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21 minutes ago, CTrojan88 said:

Our opinions obviously differ which is okay.  I have seen enough of Newkirk to conclude that he is not going to get any better.  He is what he is.....so, if this were my team, his minutes would go to the underclassman that can improve and be assets down the road.  By doing so, I don’t think we would see a noticeable  drop off in overall team play.  Obviously, there isn’t a clear cut choice at Archie’s disposal and he is forced to make due with what he has.  I am just glad that he is here instead of Crean or things would be really ugly....

Just for the sake of conversation, let's say that we go on a hot run and become tournament eligible.

Who would you rather have playing pg, a senior who has been through the wars, or a sophomore still trying to figure things out?

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4 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

Can I gripe about the old people who sit down during the entire game while the team needs crowd noise, too?

I was actually arrested once for standing up on my seat and making too much noise at a Reds game.  Of course,  the fact I wasn't wearing pants at the time may have something to do with it as well.   

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13 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

The Newkirk / Green debate comes down to this. 

  • We all want better from both of them than what we get.
  • Both are frustratingly inconsistent.
  • Newkirk is a senior and Green is a sophomore.  As a result, we have higher hopes that Green will eventually figure it out.
  • That said, Newkirk's numbers are generally better.  Not a huge discrepancy, and neither has numbers you would call 'good'.  But, Newkirk's are better, and I'm not sure how someone can argue they are not.   

I'd like piggyback on to this and add:

Newkirk's and Green's boneheaded plays have different degrees of boneheadedness. I think that Newkirk's are morese mistakes, but made under better intentions. Green is the king of taking horrible shots; these are much easier to avoid. I hesitate to even call them mistakes because he gets himself into situations that he should knowingly not get into. This is why he gets yanked out of the game more than Newkirk. 

And let's remember that we all (most of us) have been begging for a coach who uses the bench as a motivator. Archie is doing exactly this and it's why I'm not questioning Green's playing time. 

So....who's better? I think that question is irrelevant right now. I think the question is: who puts us in a position to win? Right now I think that's Newkirk. Green has way more potential, but you can't earn PT based on potential. 

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21 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

The students aren't our monkeys to jump up and down and make noise when we want them to.  You get the good with the bad.  They make noise and are a large part of what makes AH (including last night -- as alluded to earlier, Archie asked for noise and the crowd delivered) so hard to play in.  Sometimes at the upper levels, they don't show up in as big of numbers for more "meh" games.

Can I gripe about the old people who sit down during the entire game while the team needs crowd noise, too?

That's fine if you do, at least they're there. And if they won't show up for meh games, then they shouldn't be given as many tickets. That's BS. 

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In regards to Green and Newkirk, Newkirk has obviously slightly outperformed Green so far.  But I think Green could be playing as well as Newkirk if he was given as much latitude to make mistakes as Newkirk is.  Green would never be able to shoot 5-17 like Newkirk did against MSU because Archie would yank him after the first or second bad shot.  It has seemed like Archie has allowed Newkirk to play through his boneheaded shots and turnovers (of which there have been a LOT), but he hasn’t allowed Green that same opportunity.  I think this has affected Green’s confidence and contributed to his poor play.  But then again, Archie has been doing a really good job with this team in conference play, so who are we to question him?

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11 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Yeah it was pretty pathetic.  Not sure if the worst call was Newkirk's offensive foul as he was being put in a headlock or Juwan's offensive foul when the guy was in the middle of the circle.  

The one on Morgan was horrible but the foul call on Durham when he did not even come close to the player who made the layup.

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19 minutes ago, CTrojan88 said:

Our opinions obviously differ which is okay.  I have seen enough of Newkirk to conclude that he is not going to get any better.  He is what he is.....so, if this were my team, his minutes would go to the underclassman that can improve and be assets down the road.  By doing so, I don’t think we would see a noticeable  drop off in overall team play.  Obviously, there isn’t a clear cut choice at Archie’s disposal and he is forced to make due with what he has.  I am just glad that he is here instead of Crean or things would be really ugly....

If this is what you had said then I would completely agree to disagree with you but instead you claimed that Green was "far better than Newkirk" which is false in every measurable statistic except for the fact that Green averages half a steal per game more than Newkirk. I understand why people get frustrated with him as he's largely under produced in his tenure at IU but he plays hard and does what Archie tells him to and you can't say the same about Green. At the end of the day, if Green were better he'd be starting but he isn't so this is what we're left with. If Green and/or Durham improve their play then they'll take over but I wouldn't hold your breath. I'll choose to root for Josh and hope he can put together a string of solid performances because we need him to do so in order to beat teams like Purdue and MSU at home. You can choose to continue to create fables about Green and Durhams abilities...everyone needs a hobby.

