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36 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Amen brother, just can't believe how the mentality of our fan base has changed over the years.

Because the times have changed.  I do not consider certain things to be cheating anymore when everyone is doing them.  Creighton was named in that FBI investigation...speaking of which, other than having a few assistants get fired, what has been the repercussion of that for any of the programs listed?  Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, Louisville....they are all over the Top 25 and have been.  Furthermore, the activity they are engaged in is about to become completely legal.  Once the NCAA allows for players to be compensated, you are going to want a program that has the ability to put kids in touch with sources to make money.  We have to start preparing for a time where a player like TJD is cutting commercials for Ken Nunn (as an example) and getting $10,000 for the advertising campaign.  That is the direction this is going, it is all about to become legal, so may as well get out in front of it.  You know what else we need to do?  Get names on the back of the jerseys so players can get a cut of their jersey sales.  Remember the barnstorming tours that Knight's kid used to do?  Bring them on back and write the kids a paycheck.  

We are not saying to blatantly cheat, we are saying that there is an area that exists between following the letter of the law and blatantly cheating.  I believe that all of the teams that are viewed as "elite" that we were on par with in the early 90's have been operating in that zone since then.  I believe we have gone the choir boy route...no speeding allowed...and it, along with bad coaching hires, has hurt our program.  It was mentioned before that othe BIG coaches are afraid of what Indiana could do if we got on board with everyone else.  I say we get on board and see what happens.  I am not in the category of preferring to lose because we are adhering to some gentleman's agreement that has not truly existed or been followed by anyone else that matters for over 20 years.  This is entertainment for me, I want to be entertained and if that is what it takes, so be it.

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5 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Because the times have changed.  I do not consider certain things to be cheating anymore when everyone is doing them.  Creighton was named in that FBI investigation...speaking of which, other than having a few assistants get fired, what has been the repercussion of that for any of the programs listed?  Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, Louisville....they are all over the Top 25 and have been.  Furthermore, the activity they are engaged in is about to become completely legal.  Once the NCAA allows for players to be compensated, you are going to want a program that has the ability to put kids in touch with sources to make money.  We have to start preparing for a time where a player like TJD is cutting commercials for Ken Nunn (as an example) and getting $10,000 for the advertising campaign.  That is the direction this is going, it is all about to become legal, so may as well get out in front of it.  You know what else we need to do?  Get names on the back of the jerseys so players can get a cut of their jersey sales.  Remember the barnstorming tours that Knight's kid used to do?  Bring them on back and write the kids a paycheck.  

We are not saying to blatantly cheat, we are saying that there is an area that exists between following the letter of the law and blatantly cheating.  I believe that all of the teams that are viewed as "elite" that we were on par with in the early 90's have been operating in that zone since then.  I believe we have gone the choir boy route...no speeding allowed...and it, along with bad coaching hires, has hurt our program.  It was mentioned before that othe BIG coaches are afraid of what Indiana could do if we got on board with everyone else.  I say we get on board and see what happens.  I am not in the category of preferring to lose because we are adhering to some gentleman's agreement that has not truly existed or been followed by anyone else that matters for over 20 years.  This is entertainment for me, I want to be entertained and if that is what it takes, so be it.

Once those are the rules then fine but right no=know they are not so I don't want IU involved with those kind of activities.  The activity like Rico brought up with Zion and his family getting a house because what they did was a lot like money laundering.

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2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Once those are the rules then fine but right no=know they are not so I don't want IU involved with those kind of activities.  The activity like Rico brought up with Zion and his family getting a house because what they did was a lot like money laundering.

With zero repercussions

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1 minute ago, CincyHoosier said:

With zero repercussions

So what, still don't want IU cheating.  So if you have a kid and he comes home and says that all of friends are robbing banks and not getting caught so I am going to rob banks as well.  Do you say go ahead since they have not been caught yet.

Also I think cheating was as rampant back in the 70's yet RMK never stooped to that level and was still able to win big.

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1 hour ago, Seeking6 said:

I'll be a broken record on apathy until it changes. It's setting in.....and if it's setting in for the message board IU fans what is it doing to your casual fan? Or maybe they have it right....not being emotionally invested as much makes being a fan so much easier. 

Most of the people I talk IU basketball about....well they are now the people I USED to talk IU basketball about.  Hell, my dad NEVER even mentions them to me anymore.  Apathy is real, and it is a BIG DEAL.  So many die hard fans have died hard or are in the process of dying...well their fandom at least.  I cant blame them.

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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Amen brother, just can't believe how the mentality of our fan base has changed over the years.

