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In coming years we'll see Roy Williams, Mike K, Tom Izzo, jim Boeheim retire.  Where are all of the proven, elite coaches going to come from to fill their shoes?  Hiring a new coach is going to almost

On the premise that there just may be a Jimmy Chitwood on the roster, waiting for the opportunity, I've come up with quotes that some of the players might use in place of Jimmy's famous  "I'll ma

Expectations are a bit out of whack here, and this is why... I think what most people want, and thought we were getting in year 2, is a coach that can win with coaching. A coach that doesn't need

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1 hour ago, rico said:

I totally disagree with the "most guys can't" line.  How many more examples do I need to give?  IU is a shining example of this.....Bob Knight, Mike Davis, and Kelvin Sampson.  What were those 3 guys records in their first 2 years?  Look it up.

Yeah, they should fire Archie. Bring in Bennet: 15-16, 16-15 first two years at Virginia or
Marshall: 11–20, 17–17 first two at Wichita State. They'd be killing it right now. Everyone is frustrated with this year, but to say someone would be doing better is pure speculation. Billy Donovan? Maybe. Coach K? Yep. Calipari? Yes. But the other 90% of coaches I am referring? I don't know. 

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16 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

That's kind of my point.  He'll get the benefit of the doubt from the fans as he should.  That's why I wanted a proven commodity.  Archie just isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt.  As our fan base gets restless recruiting will get even harder.  Our rivals are already talking about who they think we'll hire to replace Archie.  Marshall would have gotten a much longer leash from the fans.

I understand what your saying....but after twenty years of frustration I don't think the fan base will give anyone a long leash...this is a basketball state first and foremost and with all the traditions,high school and College we expect more,we know more,we have more passion for the game of basketball then anyone and dammit we want to see it out there on that floor,but we're not and that creates a sense of urgency because every year we hope that it will start to change,new coach,new recruits,new year ...only to be let down again,but it will change...is CAM the one to do it,time will tell...I just hope it's not twenty more till we find out.

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33 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

That's kind of my point.  He'll get the benefit of the doubt from the fans as he should.  That's why I wanted a proven commodity.  Archie just isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt.  As our fan base gets restless recruiting will get even harder.  Our rivals are already talking about who they think we'll hire to replace Archie.  Marshall would have gotten a much longer leash from the fans.

So, if I understand, you are saying a guy who recruited his entire team to his established program, and is currently flailing, should have a longer leash than a guy two years into his tenure playing with a bunch of kids he didn't recruit?  Do you even listen to yourself?  When Marshall struggled previously you were quick to defend him with the injury excuse.  Does your back hurt from the constant flip flopping?

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3 minutes ago, Muddy River said:

So, if I understand, you are saying a guy who recruited his entire team to his established program, and is currently flailing, should have a longer leash than a guy two years into his tenure playing with a bunch of kids he didn't recruit?  Do you even listen to yourself?  When Marshall struggled previously you were quick to defend him with the injury excuse.  Does your back hurt from the constant flip flopping?

I have no idea what you're talking about and I don't think you do either.  Before this season Marshall hadn't struggled in a long, long time.  In the last 8 years Marshall has won the MVC 5 times and he has finished 2nd twice.  Of course he's going to get a pass from the WSU fans for one off year.  

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9 hours ago, iuthruandthru said:

None of these coaches were coaching elite programs at the time of the start.  That could be made a point but duke wasn’t duke and Syracuse was not Syracuse at those times.  All the other progrms were not considered elite.  Let’s see the first 2 years of the likes of Roy at UNC, Self at Kansas, Cal at Kentucky, and others like that and then I think your comparison is reasonable.  Your comparison works for McKracken when IU did not have 5 championships as most of the ones you listed had no history either.  Current high level programs don’t need to wait 5 years to be better. 

What in your mind thinks we are elite?  Because we have 5 banners, in which the last one was won over 30 years ago?  The kids we are recruiting and who are playing on the team right now, weren’t even born then.  Heck most of them were 4 years old or younger in ‘02 when we made that run.  When you’re talking about modern day “blue bloods” IU is often left off of the list, similar to UCLA, even though they have the most championships.  

Im not saying we need to wait 5 years, but to not even give the guy a chance is a little over the top.  I’m disappointed in how the season has went, but I’m willing to see what happens over the next few years.  I truly believe CAM is building the program the right way.  It’s just going to take time (recruiting classes).  Rome wasn’t built in a day.

Also, to your point.  When Coach K took over, Bill Foster had records of 27-7 (NCAA Finalist), 22-8 (Round of 32) and 24-9 (Elite 8) the three seasons before K took over.  That program was in better shape than what Archie took over.

