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3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I think those are questions that can't really be answered. These guys are human beings, not robots, so of course the way the season is unfolding is taking a toll and that can impact confidence. Confidence comes from success, and I'm not sure what Archie can do to make this roster experience more success, especially against teams that are just flat-out better than us. 

I played on a couple really bad college teams, and can tell you it is exhausting mentally. Human nature takes over and it just gets harder and harder to feel good about practice and working, etc. You're not conscientiously choosing to give less effort or have less confidence, but it just happens and you get to a point where you just want the season to end, which definitely impacts performance. Again, it's not really a conscience choice, it's just reality. 

With that said, I don't see a lack of effort with this team. Outside of a sluggish start, which happens, I thought the guys played hard, especially defensively. They clearly played hard against Purdue. It's just a shame we couldn't pull out the UI game and haven't been able to break through in games like Duke and Purdue, because the team was right there and a win in a few of those games could have changed the trajectory of everything. 

I could really see that mentality from the players at the end of the RMK era where it always appeared the players were ready for the season to end.

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The team is obviously really limited, but it’s not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.  We’re hardly less talented than OSU, and WAY more talented than Illinois.  Everyone says we have no shot blockers, but we have an athletic 6’10 shot blocker sitting on the bench who didn’t play one single minute in a game that was a blowout from the opening tip last night.  That doesn’t make any sense, and people would be howling if Crean did that.

Like everyone else, I’ve noticed the improvement in the offensive and defensive schemes, plays out of timeouts, etc.  But if you look at the numbers in conference play, the defense isn’t really that good, which is perplexing.  The bottom line is Archie hasn’t overachieved with this roster.  I think he’s an X’s and O’s upgrade over Crean, but he’s going to have to start landing big time recruits for us “to get back where we want to be,” as everyone says.

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3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I think those are questions that can't really be answered. These guys are human beings, not robots, so of course the way the season is unfolding is taking a toll and that can impact confidence. Confidence comes from success, and I'm not sure what Archie can do to make this roster experience more success, especially against teams that are just flat-out better than us. 

I played on a couple really bad college teams, and can tell you it is exhausting mentally. Human nature takes over and it just gets harder and harder to feel good about practice and working, etc. You're not conscientiously choosing to give less effort or have less confidence, but it just happens and you get to a point where you just want the season to end, which definitely impacts performance. Again, it's not really a conscience choice, it's just reality. 

With that said, I don't see a lack of effort with this team. Outside of a sluggish start, which happens, I thought the guys played hard, especially defensively. They clearly played hard against Purdue. It's just a shame we couldn't pull out the UI game and haven't been able to break through in games like Duke and Purdue, because the team was right there and a win in a few of those games could have changed the trajectory of everything. 

This discussion is simply premature.  Had we won against Duke and PU everyone would be singing CAM's praises.  David would have slain Goliath.  CAM is a genius.  I think with the roster we have just being in those games already proves that CAM can coach.  I think we simply have a team that can't hit FT's or 3's right now.  If that were fixed, we could easily have 4 more wins.  It was time for CTC to go.  I wish him well and appreciate what positives he brought to IUBB.  CAM now deserves some time and patience.  So far I like what I see.  I like the emphasis on D.  I like slowing the game down and working for better shots.  These young men have been playing harder and with more intensity as the season has progressed.  I will back them the rest of the season.  All we need to do now is let CAM bring in players that fit his system and then we can start to judge his performance more fairly.  

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1 minute ago, FW_Hoosier said:

The team is obviously really limited, but it’s not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.  We’re hardly less talented than OSU, and WAY more talented than Illinois.  Everyone says we have no shot blockers, but we have an athletic 6’10 shot blocker sitting on the bench who didn’t play one single minute in a game that was a blowout from the opening tip last night.  That doesn’t make any sense, and people would be howling if Crean did that.

Like everyone else, I’ve noticed the improvement in the offensive and defensive schemes, plays out of timeouts, etc.  But if you look at the numbers in conference play, the defense isn’t really that good, which is perplexing.  The bottom line is Archie hasn’t overachieved with this roster.  I think he’s an X’s and O’s upgrade over Crean, but he’s going to have to start landing big time recruits for us “to get back where we want to be,” as everyone says.

