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22 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

GSW was built mostly traditional. Sure, they added KD after having won a title but even then, most of their team was built through the draft. 

Honestly, outside of teams with LeBron on them teams built through the draft have made up the majority if Finals participants the past decade. 

First GS team yes...but they only won that championship because Kevin Love and Kyrie was out hurt. The next year Cleveland won it...so just looking at championships going back to 08 with the forming of the big 3 in Boston...you could say "super teams or star loaded teams" have won 9 out of the last 13 championships with 2 of those 4 wins coming significantly due to injuries in the finals and 1 of the 4 being one of the biggest upsets in nba finals history (Dallas over Miami). Winning the championship largely due to building teams the organic way I wouldn't say is the norm over the last dozen years or so. San Antonio really is the poster boy for that and its been a long minute since then and I would say that was the last team to really do it without significant luck. Which is why I think it would be good for the nba to have that situation happen again. Otherwise if it is say Brooklyn....your going to have teams continue to load up on super stars...sit them basically the whole season (load management) and then turn it on in the playoffs.

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2 hours ago, dgambill said:

First GS team yes...but they only won that championship because Kevin Love and Kyrie was out hurt. The next year Cleveland won it...so just looking at championships going back to 08 with the forming of the big 3 in Boston...you could say "super teams or star loaded teams" have won 9 out of the last 13 championships with 2 of those 4 wins coming significantly due to injuries in the finals and 1 of the 4 being one of the biggest upsets in nba finals history (Dallas over Miami). Winning the championship largely due to building teams the organic way I wouldn't say is the norm over the last dozen years or so. San Antonio really is the poster boy for that and its been a long minute since then and I would say that was the last team to really do it without significant luck. Which is why I think it would be good for the nba to have that situation happen again. Otherwise if it is say Brooklyn....your going to have teams continue to load up on super stars...sit them basically the whole season (load management) and then turn it on in the playoffs.

We will have to agree to disagree. I can't put GSW in the same category as the LeBron teams when three of their top four players were homegrown talent every year. They went and did exactly what we said other teams need to do when they are close with homegrown talent and make a splash to put them over the top. GSW never was a bought and paid for Super Team in any way, shape, or form IMO. They were honestly just as homegrown as the Raptors who you specifically called out as a homegrown team. 

Edit: also don't think it's remotely fair to the first Dubs title team to say they got lucky with injuries. They could have easily beaten the Cavs without injuries. You're also ignoring they won 73 games the next year without KD. That group was incredibly special, with or without KD. 

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4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

We will have to agree to disagree. I can't put GSW in the same category as the LeBron teams when three of their top four players were homegrown talent every year. They went and did exactly what we said other teams need to do when they are close with homegrown talent and make a splash to put them over the top. GSW never was a bought and paid for Super Team in any way, shape, or form IMO. They were honestly just as homegrown as the Raptors who you specifically called out as a homegrown team. 

We can disagree. No worries. The raptors pulled off a savy trade with SA giving up an all star player for another star. GS lucked into the craziest one time scenario with the freaky cap situation that year when it jumped way up and was able to acquire a once in a generation FA who instead of continuing to lead his team joined up with a cast of stars. I mean come on that was a super team formation in the final iteration if there ever was one. It's possible they could have won a championship without Durant for sure...but in the end they couldn't beat Lebron at full strength with his super team and then they had to go get the ultimate assassin KD to put them over the top. "Super teams" are still very much en vogue...I'm hoping some of these other teams can finally put an end to them and guys can realize that they don't have to join up to form a super team to win a championship...and it can be done by staying with their original organizations. Of course just my opinion and I fully respect yours.

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23 minutes ago, dgambill said:

We can disagree. No worries. The raptors pulled off a savy trade with SA giving up an all star player for another star. GS lucked into the craziest one time scenario with the freaky cap situation that year when it jumped way up and was able to acquire a once in a generation FA who instead of continuing to lead his team joined up with a cast of stars. I mean come on that was a super team formation in the final iteration if there ever was one. It's possible they could have won a championship without Durant for sure...but in the end they couldn't beat Lebron at full strength with his super team and then they had to go get the ultimate assassin KD to put them over the top. "Super teams" are still very much en vogue...I'm hoping some of these other teams can finally put an end to them and guys can realize that they don't have to join up to form a super team to win a championship...and it can be done by staying with their original organizations. Of course just my opinion and I fully respect yours.

Leaving the KD part out of it because I don't think it's reasonable to say you're a Super Team just because only one of your top 4 players is from outside the organization (this is true of literally every team left in the playoffs, and I'm thinking you'd be hard pressed to find an NBA team without one top four player that they didn't draft) they did win a championship without KD and were up 3-1 for a second and capping off what would've been arguably the best season ever until Draymond got suspended. 