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5 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

In regards to Green and Newkirk, Newkirk has obviously slightly outperformed Green so far.  But I think Green could be playing as well as Newkirk if he was given as much latitude to make mistakes as Newkirk is.  Green would never be able to shoot 5-17 like Newkirk did against MSU because Archie would yank him after the first or second bad shot.  It has seemed like Archie has allowed Newkirk to play through his boneheaded shots and turnovers (of which there have been a LOT), but he hasn’t allowed Green that same opportunity.  I think this has affected Green’s confidence and contributed to his poor play.  But then again, Archie has been doing a really good job with this team in conference play, so who are we to question him?

If Green would be more patient and play within the game plan he wouldn't get yanked. Newkirk misses a lot of shots but their shots you'd want your starting PG to take and hopefully make. If you compare their shooting percentages you see why Newkirk has more rope from Archie regardless of the fact that Green has a tenancy to jack up quick 3's out of rhythm and context of the offense.   Green is his own worst enemy and if he wants more minutes he has to play within the offense and do what he's told. 

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9 minutes ago, Jerry Lundergaard said:

Just for the sake of conversation, let's say that we go on a hot run and become tournament eligible.

Who would you rather have playing pg, a senior who has been through the wars, or a sophomore still trying to figure things out?

Who played during the hot streak?  That would be who would get the minutes if we made the tournament.  To this point, we haven’t gotten hot  in nearly two years with Newkirk getting the bulk of the minutes at the point so why not make a change?   More minutes and a starting role may just be the thing that Green needs to get him going.  Again, I don’t think you would see a huge drop off in overall team play so it may be worth a look.

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2 hours ago, CTrojan88 said:

Newkirk is a senior that adds very little value IMO.  Green and Durham are both underclassman with significant upside.  They will only get better with more playing time.  This school of thought is more with an eye to the future.  I just don’t see where Newkirk (or Freddie) offers any value, especially in tight games.  

You play whoever gives you the best chance to win the game

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3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

You play whoever gives you the best chance to win the game

Then my lineup would be Johnson, Morgan, McRoberts, Smith and Hartman.  Have one guard and one big man rotate in and out to give the starters a brief rest and roll with it for the remainder of the season.  That would certainly solve the Green vs Newkirk debate 😁

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12 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Yeah it was pretty pathetic.  Not sure if the worst call was Newkirk's offensive foul as he was being put in a headlock or Juwan's offensive foul when the guy was in the middle of the circle.  

Newkirk's was probably the most egregious of them all but I especially loved the "shooting" foul called on RoJo under the basket as he went up for a rebound with position over Hueter who was behind him going for the tip back and made contact with RoJo's hand in the process. 

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24 minutes ago, Hoosier82 said:

If Green would be more patient and play within the game plan he wouldn't get yanked. Newkirk misses a lot of shots but their shots you'd want your starting PG to take and hopefully make. If you compare their shooting percentages you see why Newkirk has more rope from Archie regardless of the fact that Green has a tenancy to jack up quick 3's out of rhythm and context of the offense.   Green is his own worst enemy and if he wants more minutes he has to play within the offense and do what he's told. 

Newkirk jacks at least one or two awful 30 footers every game.

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Very happy for the win yesterday. What can we do without Morgan? He keeps solidifying himself as THE star player, and this is HIS team. 

RoJo has started playing well, so now we've got much needed one-two punch in offense. If we play strong team defense and the remaining guys take turns and become the 3rd scoring push, we can become a decent team. Considering the level and the makeup of this team, games against PU, MSU, and OSU can be guaranteed losses, so we must win as many winnable games as possible. I think the best case scenario is we go 11-7 in Big 10. Then, we'll be 18-12 before BTT. If we can luckily go 2-1 (20-13 overall), we can be right in the bubble. 

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2 hours ago, BGleas said:

Newkirk has had a couple bad games partly because of foul trouble, but largely in conference if anything RoJo and Newkirk have separated themselves from Green and Durham. Newkirk is our most consistent 3-pt shooter and despite that bad turnover our most reliable ball handler. His D on opposing point guards has been solid. 

There’s more than just making some circus shot. Green was really bad last night in terms of decision making, so,e bad shots, and there was also a big offensive rebound he gave up by falling asleep on a switch where Maryland got an And 1. 

