalued by our coaching staff because of the negatives that KL brings.  

[AxnJxn]

Quote

I agree, understand the post I was quoting though.  The offense, as a whole, isn't really better with Lander on the court. We don't just go put up gobs of points just because he's inserted. 

Literally no one has said this. But, in a situation where we're playing poor offensively, and we have a guy on the bench who can create some offense, why isn't he not just not getting in the game at all, but not even considered?

Quote

But actually, while he was on the court in the first half, it wasn't bogged sudden at all.  2nd unit was playing fine, as a whole, offensively. 

Yes, which is why I specifically said in the second half. 

Quote

I'm still sort of shocked that people are asking why someone with a negative AT ratio, as a PG, isn't getting more mins. I mean, it seems incredibly obvious to me why he hasn't playing. 

There's a difference between getting "more" minutes, which insinuates that he's getting some, and not getting any at all, and not even being considered for them. This has to be something more than just A/T ratio and his lack of D, especially when that negative A/T ratio is from such a small sample. He's going to get better, too. He's got good court vision and some other positive attributes, as you noted, he's a decent shooter. 

Quote

Yes., as I've mentioned KL shoots the basketball better than RP does. I cannot argue that, obviously that isn't overvalued by our coaching staff because of the negatives that KL brings.  

Fair enough. I think a part of wanting to see KL play is how hard it is to watch Rob on offense, and it's hard to watch because it looks like it is mostly mental. I also forgot that these guys could play an extra year, though, so getting KL minutes may not be as important if both XJ and Rob stay another year. 

[Billingsley99]

We dominated the number 22 team in the country on their home court where we have not won in 22 years. We just need to figure out to close games out. I said it after Syracuse it's a learning process

[Hoosier987]

19 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

We dominated the number 22 team in the country on their home court where we have not won in 22 years. We just need to figure out to close games out. I said it after Syracuse it's a learning process

In all fairness, this has been a learning process for the better part of 2 decades with the bball program. 

[Billingsley99]

6 minutes ago, Hoosier987 said:

In all fairness, this has been a learning process for the better part of 2 decades with the bball program. 

Not for this staff. Few come in and start beating quality teams with guys that have never won before. 

[Hoosier987]

26 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Not for this staff. Few come in and start beating quality teams with guys that have never won before. 

Let me preface by saying that I really like our staff. I just don’t necessarily agree with this statement and I don’t think our players or coaches would agree either. They would’ve told you we should’ve won this game.
 

Regarding other teams In similar situations…Iowa state has a new staff and have beaten quality opponents with players who have never won before, same with Cincinnati and Arizona. Hell…even Minnesota has. We were up by 22 points….this game shouldn’t have been lost. I hope we learn from this. 
 

Also, keep in mind…regardless of their ranking, this is one of the least quality Wisconsin teams we’ve seen in a long time. We were picked by virtually every preseason prediction with our “new staff and players that have never won before” to be better than Wisconsin. I hope that is the case at the end of the year.

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Hoosier987

[Lostin76]

Really tough loss, but it says a lot that most of us probably never felt comfortable even up 22 points. 

I had luckily walked around the block last night at halftime to get high. That really helped my mood as everything collapsed around me in the second half. I was pretty much in the “well, didn’t expect to win in WI anyway camp at the end.”

Super discouraging, but I’ll still take this year’s product, team, and staff over the last four years. On to the next. 

 

[Billingsley99]

1 minute ago, Hoosier987 said:

Let me preface by saying that I really like our staff. I just don’t necessarily agree with this statement and I don’t think our players or coaches would agree either. They would’ve told you we should’ve won this game. Regarding other teams In similar situations…Iowa state has a new staff and have beaten quality opponents with players who have never won before, same with Cincinnati and Arizona. We were up by 22 points….this game shouldn’t have been lost. I hope we learn from this. 
 

Also, keep in mind…regardless of their ranking, this is one of the least quality Wisconsin teams we’ve seen in a long time. We were picked by virtually every preseason prediction with our “new staff and players that have never won before” to be better than Wisconsin. I hope that is the case at the end of the year.

 

I am not making excuses and neither should the staff or players but it is a process. None of these guys on this team have won. You have to get to the point where you expect to win and that team last night did not expect to win in those last 5 minutes. Wisky has been there and did not fold. We have no one that believed and willed it to happen. 

[Billingsley99]

2 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

Really tough loss, but it says a lot that most of us probably never felt comfortable even up 22 points. 

I had luckily walked around the block last night at halftime to get high. That really helped my mood as everything collapsed around me in the second half. I was pretty much in the “well, didn’t expect to win in WI anyway camp at the end.”

Super discouraging, but I’ll still take this year’s product, team, and staff over the last four years. On to the next. 

 

I said to my family last night that if less than 15 pt lead with 10 to go IU would lose. 

My FIL bet Wisky to win outright at the half. He made some cash last night

[Artesian_86]

1 hour ago, Billingsley99 said:

We dominated the number 22 team in the country on their home court where we have not won in 22 years. We just need to figure out to close games out. I said it after Syracuse it's a learning process

So your done cussin’ at the TV?😆

[Billingsley99]

5 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

So your done cussin’ at the TV?😆

I never gave in just wanted to. I thought a bunch of them though

[Artesian_86]

I know…. Me too. I got two alerts on my Apple Watch during the game.

One saying “ I need to take a few minutes to breathe” and the second one saying “elevated heart rate!” 😳🤣

[Billingsley99]

41 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

I know…. Me too. I got two alerts on my Apple Watch during the game.

One saying “ I need to take a few minutes to breathe” and the second one saying “elevated heart rate!” 😳🤣

My watch said year had to check to see ifbi was still alive. 

[IU Scott]

2 hours ago, AxnJxn said:

Literally no one has said this. But, in a situation where we're playing poor offensively, and we have a guy on the bench who can create some offense, why isn't he not just not getting in the game at all, but not even considered?

Yes, which is why I specifically said in the second half. 

There's a difference between getting "more" minutes, which insinuates that he's getting some, and not getting any at all, and not even being considered for them. This has to be something more than just A/T ratio and his lack of D, especially when that negative A/T ratio is from such a small sample. He's going to get better, too. He's got good court vision and some other positive attributes, as you noted, he's a decent shooter. 

Fair enough. I think a part of wanting to see KL play is how hard it is to watch Rob on offense, and it's hard to watch because it looks like it is mostly mental. I also forgot that these guys could play an extra year, though, so getting KL minutes may not be as important if both XJ and Rob stay another year. 

Lander is probably not seeing the court because of defense and not offense.