We also have a 6'10" athletic shot blocker that is slow on defensive rotations, and gets flat out lost on defense. That's why he's not playing.

Believe it or not, McSwain is extremely good defensively with help defense, rotations, etc. Now offensively, that's a different story.

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7 minutes ago, ephul said:

We also have a 6'10" athletic shot blocker that is slow on defensive rotations, and gets flat out lost on defense. That's why he's not playing.

Believe it or not, McSwain is extremely good defensively with help defense, rotations, etc. Now offensively, that's a different story.

Tough to get a feel for the game when you never even get a chance to play (see Justin Smith).  I’m not even dissing McSwain, I think he’s largely exceeded expectations this year.  But there’s no reason for Moore to not even see the floor when the game was over in the first 5 minutes.  In the Purdue game, it made sense to keep him on the bench.  But we couldn’t get a stop to save our lives last night, even with the upperclassmen on the floor.  I don’t think Archie has given the underclassmen enough run this season.

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9 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Tough to get a feel for the game when you never even get a chance to play (see Justin Smith).  I’m not even dissing McSwain, I think he’s largely exceeded expectations this year.  But there’s no reason for Moore to not even see the floor when the game was over in the first 5 minutes.  In the Purdue game, it made sense to keep him on the bench.  But we couldn’t get a stop to save our lives last night, even with the upperclassmen on the floor.  I don’t think Archie has given the underclassmen enough run this season.

When you don't have a feel for defense in practice, why should Archie put him in the game? You set a bad precedent if you are putting people in games that aren't succeeding in practice.

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3 minutes ago, ephul said:

When you don't have a feel for defense in practice, why should Archie put him in the game? You set a bad precedent if you are putting people in games that aren't succeeding in practice.

All I can think about is Allen Iverson!!!!!!!!

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I will have to say I'm a bit disappointed in the way this season turned out. This is based on my personal expectations for the team not being met. I've always felt talent is the baseline for performance and coaches move that baseline up or down based on how good or bad of a coach they are. I still feel like Archie is a good coach that moves the baseline up, but the baseline talent level for IU is lower than I thought it was. Archie has probably moved the baseline up less than I thought he would, but I don't think that's on him as much as it is on poor roster construction and fit to his style. 

I don't know what more he can do when he only has one player (Morgan) with a high enough level of talent that competes on both ends of the court consistently. RoJo has the talent level, and brings it consistently on D, but what can Archie do to prevent RoJo from disappearing on O some games (2pts last night, 0 vs UL)? 

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While I was hoping Archie (or any other coach) could step in and have results like OSU, the only realization is that Archie can't "spin straw into gold".  I think it's important to remember how bad last year's team was.  Now you take our best shooter and our starting center away and you're looking at an even worse team.  We needed existing players to up their game and Juwan is the one who has done that.  Rob has played some really good defense and had some good offensive games as well (but has always been wildly inconsistent).  This team has no impact player sophomores or freshmen.

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You cannot hold the current roster against Archie or injuries (even though the team went on a run after Davis went down).

It is way to early to tell about player development since he has not been here long enough to really develope anyone significantly. For those that want to say he is the reason for Morgan's jump then you have to give him credit for other players regression.

The following are my opinions on what he has done well and what he has not.

Positives:

Game plan, especially for our higher profile home games. (May be its the home court and the fans but this team did show up ready for duke and Purdue, we will see what they can do for osu and msu)

Use the bench as a teaching tool. When a player makes a really dumb play they usually sit on the bench for a while.

Run an offense that values the ball. Turn overs have not been an issue like in previous years.

Negatives:

In game adjustments. I just have not seen many adjustments from the initial game plan that has turned a close game into a win. We have had multiple games that we played really well the first half and then didn't keep the momentum going for the entire game. No offense for defense subs, time outs to set up a play to isolate Morgan on the block, etc... I am sure some has happened and the execution didn't allow it to succeed, but none stand out in my mind. Crean was also perceived by many fans as bad at making adjustments.

Instill confidence in our team. Maybe we are just a terrible shooting team but several players numbers have gone backwards this year both from outside and the free throw line. It is just strange that so many players seem gun shy to pull the trigger. I am not at practice or in the locker room but something with the coaching staff and players just doesn't seem to be there where the players are confident in what they are doing imho.