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1 hour ago, StLHoosier said:

What in your mind thinks we are elite?  Because we have 5 banners, in which the last one was won over 30 years ago?  The kids we are recruiting and who are playing on the team right now, weren’t even born then.  Heck most of them were 4 years old or younger in ‘02 when we made that run.  When you’re talking about modern day “blue bloods” IU is often left off of the list, similar to UCLA, even though they have the most championships.  

Im not saying we need to wait 5 years, but to not even give the guy a chance is a little over the top.  I’m disappointed in how the season has went, but I’m willing to see what happens over the next few years.  I truly believe CAM is building the program the right way.  It’s just going to take time (recruiting classes).  Rome wasn’t built in a day.

Also, to your point.  When Coach K took over, Bill Foster had records of 27-7 (NCAA Finalist), 22-8 (Round of 32) and 24-9 (Elite 8) the three seasons before K took over.  That program was in better shape than what Archie took over.

I actually agree with you that IU is no longer elite.  I was trying to make that point by the fact that IMO the athletics dept has enabled this.  The basketball program continues to dig a hole with every bad hire.  If Archie ends up being bad, jury is still out, we could be at the point of meltdown. I think you are actually proving my point To a degree.  Like I said in other posts these kids go to the coaches.  Archie appears to have made good gains here but it would not take much for a high level Coach to get solid recruits to IU.  The more IU goes down the path of the “controllable coach” with every hire the further the basketball team is away from that old elite status.  Not saying that coach can’t succeed but it’s not the direction I would expect from IU.  They don’t want the big name and the program has paid a price for that.

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4 hours ago, OGIUAndy said:

Yeah, they should fire Archie. Bring in Bennet: 15-16, 16-15 first two years at Virginia or
Marshall: 11–20, 17–17 first two at Wichita State. They'd be killing it right now. Everyone is frustrated with this year, but to say someone would be doing better is pure speculation. Billy Donovan? Maybe. Coach K? Yep. Calipari? Yes. But the other 90% of coaches I am referring? I don't know. 

I never said fire him, I am tired of guys talking about certain coaches and what they did in the first 2 years......for every one you name I bet I could name one that hit the ground running.  I have already said a few in this thread.

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3 hours ago, dbmhoosier said:

I have no idea what you're talking about and I don't think you do either.  Before this season Marshall hadn't struggled in a long, long time.  In the last 8 years Marshall has won the MVC 5 times and he has finished 2nd twice.  Of course he's going to get a pass from the WSU fans for one off year.  

It will be interesting to see how Marshall fares in the AAC........they ain't in the Valley anymore.

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None of us follow the programs people are listing for other coaches like we follow IU, so I couldn't care less what other coaches did good or bad.  We didn't watch every game the year before Beilein took over, his first year, his second year, etc.  Where other programs were might not be the same place our program was.

All I know is from the time Archie has been hired until now I expected better results.  They can still come down the road, but from March 25, 2017 until January 23, 2019, the on court progress has been disappointing.  Who cares if Coach K's teams struggled in his first two seasons close to 40 years ago?  We weren't following them like we do IU, so we don't know squat about Duke around that time besides what we read from Google, and maybe a memory here or there from that time.

Archie still has time to turn things around and become the coach we all hope he will be, but last year and this year he hasn't done a great job of getting the team to play to their potential.  

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39 minutes ago, Leathernecks said:

None of us follow the programs people are listing for other coaches like we follow IU, so I couldn't care less what other coaches did good or bad.  We didn't watch every game the year before Beilein took over, his first year, his second year, etc.  Where other programs were might not be the same place our program was.

All I know is from the time Archie has been hired until now I expected better results.  They can still come down the road, but from March 25, 2017 until January 23, 2019, the on court progress has been disappointing.  Who cares if Coach K's teams struggled in his first two seasons close to 40 years ago?  We weren't following them like we do IU, so we don't know squat about Duke around that time besides what we read from Google, and maybe a memory here or there from that time.

Archie still has time to turn things around and become the coach we all hope he will be, but last year and this year he hasn't done a great job of getting the team to play to their potential.  

"Patience grasshopper".  All I got.  LOL

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I can’t believe people are wanting to fire Archie after one an a half seasons. Let look seriously at what was here when he arrived. Only Morgan was the player that played to the big ten level left on the roster. Who could shoot Durham, was probably our best. Only this years Freshman our Archie’s. Of those two have done very well. The others are hurt are need some time they are freshmen. Archie needs to recruit some sharp shooters that for sure. He needs to over recruit if he has to and get ruin of dead weight . The other problem is, I hate this but IU doesn’t draw the drop dead great recruits anymore. Archie is changing that but that takes time. 