Im someone that was hyping Green over the summer, but it just hasn’t clicked for him yet this year. 

Last night was not a great illustration of Newkirk’s “solid defense”. Green and Durham both played better D than him. 

That being said, I’m firmly in the camp that none of the three are currently capable and we have to pick our poison. 

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Just now, addictedtoIU said:

Very happy for the win yesterday. What can we do without Morgan? He keeps solidifying himself as THE star player, and this is HIS team. 

RoJo has started playing well, so now we've got much needed one-two punch in offense. If we play strong team defense and the remaining guys take turns and become the 3rd scoring push, we can become a decent team. Considering the level and the makeup of this team, games against PU, MSU, and OSU can be guaranteed losses, so we must win as many winnable games as possible. I think the best case scenario is we go 11-7 in Big 10. Then, we'll be 18-12 before BTT. If we can luckily go 2-1 (20-13 overall), we can be right in the bubble. 

I think one of those wins has to be against MSU, OSU or Purdue. If not, I don't think 20 wins will do it this year. Big Ten is weak and we have 2 HORRIBLE losses on the resume. 

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1 hour ago, HoosierFaithful said:

As a recent grad, easier said than done.  This team isn't that exciting (to folks outside of us crazies) and unless you have two tickets together, there isn't a huge population of students who want to fly solo to a game.  If you get a last minute study session for a test you're gonna fail, you don't have a lot of time to make decisions.

Now, of course, nobody actually sits in their assigned seats in the student section, vbg, but just arguing the other side.  

I am wondering if the schedule this year is hurting the attendance.  it seems like the schedule is all over the place and really don't know when the team is playing.  You are having Monday and Friday night games.  Also had some Sunday night games which none of these are ideal day and time to go to the game.

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1 minute ago, tdhoosier said:

I think one of those wins has to be against MSU, OSU or Purdue. If not, I don't think 20 wins will do it this year. Big Ten is weak and we have 2 HORRIBLE losses on the resume. 

Agreed. I really don't think we can beat MSU and PU, but we can possibly split with OSU because OSU is a bit similar to us in terms of size. They're not a big team. But then, even if we luckily split with OSU, we may lose one of those remaining winnable games. So I thought the best case scenario is to go 6-4 in the remaining 10 games. 

In the end, the 2 terrible losses to ISU and IPFW WILL hurt us. If things happen as I'm hoping, IU will be brought up as a bubble team, but we'll probably get dropped and  end up going to the NIT. We have to either beat MSU or PU (and split w/ OSU) OR we have to WIN the BTT to get in. 

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2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I am wondering if the schedule this year is hurting the attendance.  it seems like the schedule is all over the place and really don't know when the team is playing.  You are having Monday and Friday night games.  Also had some Sunday night games which none of these are ideal day and time to go to the game.

It's IU. every night is a party night except for Sunday. 

Monday: happy hour all night at Kilroys
Tuesday: 1/2 price wine at Crazy Horse
Wednesday: $.15 drafts at Bluebird
Thursday - Saturday: Go all out

I think the students can manage some Monday and Friday night games. haha.

*Forgive me if some of the specials changed since I left....it's been 15 years. 

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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

I was actually arrested once for standing up on my seat and making too much noise at a Reds game.  Of course,  the fact I wasn't wearing pants at the time may have something to do with it as well.   

When the Colts moved to Indy my family knew a season ticket holder and use to go to at least one game a year.  these seats were right behind the Colts bench on row 15.  I saw older women knitting and people reading newspapers. It was also time for a bunch of yuppies in their kackis to talk business.  When people use to stand and cheer people would yell at them to sit down.  Just because you donate a lot of money to get goods seats does not mean you are great fans.

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36 minutes ago, CTrojan88 said:

Then my lineup would be Johnson, Morgan, McRoberts, Smith and Hartman.  Have one guard and one big man rotate in and out to give the starters a brief rest and roll with it for the remainder of the season.  That would certainly solve the Green vs Newkirk debate 😁

Then you would probably have a turnover on every possession.

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4 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

It's IU. every night is a party night except for Sunday. 

Monday: happy hour all night at Kilroys
Tuesday: 1/2 price wine at Crazy Horse
Wednesday: $.15 drafts at Bluebird
Thursday - Saturday: Go all out

I think the students can manage some Monday and Friday night games. haha.

*Forgive me if some of the specials changed since I left....it's been 15 years. 

I am not just talking about students because all the empty seats are not just do to the students.

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