Getting the team ready for all games. I know there is only so much a coach can do but there have been sections of games / entire games where the team is going through the motions but doesn't seem to want to be on the court playing. Not sure how this could be corrected but it has been an issue.

Defense. I see tons of people saying our defense has gotten better but the advanced metrics like kenpom to not support this. We are still a sub 100 rated defense. There have been some games where we look good and others where we are terrible. The defense is different than the past decade but it is still nowhere near where it needs to be to compete at an elite level.

Recruiting. While I know a lot of people will say I am crazy here, there is still a large hole in the roster even with the incoming class. Where is a true big man? Currently we have some nice pieces but there is not real center. We will be a taller team next year for sure but I would like to see someone 6'10" or taller with some mass added for next year. I do not recall anyone we are really making a push for right now that fits that bill. If you add a big man and maybe Romeo it could be like the fab 5 coming. Don't land a big man and people may be complaining that we are undersized again.

 

Overall :

Will he work out only time will tell and when I say time we need to be committed for at least 5 years. This up coming year will be his first real class and with at least 2 open spots it could be the best class we have ever landed. In my mind we weren't going to compete for any titles this year but I deffinetly did not think that we would lose to ipfw at home, isu at home or a really bad Illinois team. We have also had close calls to a bad Minnesota team, Penn State at home, and Howard at home. We have lost to 4 teams outside the top 100 with loses to 142, 158, 160 and 193 in the rpi.

Notre dame is really the only game we have won that I do not think we should have. We still have chances to get more but we also have chances to lose more games that we should win.

The coach cannot make an open jump shot or free throw for his players. He cannot go on the court and guard someone for his players. He cannot put forth effort for his players. What he can do is work his a$$ off to get them ready and address weaknesses in practice. He can connect with them to get them to want to run through a brick wall for him. He can take the grenades for his team in the media and blame himself for short comings (even if it isn't true he is the leader and should protect his players, crean was really bad at this). 

What we can do as fans is be patient, hold him to the same standards as previous coaches and support him and his players with the blind loyalty that real fans do.

 

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15 minutes ago, Zuckerkorn said:

While I was hoping Archie (or any other coach) could step in and have results like OSU, the only realization is that Archie can't "spin straw into gold".  I think it's important to remember how bad last year's team was.  Now you take our best shooter and our starting center away and you're looking at an even worse team.  We needed existing players to up their game and Juwan is the one who has done that.  Rob has played some really good defense and had some good offensive games as well (but has always been wildly inconsistent).  This team has no impact player sophomores or freshmen.

Good points. And to think even with those guys, we were still a bad team.

I haven't posted much lately simply because apathy has set in for me regarding this years' team. I was going to wait until the season was over to start an Archie Report Card thread, but since this team isn't going anywhere (NIT is out), I'm glad to see 5 started a similar thread. As others have said this is pretty much a throw away year and I'm anxious to see what CAM can do in the upcoming seasons.

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1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

The team is obviously really limited, but it’s not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.  We’re hardly less talented than OSU, and WAY more talented than Illinois.  Everyone says we have no shot blockers, but we have an athletic 6’10 shot blocker sitting on the bench who didn’t play one single minute in a game that was a blowout from the opening tip last night.  That doesn’t make any sense, and people would be howling if Crean did that.

Like everyone else, I’ve noticed the improvement in the offensive and defensive schemes, plays out of timeouts, etc.  But if you look at the numbers in conference play, the defense isn’t really that good, which is perplexing.  The bottom line is Archie hasn’t overachieved with this roster.  I think he’s an X’s and O’s upgrade over Crean, but he’s going to have to start landing big time recruits for us “to get back where we want to be,” as everyone says.

At this point I think that CAM has either seen enough of Moore in practice to conclude that he's not ready to contribute this year or that he's not going to be part of the program going forward 

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I was gonna say this earlier but I bit my tongue.  Now I am gonna get it off my chest.  I watched the entire game last night and JSMH.  Double digit deficit pretty much right off the bat.  But in the 2nd half why not try something different?  Damn, give the Bucks a defensive look that they weren't prepared for?  Full court press, zone press, or even fall back into a zone.  I dunno.......we needed to change something and we never did.  Rant over.