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31 minutes ago, Bob said:

I can’t believe people are wanting to fire Archie after one an a half seasons. Let look seriously at what was here when he arrived. Only Morgan was the player that played to the big ten level left on the roster. Who could shoot Durham, was probably our best. Only this years Freshman our Archie’s. Of those two have done very well. The others are hurt are need some time they are freshmen. Archie needs to recruit some sharp shooters that for sure. He needs to over recruit if he has to and get ruin of dead weight . The other problem is, I hate this but IU doesn’t draw the drop dead great recruits anymore. Archie is changing that but that takes time. 

I think most on this site actually don’t want him fired, I think they just expected more into this second season.  The issues on the court appear to be tied way more to than just recruiting.  But if that’s truly it then I will gladly shut up in the next year or even two if that’s all it is.  Very concerned it isn’t.

I also think, justified or not, so many comments that ring of Tom Crean it scares people.  Injuries, recruits, let him get his scheme and time to learn it.  He doesn’t need to change how he coaches to the players he has, instead he needs players that will fit in his system.  Many IU fans are more than once bitten twice shy to these comments.

Wins are the “easy” solution to point out , but more fairly I would take just more games with inspired play like the last 5 minutes of the NW game.  I think that would lead to wins inherently.  Also I would say if IU wants to keep these future high level committed and uncommitted recruits coming to IU time to figure out how to get Romeo going again (if it’s not injury).

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8 minutes ago, Bob said:

I can’t believe people are wanting to fire Archie after one an a half seasons. Let look seriously at what was here when he arrived. Only Morgan was the player that played to the big ten level left on the roster. Who could shoot Durham, was probably our best. Only this years Freshman our Archie’s. Of those two have done very well. The others are hurt are need some time they are freshmen. Archie needs to recruit some sharp shooters that for sure. He needs to over recruit if he has to and get ruin of dead weight . The other problem is, I hate this but IU doesn’t draw the drop dead great recruits anymore. Archie is changing that but that takes time. 

Agree with most of what you are saying Bob. I believe the few people on here that want Archie gone are brand new posters, those who rarely post and only show up during or after a poor performance. The rest of us have been around since when Knight was coaching. I believe the majority of us on here are still behind Archie, given he is only in his second year. Others are becoming impatient with him, but are not ready to throw in the towel.

Finally, "over recruiting" is NOT and never will be how Archie runs his program. Mark my words, when Archie gets a full team of players that he has recruited and fully invested in, we will see the type of team IU fans have desired for years. 

It's not going to be easy, nor will it be quick,....I feel, in 2 years we will not be push overs any more.

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2 minutes ago, iuthruandthru said:

I think most on this site actually don’t want him fired, I think they just expected more into this second season.  The issues on the court appear to be tied way more to than just recruiting.  But if that’s truly it then I will gladly shut up in the next year or even two if that’s all it is.  Very concerned it isn’t.

I also think, justified or not, so many comments that ring of Tom Crean it scares people.  Injuries, recruits, let him get his scheme and time to learn it.  He doesn’t need to change how he coaches to the players he has, instead he needs players that will fit in his system.  Many IU fans are more than once bitten twice shy to these comments.

Wins are the “easy” solution to point out , but more fairly I would take just more games with inspired play like the last 5 minutes of the NW game.  I think that would lead to wins inherently.  Also I would say if IU wants to keep these future high level committed and uncommitted recruits coming to IU time to figure out how to get Romeo going again (if it’s not injury).

Well put!

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In coming years we'll see Roy Williams, Mike K, Tom Izzo, jim Boeheim retire.  Where are all of the proven, elite coaches going to come from to fill their shoes?  Hiring a new coach is going to almost always be a crap-shoot.  None of these coaches were considered unanimous slam-dunk hires (Williams is a special case, being a former player).  Also, none of those guys were immediate world beaters.  Certainly, this doesn't mean Archie will be a HOF coach or a bust - we don't know, nor can we render a verdict at this early juncture.  In 5 years time, who knows, Archie may be kicking ass and taking names and we'll be concerned that one of these schools may try to steal him away or maybe we'll be competing with them for a new guy.

I understand the frustration at our current quality of play, I get it, I'm not happy about it at all.  But, as I've stated before, I really get the sense that CAM knows and sees the same issues we gripe about and he's definitely not stupid - he knows the score.  Finally, despite our displeasure, the people that cut the checks aren't going to send him packing any time in the foreseeable future.  We, as individuals, need to decide how much patience/interest/frustration we have and adjust accordingly - either try to enjoy the rebuild (again,ughh) or don't.  Losing your mind and becoming a miserable, chronic complainer does no one (especially our selves) a bit of good.

Now I'll try to not sprain my ankle stepping off this soapbox...

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Expectations are a bit out of whack here, and this is why...

I think what most people want, and thought we were getting in year 2, is a coach that can win with coaching. A coach that doesn't need "his guys" to win. A coach that can win on both ends of the floor. A coach that doesn't need elite talent to win. Coaches that many would point to that qualify here are: John Belein, Bo Ryan, Tony Bennett, Brad Stevens...Archie while he was at Dayton, Chris Holtman.

