IPFW post game

[5fouls]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

I just can't do that because no matter how bad we play or upset I get I will still watch every game.  To me if I can't stick with this team during the bad times then I don't deserve to come back when things get better so I will be watching Thursday night.

I'm not saying I won't watch them.  But, I won't schedule the rest of my life around the games.  I used to do that.  And, I can honestly say this, for the first time ever in my life  Given the choice between watching a Pacers game or an IU game, I'm going to choose Pacers.  And, I still can't believe it's gotten to the point that I'm typing that.

[Reacher]

19 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

In all seriousness, while people lash out at players after a loss like this, looking at the plays and sets we're running is worth it. Where we are on the pack line D is something to watch going forward. We've lost two 20-plus games already to unranked opponents, same guys who played last year, minus 3 players in the NBA. 

To what extent are these awful blow-out losses attributable to the pack line D, to our players still learning the pack line D, to not having the right players / length to run pack line D, etc.? 

We're losing these games because of crazy three-point shooting. That's the common denominator. This is why I keep questioning the need to lash out at particular players. It's just not as simple as saying Davis, or Rob, or anyone else is "lazy" etc. We're getting blitzed by threes, not by interior D, etc. The question is why? And to me that's still an open question.

To me, it looked like they got some open 3s early. Usually when we were late to rotate. With a 1 point game at the half, they realized they could win and then they did start hitting some tough, contested 3's. Shot way above their average. We let them hang around too long - too many careless turnovers and that built their confidence. At the same time, we showed very little toughness and the guys seemed to think they could just turn it on at the end to pull it out. 

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, HoosierFaithful said:

Those who know me know that I Iive in Phoenix.  I work with some UA fans and asked them about the pack line defense.

HF: "So, what do you think about the pack line defense?"

Co-worker: "Not sure.  It seems to be hit and miss"

HF: "Give up a lot of threes?"

CW: "Oh, crap, yeah that's definitely the achilles heel."

HF: "Does it seem to only work when you have 3/4 year players?"

CW: "Oh, man, that totally seems to be the case..."

HF: "Any upside?"

CW: "When it looks good, it's amazing."

B- level armchair analysis from a pseudo basketball fan.  Godspeed, gents.

Not trying to completely dismiss your co-worker, but some times fan perception can cloud reality. With everything your co-worker said, over the last 7 seasons UA has won 30+ games four times and 27 games or more 5 times, and add to that 4 Pac-12 titles and 3 Elite Eights, and that's with fairly young teams. 

I think sometimes fans see the Elite Eight losses and are frustrated they haven't gotten over the hump so develop a narrative that the defense doesn't work. 

To be fair, I don't follow UA closely, so I'm just going off records, but they look pretty good to me. 

 

[HoosierFaithful]

Sure, UA has been successful.  It was only an interesting exchange whereby this UA fan sees exactly the same problems I and others forsee for the pack line except UA has had the top-level talent that we all here hope will make the difference on the defensive end.

[addictedtoIU]

So FW's 6'2" guard Kason Harrell had a career night at Assembly Hall. When are we going to stop seeing that?

[IowaHoosierFan]

3 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

In all seriousness, while people lash out at players after a loss like this, looking at the plays and sets we're running is worth it. Where we are on the pack line D is something to watch going forward. We've lost two 20-plus games already to unranked opponents, same guys who played last year, minus 3 players in the NBA. 

To what extent are these awful blow-out losses attributable to the pack line D, to our players still learning the pack line D, to not having the right players / length to run pack line D, etc.? 

We're losing these games because of crazy three-point shooting. That's the common denominator. This is why I keep questioning the need to lash out at particular players. It's just not as simple as saying Davis, or Rob, or anyone else is "lazy" etc. We're getting blitzed by threes, not by interior D, etc. The question is why? And to me that's still an open question.

Add on to the 12-15 turnovers we average per game and we give every team alot of chances to shoot open 3 pointers.  When we don't turn the ball over, we can hang with Duke, UL, and ND.

[cybergates]

15 hours ago, 5fouls said:

On December 13th of Tom Crean's first year as coach, a group of former walk-ons, rag-tag recruits, and Juco transfers lost by only 18 against Kentucky in Rupp Arena.  On December 18th this season, this team, full of seniors, along with several top 150 Freshmen and Sophomores just lost at HOME to FORT WAYNE by 20.

The group of players Crean had deserved our unwavering support.

This group does not.