And then it took two of the better individual plays (Kyrie shot, LeBron block) to beat them in Game 7. So yeah, the Warriors proved you don't need a major free agent acquisition to win multiple titles IMO. 

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Here's an interesting trade:

Celts trade Kemba and Jaylen Brown, Pacers trade Turner, Warren, and Brogdon. 

The salaries work. Might need to add a pick somewhere, but I actually think that could make both teams better. 

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2 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Here's an interesting trade:

Celts trade Kemba and Jaylen Brown, Pacers trade Turner, Warren, and Brogdon. 

The salaries work. Might need to add a pick somewhere, but I actually think that could make both teams better. 

I don’t think the Celtics are coming off Brown for anything less than a superstar (Lillard/Beal). Could be wrong and that could have changed under Stevens but under Ainge I don’t think it would happen. I mean I’m sure he was part of the AD discussions a couple years ago and it didn’t happen then. I’m starting to wonder what real trade value Myles Turner has in all honesty. You’ve heard about him in trades for last 3 years...to everyone and yet Pacers haven’t moved him? Part of me thinks it’s the Pacers trying to manufacture trade value for him by linking him to every team. 

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1 hour ago, dgambill said:

I don’t think the Celtics are coming off Brown for anything less than a superstar (Lillard/Beal). Could be wrong and that could have changed under Stevens but under Ainge I don’t think it would happen. I mean I’m sure he was part of the AD discussions a couple years ago and it didn’t happen then. I’m starting to wonder what real trade value Myles Turner has in all honesty. You’ve heard about him in trades for last 3 years...to everyone and yet Pacers haven’t moved him? Part of me thinks it’s the Pacers trying to manufacture trade value for him by linking him to every team. 

I don't really see how else the Celtics are getting off of Kemba's contract if they aren't willing to make a big move like that. How else are they getting someone to take over $30m/year for Kemba? I just don't see them running it back, could be wrong. 

I agree with @BGleas that Turner isn't that much better than Williams, but I do think Brogdon at point at Warren as another wing scorer to replace Brown who isn't nearly as ball dominant would fit better. Then with Williams and Turner you just have added depth and can make sure you always have a shot blocker on the floor, since neither of those guys can really play more than 30 minutes. 

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2 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I don't really see how else the Celtics are getting off of Kemba's contract if they aren't willing to make a big move like that. How else are they getting someone to take over $30m/year for Kemba? I just don't see them running it back, could be wrong. 

I agree with @BGleas that Turner isn't that much better than Williams, but I do think Brogdon at point at Warren as another wing scorer to replace Brown who isn't nearly as ball dominant would fit better. Then with Williams and Turner you just have added depth and can make sure you always have a shot blocker on the floor, since neither of those guys can really play more than 30 minutes. 

No one thought someone would take the John Wall contract....the Chris Paul one..Russell Westbrook. They can move him....they just may have to take an equally bad contract in return...or maybe they give the Knicks who have a ton of cap space a young asset and a pick to do it...if dumping him is the priority.

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12 hours ago, dgambill said:

 I’m starting to wonder what real trade value Myles Turner has in all honesty. You’ve heard about him in trades for last 3 years...to everyone and yet Pacers haven’t moved him? Part of me thinks it’s the Pacers trying to manufacture trade value for him by linking him to every team. 

Per HOOPRUMORS:

 

Prior to the 2021 trade deadline, J. Michael of The Indianapolis Star reported that the Hornets, Lakers, Clippers, Knicks, and Pelicans were among the teams to express interest in Pacers big man Myles Turner. With Turner possibly available again this summer in trade talks, many of those teams could renew their interest in the NBA’s shot-blocking leader.

Exploring that possibility, Michael tweets that the Hornets and Timberwolves are the teams that seem to “really” want Turner. Michael speculates (via Twitter) that Charlotte would be the team most likely to make an aggressive trade offer for the 25-year-old if the Pacers are willing to move him.

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16 minutes ago, rico said:

Per HOOPRUMORS:

 

Prior to the 2021 trade deadline, J. Michael of The Indianapolis Star reported that the Hornets, Lakers, Clippers, Knicks, and Pelicans were among the teams to express interest in Pacers big man Myles Turner. With Turner possibly available again this summer in trade talks, many of those teams could renew their interest in the NBA’s shot-blocking leader.

Exploring that possibility, Michael tweets that the Hornets and Timberwolves are the teams that seem to “really” want Turner. Michael speculates (via Twitter) that Charlotte would be the team most likely to make an aggressive trade offer for the 25-year-old if the Pacers are willing to move him.