Why? Because we have seen IU get beat by inferior talent for years.... On a regular basis. Why? The common answer from fans probably being, "because of coaching". We saw 9 years of bad defense, other coaching and roster management deficiencies. 

The fact is, those coaches didn't just walk in and start winning at a high rate of the bat. They needed their guys. They needed their culture. Holtman walked in to a great situation last year, but look at him now. I don't want to be patient, and I do think we should have won 2 of our last 5, but coach K wasn't "Coach K" in year 1. 

I think the biggest issue is most of our fans felt like we got the Year 4 Michigan version of Belein, or the year 4 Virginia version of Bennett...but on TOP of that, with a star like Romeo + an All-B1G Juwan and a couple of returners that were not highly touted to begin with. We shouldn't lose to anyone except for maybe a one possession loss to Duke and MSU on the road!

What we got... A coach ahead of where Belein and Bennett were inntheirn2nd years. A coach that has reeled in 2 really great recruiting classes. A coach that has actually shown they've game planned for their opponent. Handles himself with class, preaches and instills toughness. Can draw up plays.

The coaches described up top don't really exist in year 1.5. That's the reality. Welcome to it. 

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It's not THAT we're losing it's HOW we're losing...Archie has shown very little coaching ability up to this point. Hell it started off about as horribly as it possibly could've getting destroyed by ISU by 20 in his first game. There have been decent flashes since but my goodness..call a spade a spade. If we miss the tourney (again) this year it is a MASSIVE disappointment.

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10 hours ago, rico said:

I never said fire him, I am tired of guys talking about certain coaches and what they did in the first 2 years......for every one you name I bet I could name one that hit the ground running.  I have already said a few in this thread.

The point is that you need to be patient and let it play out because sometimes if your impatient you will miss out on great things.

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19 minutes ago, cohete15 said:

Expectations are a bit out of whack here, and this is why...

I think what most people want, and thought we were getting in year 2, is a coach that can win with coaching. A coach that doesn't need "his guys" to win. A coach that can win on both ends of the floor. A coach that doesn't need elite talent to win. Coaches that many would point to that qualify here are: John Belein, Bo Ryan, Tony Bennett, Brad Stevens...Archie while he was at Dayton, Chris Holtman.

Why? Because we have seen IU get beat by inferior talent for years.... On a regular basis. Why? The common answer from fans probably being, "because of coaching". We saw 9 years of bad defense, other coaching and roster management deficiencies. 

The fact is, those coaches didn't just walk in and start winning at a high rate of the bat. They needed their guys. They needed their culture. Holtman walked in to a great situation last year, but look at him now. I don't want to be patient, and I do think we should have won 2 of our last 5, but coach K wasn't "Coach K" in year 1. 

I think the biggest issue is most of our fans felt like we got the Year 4 Michigan version of Belein, or the year 4 Virginia version of Bennett...but on TOP of that, with a star like Romeo + an All-B1G Juwan and a couple of returners that were not highly touted to begin with. We shouldn't lose to anyone except for maybe a one possession loss to Duke and MSU on the road!

What we got... A coach ahead of where Belein and Bennett were inntheirn2nd years. A coach that has reeled in 2 really great recruiting classes. A coach that has actually shown they've game planned for their opponent. Handles himself with class, preaches and instills toughness. Can draw up plays.

The coaches described up top don't really exist in year 1.5. That's the reality. Welcome to it. 

How is Archie ahead of where Beilein and Bennett were in their second years? Maybe in recruiting, but certainly not in results on the court.  And I’d be willing to bet Archie has had better players at IU than those two did in their first two years.

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1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

How is Archie ahead of where Beilein and Bennett were in their second years? Maybe in recruiting, but certainly not in results on the court.  And I’d be willing to bet Archie has had better players at IU than those two did in their first two years.

Well, he is ahead in recruiting.

JB: He was 10-22 in his first year. His 2nd year he was 21-14, but 9-9 for 7th place in conference. He went 15-17 in year 3. 

TB: He was an even .500 in his first 2 years, but 8 games UNDER .500 In the ACC in those 2 years. 

This season hasn't completely played out, so maybe he will be about on par with their results, but Archie still had the leg up with recruiting.

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10 minutes ago, cohete15 said:

Well, he is ahead in recruiting.

JB: He was 10-22 in his first year. His 2nd year he was 21-14, but 9-9 for 7th place in conference. He went 15-17 in year 3. 

TB: He was an even .500 in his first 2 years, but 8 games UNDER .500 In the ACC in those 2 years. 

This season hasn't completely played out, so maybe he will be about on par with their results, but Archie still had the leg up with recruiting.

Some of this stuff just continues to repeat itself through these pages.

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