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13 minutes ago, rico said:

I was gonna say this earlier but I bit my tongue.  Now I am gonna get it off my chest.  I watched the entire game last night and JSMH.  Double digit deficit pretty much right off the bat.  But in the 2nd half why not try something different?  Damn, give the Bucks a defensive look that they weren't prepared for?  Full court press, zone press, or even fall back into a zone.  I dunno.......we needed to change something and we never did.  Rant over.

Dakich said yesterday for what it's worth the only way we could beat OSU was press them like crazy and keep Diop off the top of the key

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1 hour ago, IUaic said:

We have 2 players that can score consistently, Rojo and Juwan. You aren't going to be competitive in Power 5 Conference basketball with that lack of fire power. As others have said, we don't have shot blockers or shooters, so I think he is doing really well with what he has to work with. Injuries to Hartman has really hurt his outside shooting and offensive production that I believe many of us were counting on. I don't see how you could put this roster and year entirely on Archie. We are seeing the team play a much smarter brand of basketball, like we used to under Knight, that I don't see how anyone can't be excited about the future as long as recruiting is up to par or better.

I think at this point I would move Devonte into the starting lineup over Newkirk. Being offensively challenged as a team, I would roll the dice with the better offensive player.

This is largely where I am. Morgan and Rob can score, Morgan can do pretty much everything for that matter, and Rob defends at a high level, but we are otherwise lacking in depth, athleticism, outside shooting, rebounding and experience. 

Again, this year began with our returning only one double-digit scorer and our best players leaving for the pros. We did not have the incoming recruiting/frosh/soph base to handle that well, it just is what it is.

I think CAM has shown he's a very good coach, and he's already shown some good recruiting acumen, in limited time. I put very little on him at this point, and he has won us some games we would've lost last year, I think that's pretty clear.

I do want to see improvement in outside shooting coming in, better free-throw shooting, and better integration of guys like Smith. But it's his first season, with an inherited class of players after the departure of our best wing scorer/defender, best outside shooter, and Bryant (and Hartman has been injured, further hurting depth). I can't really evaluate CAM negatively at this point, I really can't find a reason to do so, and I'm optimistic that he'll have this team running well and deep in a year or two. Recruiting, obviously, will be key.

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49 minutes ago, Jerry Lundergaard said:

At this point I think that CAM has either seen enough of Moore in practice to conclude that he's not ready to contribute this year or that he's not going to be part of the program going forward 

Everyone was saying this about Smith until he was forced into the starting lineup after the Davis injury, and look at him now.

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I think Archie ( and his STAFF ) have done as good a job COACHING this edition of Indiana Basketball [as should be expected] when you consider that this season is the  first season together [ coaches & players ] and then the  loss of 6'10" Deron Davis [ who I think was trying to play with his injury before it sidelined him] Don't forget , many of the pre season prognosticaters picked IU to finish 12th . in the Big Ten Conference ! I think SOME [or too many] IU Fans expect too much  out of IU basketball !! I think the expectations may be more realistic next season when Archie AND HIS STAFF WILL HAVE more OF THEIR OWN RECRUITS on the IU playing roster !1

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I was pretty upset at Archie after the Illinois game, because I thought he gave Green waaay to long of a leash.  Of course, I understand he didn't have anyone better put in, but I was still upset Green didn't see more of the bench.  After the OSU game, I  will now concede that perhaps that  long leash helped Green with his confidence, as I thought he played markedly better.  Combine that with Newkirk's reduction in minutes, and I now think Archie is playing the long game.

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2 hours ago, FWIUFan said:

This discussion is simply premature.  Had we won against Duke and PU everyone would be singing CAM's praises.  David would have slain Goliath.  CAM is a genius.  I think with the roster we have just being in those games already proves that CAM can coach.  I think we simply have a team that can't hit FT's or 3's right now.  If that were fixed, we could easily have 4 more wins.  It was time for CTC to go.  I wish him well and appreciate what positives he brought to IUBB.  CAM now deserves some time and patience.  So far I like what I see.  I like the emphasis on D.  I like slowing the game down and working for better shots.  These young men have been playing harder and with more intensity as the season has progressed.  I will back them the rest of the season.  All we need to do now is let CAM bring in players that fit his system and then we can start to judge his performance more fairly.  

