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Today vs. Yesterday


rico

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There's a Bird highlight reel  that pops up in my feed every once in awhile when a friend gets nostalgic...man oh man was he smooth and yeah, I think he'd be an all-star today as well.  Some of the shots and passes he made look just as unbelievable today as they did back then.  I'm sure there's an equally impressive clip for Magic Johnson.  Some guys are timeless.  No doubt, others would be passed by today's superior athletes, but I don't think those two would look out of place.

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49 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

There are great players today but to me the depth of great players today is thin compared to the past.

Part of the problem comparing today's players to yesterday's is the greater exposure of players today. It's natural for some to say that today's are the best ever, when they see so much more of the current players and they are heavily promoted. George Gervin was putting up Steph Curry numbers (better actually) in the late 1970s, early 80s (30ppg, 53% FG%). But he played in obscurity in San Antonio when only Celtics and Lakers games were televised. Conference finals games were shown in tape delay at 11:30PM.

 

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This debate is timeless. It is next to impossible to directly compare different generations of players and under different rules of the game.

That said, there really is no question that today's players are bigger, stronger and faster, collectively. This is true in most sports (today's tennis stars would crush yesterday's, etc.). Training (including all of the science/technology based fitness and endurance regimens and weight training), nutrition/diet plans, the growth of the sport and the ages at which kids are trained with formal training, travel teams/AAU, etc., all have developed today's athletes in basketball significantly more than before, there's really no denying that.

That said there are certainly guys who would be stars today, just as they were yesterday. Give me MJ, I Thomas, Magic, Bird, etc. any day. Thomas would kill everyone in his path, just as he did in the 80's-90's. MJ would destroy opposing 2's and wing defenders. Bird would shoot lights out and finesse you.And so on. 

But I would disagree with the thought that the depth of great players today is lacking, or that the skill level was greater yesterday. The NBA is flat out loaded with great players and especially point guards and shooters. Big men are down, for sure, because the game has moved away from the Shaqs and on to the Greek Freaks. And that also cuts against the idea that there is not as much depth or talent today as yesterday. Today's mobile, multi-position "bigs" are hugely talented -- from the advent in guys in Dirk to Anthony Davis, Greek Freak, etc. Put those guys in the 80s and what happens? The talent and skill level of these guys is off the charts. The game has evolved, and tremendously.

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3 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

This debate is timeless. It is next to impossible to directly compare different generations of players and under different rules of the game.

That said, there really is no question that today's players are bigger, stronger and faster, collectively. This is true in most sports (today's tennis stars would crush yesterday's, etc.). Training (including all of the science/technology based fitness and endurance regimens and weight training), nutrition/diet plans, the growth of the sport and the ages at which kids are trained with formal training, travel teams/AAU, etc., all have developed today's athletes in basketball significantly more than before, there's really no denying that.

That said there are certainly guys who would be stars today, just as they were yesterday. Give me MJ, I Thomas, Magic, Bird, etc. any day. Thomas would kill everyone in his path, just as he did in the 80's-90's. MJ would destroy opposing 2's and wing defenders. Bird would shoot lights out and finesse you.And so on. 

But I would disagree with the thought that the depth of great players today is lacking, or that the skill level was greater yesterday. The NBA is flat out loaded with great players and especially point guards and shooters. Big men are down, for sure, because the game has moved away from the Shaqs and on to the Greek Freaks. And that also cuts against the idea that there is not as much depth or talent today as yesterday. Today's mobile, multi-position "bigs" are hugely talented -- from the advent in guys in Dirk to Anthony Davis, Greek Freak, etc. Put those guys in the 80s and what happens? The talent and skill level of these guys is off the charts. The game has evolved, and tremendously.

Yes there probably are better athletes today but I am more concerned with them being basketball players which I don't think there are as many great players today.  Also the talent today is to dispersed because of way to many expansion teams over the last 20 years.  With the expansion it reduced the amount of teams that had great players and it brought in to many players that wouldn't have been in the NBA in years past.

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10 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Yes there probably are better athletes today but I am more concerned with them being basketball players which I don't think there are as many great players today.  Also the talent today is to dispersed because of way to many expansion teams over the last 20 years.  With the expansion it reduced the amount of teams that had great players and it brought in to many players that wouldn't have been in the NBA in years past.

Why aren't these guys great basketball players? 

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Just now, HoosierFaithful said:

Those goalposts are moving a bit.  Now because we have too many teams, the talent level is somehow less?  