1st rd 2021 pick, Rozier and either Bridges or PJ Washington for Myles and Aaron.  That moves the needle for me and would be hard for any of the teams above to beat IMO.   Then combine your two late lottery picks and move up if you love someone.  If not, this draft has good talent through the mid teens so Indy could get two really good players.   Now of course if the Knicks came offering Barrett and something else that intrigues me.

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2 hours ago, rico said:

Per HOOPRUMORS:

 

Prior to the 2021 trade deadline, J. Michael of The Indianapolis Star reported that the Hornets, Lakers, Clippers, Knicks, and Pelicans were among the teams to express interest in Pacers big man Myles Turner. With Turner possibly available again this summer in trade talks, many of those teams could renew their interest in the NBA’s shot-blocking leader.

Exploring that possibility, Michael tweets that the Hornets and Timberwolves are the teams that seem to “really” want Turner. Michael speculates (via Twitter) that Charlotte would be the team most likely to make an aggressive trade offer for the 25-year-old if the Pacers are willing to move him.

I just wonder how strong that interest really is. If there was strong offers out there no doubt we would have moved Myles already in my mind. I really do feel like that is Pacers organization is using rumors of all these teams interested (even if they just got 2nd rd trade plus mediocre player trade offers which to me is not "real" interest) to try to drum up some type of bidding for him.

If Prichard can get the kind of value that we have been tossing around at this point I will be pleasantly surprised. The longer these rumors have gone on (like 3 years now) the more I'm starting to think I'm over valuing Myles. He is on a nice contract and he has a special skill (blocking/altering shots) but the rest of his game hasn't really advanced. He shoots 3's just kind ok for a big...but it hasn't really gone to the next level with it. He get's bullied by bigger 5's in the post. He isn't especially strong rebounder. He is starter quality but I'm wondering if his real return will be anything that would help us significantly which is why we just keep him.

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14 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I don't really see how else the Celtics are getting off of Kemba's contract if they aren't willing to make a big move like that. How else are they getting someone to take over $30m/year for Kemba? I just don't see them running it back, could be wrong. 

I agree with @BGleas that Turner isn't that much better than Williams, but I do think Brogdon at point at Warren as another wing scorer to replace Brown who isn't nearly as ball dominant would fit better. Then with Williams and Turner you just have added depth and can make sure you always have a shot blocker on the floor, since neither of those guys can really play more than 30 minutes. 

I don't see a scenario where the Celtics give up Jaylen Brown for anything less than another star player. They're not giving up a 24 year old all-star that averages 25ppg just to get rid of Kemba's contract. Someone will take Kemba's contract. 

As @dgambill, there's always someone willing to take a bad contract. It's been done with Wall, Westbrook, Chris Paul, etc, etc. 

But if the Celtics move Brown, it will be to bring in another star that just fits better with Tatum. 

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6 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I don't see a scenario where the Celtics give up Jaylen Brown for anything less than another star player. They're not giving up a 24 year old all-star that averages 25ppg just to get rid of Kemba's contract. Someone will take Kemba's contract. 

As @dgambill, there's always someone willing to take a bad contract. It's been done with Wall, Westbrook, Chris Paul, etc, etc. 

But if the Celtics move Brown, it will be to bring in another star that just fits better with Tatum. 

Would the Celts take a stab at Lillard?

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10 minutes ago, rico said:

Would the Celts take a stab at Lillard?

I think they absolutely will. They might not have the assets, but some package of Brown, Langford/Nesmith, and picks could be an offer. 

They might have to throw in Smart or Robert Williams as well, but I'd think Stevens would try to avoid that. 

Edit: I'm not saying the Celtics would have the best offer, just saying I'm sure they'll try if he's truly available. 

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5 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I don't see a scenario where the Celtics give up Jaylen Brown for anything less than another star player. They're not giving up a 24 year old all-star that averages 25ppg just to get rid of Kemba's contract. Someone will take Kemba's contract. 

As @dgambill, there's always someone willing to take a bad contract. It's been done with Wall, Westbrook, Chris Paul, etc, etc. 

But if the Celtics move Brown, it will be to bring in another star that just fits better with Tatum. 

Agreed. I can see because you having your star be two wings that can be an issue. I mean LA hasn't figured it out with Kawhi and PG yet. New Orleans is having issues balancing Ingram and Zion. It would be one thing if your star is more a point forward ala Lebron but that isn't so much the case. So I could see the difficulty in a guard dominate league in trying to tie your future to two wings but you just can't give up special talent like Brown unless you are bringing back really special talent....ala Bradley Beal/KAT/Lillard...that said I wonder @BGleas I wonder what you think about this deal...