This is what I have been saying. Not sure if you're agreeing with me, or misinterpreting my posts?

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A couple comments/questions...

1. People have mentioned turnover next year. Who are some of you expecting to leave? I’m seeing 2 starting guard spots wide open (until Devonte starts on Saturday) and a couple rotation spots open. 

2. As far as talent disparity goes, I’ll agree, but it’s just one aspect...we just can’t shoot. I know that’s not breaking news. But teams flat out don’t even defend some of our players on offense (Durham, soft D on McRoberts, really soft on McSwain). Teams can play an exaggerated pack-line against us and we have no shot. And they basically do when some of those guys are in.

Last night we had a tale of 2 halves. In the first half, we got nothin from our guards. In the 2nd, we got great play from 1 guard. 1 guard playing well, in Archie’s system, had us tied in the 2nd half (33-33). Teams can win big with good guard play and below avg big men. When your guards give you nothing, it really doesn’t matter how good your bigs are. If Yogi was on this team, we beat Purdue. We may have beaten Duke. We beat Illinois easily. We beat Louisville. When Robert becomes assertive on offense and scores throughout the game, we seem to win or play it real close. 

We lack consistent offensive guard play, and that’s about all that needs to be said. And when our guards are bad, they’re baaaad. Can’t win without em. 

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1 hour ago, Riverrat said:

Negatives:

In game adjustments. I just have not seen many adjustments from the initial game plan that has turned a close game into a win. We have had multiple games that we played really well the first half and then didn't keep the momentum going for the entire game. No offense for defense subs, time outs to set up a play to isolate Morgan on the block, etc... I am sure some has happened and the execution didn't allow it to succeed, but none stand out in my mind. Crean was also perceived by many fans as bad at making adjustments.

Defense. I see tons of people saying our defense has gotten better but the advanced metrics like kenpom to not support this. We are still a sub 100 rated defense. There have been some games where we look good and others where we are terrible. The defense is different than the past decade but it is still nowhere near where it needs to be to compete at an elite level.

Archie has made several adjustments in games. I can't sit here and say they've all resulted in wins, partly because we're just not a good team. But, there have been several games where he's adjusted the defensive assignments resulting in shutting down an opponent who was killing us in the first half. The one that immediately comes to mind is  switching McRoberts off Huerter and putting RoJo on him in the second half. That played a key role in that game. I believe Huerter went scoreless the last 10 minutes. He also adjusted in the ND game by going away from Davis and going with a smaller lineup, which had a huge impact in that win. I believe the ND game was one where we were down most of the game and came back to tie/win, correct? I'm sure some adjustments played a part. 

Everyone always talks "adjustments" like they expect to see these glaring changes immediately at the start of the second half, but most times adjustments are subtle. 

Defensively, I don't really care what the advanced metrics say, IU is infinitely better defensively this year compared to last, and infinitely better the last several week than earlier in the year. Are the metrics you're looking at taking improvement throughout the season into account? Are they tracking improvement from the beginning of the season? Because with my eyes, we're extremely improved on defense compared to where the team was in Nov/Dec. Looking at season long metrics doesn't tell the entire story. 

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The fever pitched panicking may be a fun read in a few years.  Someone ought to save this thread for future reference.

It's not all that complicated.  You switched schemes on both ends.  Not a little, but a total overhaul.  The defense and ball control have gotten progressively better.  The roster is not Archie's and it is woefully deficient.  Most importantly, there is a total lack of shooting.  We throw out all these 3-16's from three and it's going to be tough to win.  

Schilling has a great resume in player development.  

I cannot guarantee that Archie will not bust, but I like the way he thinks and is setting things up in the different aspects.  It's not just offensive and defensive schemes, but also recruiting and roster construction.  He handles himself well too.  I am backing him until he has time to prove himself.  

This team was never going to have a good season this year, so if that was your expectation, I can see why you're disappointed.  It will take time.  Most of the criticisms I have seen are amusing and silly, and fairly unrealistic.  Now if in a couple of years, his schemes get beaten by a drum and he is recruiting the wrong guys, then we can blast away.  I am in the camp that this will not happen and fire away at me if it does.

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