While I share your position regarding maintaining integrity in our basketball program, keep in mind that the "mentality change" over the last 20 years that you reference has come during years of losing more than we are accustomed to.  It was all too easy for the masses to puff out their collective chests about IU doing it the RIGHT way when we were dominating the sport.  

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12 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Once those are the rules then fine but right no=know they are not so I don't want IU involved with those kind of activities.  The activity like Rico brought up with Zion and his family getting a house because what they did was a lot like money laundering.

The NCAA was asking for rules to be drawn up by January of 2021.  That is next year.  Any AD and coach that is not preparing for the new paradigm is not doing their job.  Indiana cannot afford to be a late adopter of this model, as others are mentioning, this program is starting to bleed fan support.  Let me tell you as someone who has cut way back on the amount of live games he watches, it gets easier and easier to find other things to do.

Call me fair weather or whatever, but I watch sports for enjoyment.  I rarely have enjoyed the product IU has put out for the past 20 years.  If not for my attachment to the school, I would have completely given up years ago...and I am the type of person who posts about them on a web forum.  I am a die hard.  What do you think is happening to the casual fans, many who never went to IU?

We need to change.

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22 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

The NCAA was asking for rules to be drawn up by January of 2021.  That is next year.  Any AD and coach that is not preparing for the new paradigm is not doing their job.  Indiana cannot afford to be a late adopter of this model, as others are mentioning, this program is starting to bleed fan support.  Let me tell you as someone who has cut way back on the amount of live games he watches, it gets easier and easier to find other things to do.

Call me fair weather or whatever, but I watch sports for enjoyment.  I rarely have enjoyed the product IU has put out for the past 20 years.  If not for my attachment to the school, I would have completely given up years ago...and I am the type of person who posts about them on a web forum.  I am a die hard.  What do you think is happening to the casual fans, many who never went to IU?

We need to change.

So what can IU do when they are recruiting these players once the new rules about likeness is implemented.  Can they already have deals in place for players and have that as a sales pitch or will they have to do it once the players are signed.

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16 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

So what can IU do when they are recruiting these players once the new rules about likeness is implemented.  Can they already have deals in place for players and have that as a sales pitch or will they have to do it once the players are signed.

I would say it is kind of the wild west on that right now...that is the type of gray area that we would be talking about.  I would start talking to the people you plan on connecting these new recruits to.  Not illegal to talk if money is not exchanged.

Also, add names to jerseys and start making your plans clear to potential athletes.  Take a guy like Langford, you think that there would have been money to be made in the state of Indiana off of his likeness before he got here?  It was not UK and UL fans lining up to see that kid.  Hey Romeo, we'll give you a dollar from every jersey we sell with your name on it.  Do that for every kid.  Nothing to stop a booster from buying 2,000 jerseys and "donating" them to charity.  They get a tax write off and that student athlete pockets $2,000.  That is the type of thing that is coming and it will all be legal.  I want to get in front of that.

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3 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I would say it is kind of the wild west on that right now...that is the type of gray area that we would be talking about.  I would start talking to the people you plan on connecting these new recruits to.  Not illegal to talk if money is not exchanged.

Also, add names to jerseys and start making your plans clear to potential athletes.  Take a guy like Langford, you think that there would have been money to be made in the state of Indiana off of his likeness before he got here?  It was not UK and UL fans lining up to see that kid.  Hey Romeo, we'll give you a dollar from every jersey we sell with your name on it.  Do that for every kid.  Nothing to stop a booster from buying 2,000 jerseys and "donating" them to charity.  They get a tax write off and that student athlete pockets $2,000.  That is the type of thing that is coming and it will all be legal.  I want to get in front of that.

I have no problem with the name on the jersey so that would be a good idea

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58 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

So what, still don't want IU cheating.  So if you have a kid and he comes home and says that all of friends are robbing banks and not getting caught so I am going to rob banks as well.  Do you say go ahead since they have not been caught yet.

Also I think cheating was as rampant back in the 70's yet RMK never stooped to that level and was still able to win big.

False equivalency. More accurate would be the authorities don’t care to stop them from robbing banks. 
 

Essentially cheating in college sports is the equivalent to jay walking and if you went to IU there’s no way you haven’t jaywalked. The cops don’t care so it’s not really a crime. 

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2 hours ago, eddy4iu said:

While I share your position regarding maintaining integrity in our basketball program, keep in mind that the "mentality change" over the last 20 years that you reference has come during years of losing more than we are accustomed to.  It was all too easy for the masses to puff out their collective chests about IU doing it the RIGHT way when we were dominating the sport.  