   

Quite a cherry pick there. Same team lost to Lipscomb 2 weeks later. Current team lost to #1 Duke by only 10.

I agree that team deserved our unwavering support because of the Samscum mess, but that doesn't mean this team does or doesn't. 

I would think CAM deserves our unwavering support because he is in his 1st year and true fans should give him time and support to implement his system with his players. Certain players may have worn out their welcome with certain fans, but the team as a whole should continue to receive our support (maybe not unwavering) and our criticism.

[bstall76]

There is a reason we are where we are right now and I think some of us forget this including myself.  Should we lose to ISU and IPFW no, but we were not good last year and lost 3 players to the pros

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/indiana-hoosiers-basketball-coach-archie-miller-schedule-fort-wayne-hoosiers-crean-krzyzewski/l7rch4ewo2vc1bvw6fge5xosd?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Hoosierhoopster]

13 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Add on to the 12-15 turnovers we average per game and we give every team alot of chances to shoot open 3 pointers.  When we don't turn the ball over, we can hang with Duke, UL, and ND.

Yeah that's fair

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, HoosierFaithful said:

Sure, UA has been successful.  It was only an interesting exchange whereby this UA fan sees exactly the same problems I and others forsee for the pack line except UA has had the top-level talent that we all here hope will make the difference on the defensive end.

Sure, I hear you, but doesn't UVA also run the pack line? They've been really successful without top-level talent. I haven't done research on it, but I guess what I'm wondering is, is the 3-pt worry with the pack-line a real thing that the stats prove out, or just a narrative that's been developed because the first thing mentioned with it is to protect the paint?

I don't know the answer. 

[cybergates]

6 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said:

oh, and i truly can't believe that we are even discussing what this team would have to do to make the tourney.  i can't see how that is even a goal at this point.

Agree. Only way to make the tourney now is winning the B1G tourney. No way we're winning enough games in the regular season now.

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 minute ago, bstall76 said:

There is a reason we are where we are right now and I think some of us forget this including myself.  Should we lose to ISU and IPFW no, but we were not good last year and lost 3 players to the pros

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/indiana-hoosiers-basketball-coach-archie-miller-schedule-fort-wayne-hoosiers-crean-krzyzewski/l7rch4ewo2vc1bvw6fge5xosd?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Yeah, kind of like the season after losing Vic, Cody et al, leaving only Yogi as a returning starter, this season we returned only Rob as a double-digit scorer. This is why I thought we'd struggle and wouldn't be a tourney team. That's not to excuse why we're so God awful defending the three-point line, but this is a team in transition between coaching staffs and following key departures to the NBA. Going to need time.

[5fouls]

16 minutes ago, cybergates said:

Quite a cherry pick there. Same team lost to Lipscomb 2 weeks later. Current team lost to #1 Duke by only 10.

I agree that team deserved our unwavering support because of the Samscum mess, but that doesn't mean this team does or doesn't. 

I would think CAM deserves our unwavering support because he is in his 1st year and true fans should give him time and support to implement his system with his players. Certain players may have worn out their welcome with certain fans, but the team as a whole should continue to receive our support (maybe not unwavering) and our criticism.

Lost to Lipscomb by 5.  Lipscomb and Fort Wayne are pretty much the same level program.  And, do we really need to compare rosters to determine which loss was worse?  I'll be happy to do so, but I think we'll know how that comparison will turn out.  

[cybergates]

2 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Lost to Lipscomb by 5.  Lipscomb and Fort Wayne are pretty much the same level program.  And, do we really need to compare rosters to determine which loss was worse?  I'll be happy to do so, but I think we'll know how that comparison will turn out.  

No argument from me that the FW and ISU losses were worse than any loss that the 2009 Hoosiers had. No argument from me that the 2009 Hoosiers had less talented players. Doesn't change the cherry pick of a "good loss" from 2009 comparison to bad losses from this year in an effort to no longer support this team. I like the 2009 Hoosiers better than this years squad. What they lacked in talent they tried to make up for in effort and heart. Don't see much of that on this year's team. I find the ISU and FW losses as unacceptable as anyone, but don't find them as reason to give up supporting this team. This team needs more support not less, since they clearly lack leadership on the floor.

I agree that the Pacers are much more fun to watch this year and Oladipo has been fantastic and a big reason why.

[KoB2011]

4 hours ago, rico said:

Notre Dame was a fluke.  The Irish had open looks they just weren't falling or weren't being taken for whatever reason.  ND played a bad game and still should have beat us.  Throw that one out the window.