The "better athletes than players" argument is tired, IMO.  It comes off as a skin-level talking point with not much true analysis behind it.  Did their form somehow get collectively worse or something?

Yes. The Kevin Durant has much worse shooting form than Shaq. 

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On 1/28/2018 at 8:36 AM, rico said:

 

IMO the biggest difference from the 70's to now is the attire.  Back in the day you wore short shorts and tall socks.  Now you wear long shorts and short socks.  It has changed the game!

Biggest change in athletic attire from back then... to today ?   No question.  The invention of the hard athletic cup.  Just ask Cody Zeller !

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3 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Probably one of the best and most athletic players of all time is Wilt Chamberlin but he would just be a journey man in today's basketball.

Ok, you lost me.  You really think Chamberlain would be a journeyman, even today?!  That literally made me LOL.  He's like Shaq, but can shoot.  IMO, there's been no one like him since he's retired, in regards to a back to the basket game and an ability to shoot.

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2 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

Ok, you lost me.  You really think Chamberlain would be a journeyman, even today?!  That literally made me LOL.  He's like Shaq, but can shoot.  IMO, there's been no one like him since he's retired, in regards to a back to the basket game and an ability to shoot.

Maybe you need to read the whole thread because I was being sarcastic toward another person's post.  Some think if you played before the 2000's you can't play as well as the players of today.  I think Wilt would totally dominate the game today and no one could stop him.  He can run the floor as well as anyone does today but to some if you played back then you were a stiff.

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4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Maybe you need to read the whole thread because I was being sarcastic toward another person's post.  Some think if you played before the 2000's you can't play as well as the players of today.  I think Wilt would totally dominate the game today and no one could stop him.  He can run the floor as well as anyone does today but to some if you played back then you were a stiff.

Gotcha, I didn't pick up on the sarcasm and took your post at face value.  My bad.

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5 minutes ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

And yet Durant has better career shooting percentages than The Logo. 

To me and it is only my opinion I would compare Durant to players like Alex English and Dominque Wilkens of the 80's They were great players but never considered the best of all time.

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9 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Maybe you need to read the whole thread because I was being sarcastic toward another person's post.  Some think if you played before the 2000's you can't play as well as the players of today.  I think Wilt would totally dominate the game today and no one could stop him.  He can run the floor as well as anyone does today but to some if you played back then you were a stiff.

If you keep referring to a strawman, it's a sign you don't have a great argument.  Nobody is claiming that anybody pre-2k is somehow irrelevant.  

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11 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

To me and it is only my opinion I would compare Durant to players like Alex English and Dominque Wilkens of the 80's They were great players but never considered the best of all time.

I don't know about that as far as the comparison.  To be honest I dont know what old school guy I would compare KD to.  Much like LBJ.

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20 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Maybe you need to read the whole thread because I was being sarcastic toward another person's post.  Some think if you played before the 2000's you can't play as well as the players of today.  I think Wilt would totally dominate the game today and no one could stop him.  He can run the floor as well as anyone does today but to some if you played back then you were a stiff.

Wilt was incredible -- in his generation. Would he dominate players like LeBron, Antetokounmpo, Anthony Davis, Cousins, or more recently Tim Duncan (arguably the greatest power forward ever), etc.? You have to consider the players Wilt was playing against, the size, athleticism, strength, and skill level of those guys, compared to today's players. I can't think of anyone, and I mean anyone, like AntetoKounmpo, or for that matter, LeBron, back then. Completely different level of athleticism, size and strength. Who in the world would go toe to toe with LeBron?? 

Again, no one is disputing that there are a number of past greats who would be great today (and no on is stopping MJ), but the fllip side of that argument is that many, and I do mean many, of today's elite players would dominate yesterday's players. They're not just bigger, stronger and faster, they're also just as if not more skilled than most former players. Who handles the ball as well as Curry, or Kyrie? Who has the shear speed, athleticism and scoring ability, or the defensive ability to stop Westbrook? How many players can you name that shot anywhere near as well as Curry? Just look at the league 3-point leaders right now, heck, Klay Thompson is 1st in 3-point %, at 45%, while being 2nd in 3-pointers made (161), Curry is 3d in 3-pointers made, or you could look at the 2-way players today, Paul George is 5th in 3-pointers made, shooting 42%, and #1 in steals and 3rd in defensive efficiency. The level of skill and athleticism in today's players is on a whole new level.

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