Love this post. 100% spot on.

Also, as other pointed out, the landscape of college basketball has changed dramatically in the past 10 years or so. 

And while I want those in charge of the program to maintain its integrity like you do, Scott (no hookers or blatently paying underneath the table) I don't want IU at a competitive disadvantage cloaked in some overly puritanical thinking.

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9 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Love this post. 100% spot on.

Also, as other pointed out, the landscape of college basketball has changed dramatically in the past 10 years or so. 

And while I want those in charge of the program to maintain its integrity like you do, Scott (no hookers or blatently paying underneath the table) I don't want IU at a competitive disadvantage cloaked in some overly puritanical thinking.

How far are you willing to go for us to win.  Are you alright bringing in players like Sampson brought in. Ones who did not care to go to class and was suspended for not passing drug test.  Are you alright setting up families in hoses that might not be totally against the rules but it is like money laundering.

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1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

How far are you willing to go for us to win.  Are you alright bringing in players like Sampson brought in. Ones who did not care to go to class and was suspended for not passing drug test.  Are you alright setting up families in hoses that might not be totally against the rules but it is like money laundering.

Our current team captain was suspended last season for failing a drug test, right?  You must want Archie gone.

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5 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Our current team captain was suspended last season for failing a drug test, right?  You must want Archie gone.

I sure wanted green gone after that but that was the only case so far under Archie.  If it becomes a problem like it was with Sampson and Crean then yes Archie should go.  After all of those off the court stuff under Crean I wanted him gone.

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2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I sure wanted green gone after that but that was the only case so far under Archie.  If it becomes a problem like it was with Sampson and Crean then yes Archie should go.  After all of those off the court stuff under Crean I wanted him gone.

You wanted Crean gone?  😂

 

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11 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Our current team captain was suspended last season for failing a drug test, right?  You must want Archie gone.

To be fair, from rumors, the Sampson player issue went much, much deeper than that.

To answer Scott's question, I would want the players to behave like they generally have at IU.  Go to class, generally keep nose clean, that type of thing.

As far as the house thing goes, we find a way to legally and per NCAA rules get the money and they can do with it as they wish.  I would love to see IU leverage the business school to provide like an "advanced personal finance" type of class too.  Something to give the guys an idea of how to manage the money they should earn, whether that be NBA millions or the hundreds of thousands they can make playing overseas.

I just want to see some outside of the box thinking start to take hold at Indiana.  We should be a "cool" program to attend.  We have quite a few of the things needed to be that, we just need to address some things that probably hold us back.

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6 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

You wanted Crean gone?  😂

 

I guaranteed I posted on your favorite site stating that exact same thing.  After the Perea and Davis incident I called for Glass to fire him.  Also you know that I defended Crean because I did not like the personal attacks he got over on rivals but had no problem critiquing his coaching.  I have said many times as long as the coach is still coaching IU I will back him and root for the team to win and that is all I did.  I never thought he was a great coach but was a lot better than you and your  friends over there thought.

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While I think Bruce Pearl is a good coach and comes across as a sincere and good guy, I think it'd be a bridge too far to think IU would hire him.  Whether his fact pattern is different or not from Sampson's, the embarrassment of that cluster-fiasco would make our administration very reluctant to go anywhere near somebody like that, even if a BBQ violation is a variation on the bumper sticker concept.  I am not judging whether it is morally right or wrong (we'd be better on the floor), but just giving my view that he likely wouldn't be considered.

But I couldn't agree more with the idea that our AD department and administration need to stop being naive and a hindrance and start advocating for athletics.  This is doubly important as we have a great opportunity for marketing players.  With the Kelly School of Business being one of the crown jewels of the campus, you'd think we would have expertise to navigate these waters.  Under our current administration and path, of course we would fall woefully behind, to the delight of the rest of the B1G.  The structural problems need to be fixed lest we all be growling from our retirement rocking chairs about the good old days forever and ever.

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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

How far are you willing to go for us to win.  Are you alright bringing in players like Sampson brought in. Ones who did not care to go to class and was suspended for not passing drug test.  Are you alright setting up families in hoses that might not be totally against the rules but it is like money laundering.

I just said, keep the integrity of the program intact.

But from what I've read on other sites and input from some of the posters here, we can't remain competitive if we're operating in a 1 acre pen and everybody else is in a 10 acre field.

No rule breaking, but explore the "gray areas" instead of being totally restrictive.