I don't agree with this at all. ND was not a fluke, we played great. We just don't have the mental toughness and focus to bring that every game, which we must do with our talent level. This team thinks they can go through the motions and win against this type team because the upper class men could do that when we had guys like Yogi, Troy, Bryant, OG, etc.  There's a major difference in talent between those guys as our key players and guys like Johnson. 

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Sure, I hear you, but doesn't UVA also run the pack line? They've been really successful without top-level talent. I haven't done research on it, but I guess what I'm wondering is, is the 3-pt worry with the pack-line a real thing that the stats prove out, or just a narrative that's been developed because the first thing mentioned with it is to protect the paint?

I don't know the answer. 

I've got a buddy who is a big UVA fan, he says that is the real vulnerability of it. It shouldn't look like ours does, it should be guys closing out hard, under-control on shooters forcing guys to hit contested threes. You shouldn't be seeing a ton of open threes, that's the result of a breakdown defensively. 

[addictedtoIU]

6 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I don't agree with this at all. ND was not a fluke, we played great. We just don't have the mental toughness and focus to bring that every game, which we must do with our talent level. This team thinks they can go through the motions and win against this type team because the upper class men could do that when we had guys like Yogi, Troy, Bryant, OG, etc.  There's a major difference in talent between those guys as our key players and guys like Johnson. 

+1

We played pretty good defense in ND game and I thought overall our guys did really good jobs to close out 3-point shooters. I didn't watch FW game so I can't compare those two games, but what I'm sure about is our team didn't exert their energy in FW game like they did in ND game. To me, it seems like the old habit coming back; after a great game, they lowered their guard down and didn't take the FW game seriously. Maybe it was because of fatigue, who knows?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, rico said:

Notre Dame was a fluke.  The Irish had open looks they just weren't falling or weren't being taken for whatever reason.  ND played a bad game and still should have beat us.  Throw that one out the window.

I'd say that the way ISU and FW shot 3'swere more flukes than our play vs ND

[IowaHoosierFan]

20 minutes ago, Jerry Lundergaard said:

I'd say that the way ISU and FW shot 3'swere more flukes than our play vs ND

Every team has shot good from 3 from us.  ISU and FW just shot even better than the average.  If we play ND 9 more times, we probably lose 9 times.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Every team has shot good from 3 from us.  ISU and FW just shot even better than the average.  If we play ND 9 more times, we probably lose 9 times.

And that is where the flukiness lies.

Neither of those teams have come close to hitting 3's in other games 

[IowaHoosierFan]

5 minutes ago, Jerry Lundergaard said:

And that is where the flukiness lies.

Neither of those teams have come close to hitting 3's in other games 

yeah but is hard to say fluke when everyone has shoot so well against us.  Its the defense we run combined with the lack of talent for defense on the players.  As mentioned before, it doesn't help when we give them an extra 12-15 chances with our Turnover ratio.  Just my opinion but i don't think ISU or FW was a fluke.  We let teams that can shoot gain confidence with wide open shots, and when you do that, the harder shots start falling for you as well.  I just can' t blame out losses on fluke shooting.  One team, yes, every team, not likely.  Otherwise we just happen to be the most unlucky team in the history of basketball.  And this isn't just this year.  For years we have always let at least player have a career game against us.

Jason

[slojoe]

3 point defense was not the only severe problem for IU last night.  Points off turnovers really killed us in this game.   FW scored 29 pts. off TO's  to our 7 pts.  Many of these TO's were unforced like throwing a defensive rebound to Scott for an easy layup.  Many of our errors were live ball situations which FW was able to get out in transition and score.  We threw lots of bad passes, and often receivers did not get in good position to receive the ball.

[rico]

2 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I don't agree with this at all. ND was not a fluke, we played great. We just don't have the mental toughness and focus to bring that every game, which we must do with our talent level. This team thinks they can go through the motions and win against this type team because the upper class men could do that when we had guys like Yogi, Troy, Bryant, OG, etc.  There's a major difference in talent between those guys as our key players and guys like Johnson. 

Notre Dame played like shit.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, rico said:

Notre Dame played like shit.

Rico,

You've been more than a little cranky of late. 

Spend some time with your wife, if you know what I mean 😗

[rico]

3 minutes ago, Jerry Lundergaard said:

Rico,

You've been more than a little cranky of late. 

Spend some time with your wife, if you know what I mean 😗

So you are saying I have been out of character?