Jaylen Brown for CJ McCollum, Nassir Little + future 1st....alot of incentive for Portland to shake up their roster....they get younger wing (but one that could fit into their future if they decide to move Lillard later) and you guys get a legit sg that you can pair nicely with Smart (assuming you move Walker). If you think you are ready to win now...that is a move that could do that...but I get the feeling you guys are looking at Brooklyn and thinking the window is more in a couple years and if that is the case you hang on to Brown. To me the only trade for a star then that would do both is KAT.....you could move Brown and Williams plus a future first for KAT and they look to build around their youth movement in Minnesota. ( I think they only do that if KAT pulls an AD).

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23 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I think they absolutely will. They might not have the assets, but some package of Brown, Langford/Nesmith, and picks could be an offer. 

They might have to throw in Smart or Robert Williams as well, but I'd think Stevens would try to avoid that. 

Edit: I'm not saying the Celtics would have the best offer, just saying I'm sure they'll try if he's truly available. 

With Portland looking to sell the team...I get the feeling they will keep Lillard to help with their valuation. Teams I just don't think will part with super star players unless they are forced to. I would guess Beal would be easier to pry away from Washington than Lillard from Portland.

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See this is the problem I have with Indy. Any trades for guys that help right now....do any of them give them a real legit shot to get past Brooklyn/Milwaulkie/Philly?? If not...then I think you need to expand your views and look at the future and where you want to be in 3 years....I HATE shortsighted planning.....year to year stuff. Have a big VISION!! I think the Pacers could absolutely run it back with some tweeks with the roster and guys they have and land a 4-5 seed. With the teams I mentioned and teams that should get better (Atlanta/Boston/Miami)....I mean what window is not there right at this moment. I think you leverage your assets and get lots of controllable young players/picks and work towards 2024 etc. 

I kind of look at Boston and think the same thing...unless you are landing a player like KAT who is 25 and should have 6-7 prime more years...why make a move even for Lillard....do you really think if you gut your whole team Lillard plus Tatum and bunch of low level vets and unproven young guys will put you over the top. Will you be able to guard Embid? Are you honestly better than KD, Kyrie, Harden, Harris? Hmm...you really have to think about a plan and where you want to be in a few years...will that mega trade still allow you to compete when your window is really wide open? Boston has a lot of guys that their time line really matches up right now being a couple years away. Do you really want to try to move that up dramatically by giving up a star whose future has probably 10 more years for one that probably has closer to 3? I think in the West....there are a ton of good teams whose window is WIDE OPEN. Adding a piece or landing a mega star can put you over the top...but in the East...even though the bottom of the league is bad...at the top if you aren't one of the final 4 teams left right now...will a deal put you in the ECF next year....and I gotta say that is debatable depending on what you have to give up.

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To me the team that should be making a move for Lillard is the 76ers. Moving Simmons plus a couple young guys and picks. Embid's body is not one such he will play at a high level for another 8-9 years imo. I think your window is now...the next 5 years with him. Embid, Harris, Lillard plus tough defensive minded guys....I think that is a championship caliber team.

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17 minutes ago, dgambill said:

To me the team that should be making a move for Lillard is the 76ers. Moving Simmons plus a couple young guys and picks. Embid's body is not one such he will play at a high level for another 8-9 years imo. I think your window is now...the next 5 years with him. Embid, Harris, Lillard plus tough defensive minded guys....I think that is a championship caliber team.

I definitely think that's a championship caliber team if they're not already one. I'm really interested to see if the roster tweaks they've made plus Doc Rivers is enough to make the Simmons/Embiid combo a championship combo, or if they need the type of shake up you mentioned. 

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16 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I felt like Toronto was going to shop him this summer...that’s probably out the window.

Toronto is in a really interesting spot. They have a nice core, but they absolutely need a superstar to get back to competing at the top of the East and I'm not sure where they get it. 

I'll give them a pass for this year, they probably had a tougher go of the weird circumstances than anybody. 

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1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

Toronto is in a really interesting spot. They have a nice core, but they absolutely need a superstar to get back to competing at the top of the East and I'm not sure where they get it. 

I'll give them a pass for this year, they probably had a tougher go of the weird circumstances than anybody. 

Most definitely. Siakam just hasn’t taken that next step. Looked like he was becoming a young Kawhi but he didn’t. Lowry is at that point where he is diminishing pretty quickly. Maybe one, two years where he could help a contender. Toronto is further than that away. Siakam is a weird one too. Don’t think he is a super star...primary guy. Almost kind of falls in that Derozen thing all over again.  Like you said have to land a superstar to really make it work. I thought they may take a chance and do the Porzingis deal with Dallas and swap stars...both are probably over paid and neither fit their current teams needs the most as is. Hard to say what they will do. They’ve had a pretty good front office so we will see.

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