And while I think Kelvin Sampson went to the extreme in who he would and wouldn't take as player, I do believe in redemption and giving a kid who's had problems a chance. Set the rules and as long as they comply, fine...if they don't, show them the door...

Sampson's problem was he was making those kinds of kids the culture of the program...

Edited by IUFLA
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1 hour ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I just want to see some outside of the box thinking start to take hold at Indiana.  We should be a "cool" program to attend.  We have quite a few of the things needed to be that, we just need to address some things that probably hold us back.

I agree with almost everything you've said, but at the end of the day the paragraph above is the crux of the issue for me. I want IU to have a forward thinking, creative athletic department/basketball program. My impression of IU's athletic department currently is one that is old and antiquated. I go back to Glass' retirement press conference and the thing he said he was most proud of was "doing it the right way". Doing it the right way is fine and good, but it should be a footnote, not the lead. 

People can hate Cal, Coach K, Bill Self, etc., etc., all they want, but the bottom line is those guys have created programs that support players, support their goals and dreams, and programs that players want to play for. They have the best facilities, the best player housing, the best nutritionists, trainers, etc., and they train players for life after basketball.

I'm not saying I want IU to be a one and done factory, but I want IU to be a program that kids are dying to play for. IU should absolutely have every piece already in place to maximize the name/likeness bill once it's law. Hit the ground running. But, I doubt they are. 

Look at MSU (take all the other issues out of it), their athletic director is the one that came up with the idea of playing games on a naval ship. I'm not saying I want IU playing on a naval ship, but let's get some exciting creative ideas. Instead, IU is turning down games against UK because we have to cover our nut with a certain amount of home games, so we can't add more neutral court games. IU is turning down the showcase that's in a different major city each year with UNC, UCLA and I think Texas (maybe Florida, can't remember) because we have to play in the boring Crossroads Classic. 

Once we couldn't agree with UK, IU should have been brainstorming and developing some showcase that would make UK jelous they weren't in it. Instead, we add an extra home game against Western Texas Community College. 

I'm tired of IU being viewed and operating like an old, antiquated operation. 

 

Edited by BGleas
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On 1/5/2020 at 10:31 AM, BGleas said:

I’m not advocating for firing Archie. I like Archie. I think he can coach and I’d love for him to be ‘the guy’. I really do think he’s the kind of coach that IU fans can love and would love, but I just really worry that the momentum is dangerously close to being lost. I’m really beginning to feel like I felt during Crean’s last year when the team was losing, wasn’t fun to watch, and Crean had missed out on the 2017 class (the class with Scruggs and the kid that went to UCLA, right?). 

I know we haven’t missed the tournament yet and there is still time to turn it around, and I know Archie hasn’t missed on the 2021 class yet, but I feel like this is where we are trending. 

Again, I really like Archie and I want him to succeed, but I just don’t see how this team all of the sudden starts making shots. I don’t see how our guards all of the sudden become good, aggressive, confident and disciplined. I don’t see our guards all of the sudden knocking down shots and being better than other Big Ten backcourt consistently. I like our 2020 class, though worry there isn’t a headliner, but I also don’t see guards or wings in the pipeline that rectify these issues next season. 

So again, I like Archie, I think he can coach and I think he could be ‘the guy’, but if how I’m feeling about this team currently goes the way I think it will, and same for next, I just don’t see how he possible recovers from that. If IU misses the tournament this season, I don’t see us landing more than one of the “big 3” in the 2021class, and possibly missing all 3  

If this season plays out the way I see it playing out, which isn’t a given, then Archie is going to have to make some major changes heading into next season. The status quo won’t work. 

This is exactly where I’m at. Great post. 

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5 hours ago, CincyHoosier said:

With zero repercussions

No repercussions because Duke did a complete and thorough investigation (LOL, LOL, LOL) and found no wrong doing.

If the NCAA wasn’t so sad it would almost be funny. There was a lot of noise that Zion’s family moved to a $1,000,000+ development in Durham and rather than the NCAA getting involved Duke says....hey, you don’t have to bother because we will look into it and let you know if we did anything wrong. The whole compliance aspect of big time sports is a bigger mockery than ever.  

Edited by IU878176
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BGleas: If this season plays out the way I see it playing out, which isn’t a given, then Archie is going to have to make some major changes heading into next season. The status quo won’t work. 

I agree, but we're close to ½ way thru this season. Why wait until next year to make major changes? Isn't that what "Depth" is for? Use the bench as a motivator or punishment when you play bad Devonte ball, or take possessions off, or, or, or...

Make the most change you can NOW, given what you have to work with. Archie isn't doing that IMO.

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