5fouls Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 3 minutes ago, rico said: But we do know that Clemens and Bonds were users. I'm of the opinion that it was pretty prevalent, and there are many others not caught, likely even som Hall of Famers. So, while it should hurt the legacy of players like Bonds and Clemens, it should not destroy it. I feel differently about guys like Sosa and McGuire. They had no legacy without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 2 minutes ago, IUFLA said: But I don't want tothrow a good @5foulsthread off the rail...so, continue No worries. It's a legit discussion point and fits the intent of the topic perfectly, which is 'What constitutes a Hall of Famer'. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 3 minutes ago, 5fouls said: I'm of the opinion that it was pretty prevalent, and there are many others not caught, likely even som Hall of Famers. So, while it should hurt the legacy of players like Bonds and Clemens, it should not destroy it. I feel differently about guys like Sosa and McGuire. They had no legacy without it. I get it. I really, really do. But I chose to hold their "adjusted" numbers against them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 There's so much that goes into it...I mean, I don't know where Bob Gibson is on the WAR list, but of all the pitchers I've ever seen, if I had to win one game, he'd be my guy... And I say that as a Cardinal hater...The guy was just so dominant, espcially in big games... To me, the space the users take up, push someone who relied on their God given ability off the list... I mean, at least to me, it can't just be a numbers game...Sandy Koufax was absolutely dominant in the early to mid 60s...but he didn't play long enough to amass huge numbers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, IUFLA said: There's so much that goes into it...I mean, I don't know where Bob Gibson is on the WAR list, but of all the pitchers I've ever seen, if I had to win one game, he'd be my guy... And I say that as a Cardinal hater...The guy was just so dominant, espcially in big games... To me, the space the users take up, push someone who relied on their God given ability off the list... I mean, at least to me, it can't just be a numbers game...Sandy Koufax was absolutely dominant in the early to mid 60s...but he didn't play long enough to amass huge numbers... Koufax is interesting. For 6 years, he may have been the greatest pitcher that ever lived. But, do we hold that against Walter Johnson, who did it for over 20 years? Randy Johnson, like Koufax, struggled early in his career, and like Koufax, became dominant, but then was that way for a longer period of time. Will be interesting to see where koufax ultimately splits in on my team. I absolutely LOVE baseball history, an DC would not even attempt this exercise with any other sport. Edited January 27, 2023 by 5fouls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 8 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Koufax is interesting. For 6 years, he may have been the greatest pitcher that ever lived. But, do we hold that against Walter Johnson, who did it for over 20 years? Randy Johnson, like Koufax, struggled early in his career, and like Koufax, became dominant, but then was that way for a longer period of time. Will be interesting to see where koufax ultimately splits in on my team. I absolutely LOVE baseball history, an DC would not even attempt this exercise with any other sport. And that's part of the difficulty on the equation to me...Who's more deserving? Koufax or Jim Kaat? I know that Kaat stretches the boudaries a little, but he is in the HoF...and won 80 more games than Koufax did... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 4 hours ago, IUFLA said: And that's part of the difficulty on the equation to me...Who's more deserving? Koufax or Jim Kaat? I know that Kaat stretches the boudaries a little, but he is in the HoF...and won 80 more games than Koufax did... That is a bad comparison imo. Kaat actually gave up more hits than IP. Jim has clearly gotten awarded for longevity rather than dominance. But I get what you are saying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted January 28, 2023 Report Share Posted January 28, 2023 Nolan Ryan should absolutely be on the first team. Held or holds 55 all-time pitching records including most strikeouts, most no-hitters, and least hits per nine innings, all-time. His record is a product of the crappy teams he played on. He was the ERA leader one year with an 8-16 record, for example. No way he shouldn’t be 1st team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 28, 2023 Report Share Posted January 28, 2023 38 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said: Nolan Ryan should absolutely be on the first team. Held or holds 55 all-time pitching records including most strikeouts, most no-hitters, and least hits per nine innings, all-time. His record is a product of the crappy teams he played on. He was the ERA leader one year with an 8-16 record, for example. No way he shouldn’t be 1st team Ryan would be a better choice than Clemens. However I would not put Nolan on my 1st team either. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 28, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said: Nolan Ryan should absolutely be on the first team. Held or holds 55 all-time pitching records including most strikeouts, most no-hitters, and least hits per nine innings, all-time. His record is a product of the crappy teams he played on. He was the ERA leader one year with an 8-16 record, for example. No way he shouldn’t be 1st team 1 hour ago, rico said: Ryan would be a better choice than Clemens. However I would not put Nolan on my 1st team either. Sorry. Let's look beyond 'traditional' stats, and look at some advanced metrics and peer comparisons. WAR Clemens - 138.7 Ryan - 83.6 JAWS Clemens - (3rd all-time) Ryan - 62.2 (34th all time) ERA+ (100 is league average) Clemens - 143 Ryan - 112 Strikeout to Walk Ratio Clemens - 2.96 Ryan - 2.04 Cy Young Awards Clemens - 7 Ryan - 0 (Ryan was NEVER considered the best pitcher in the league, not even once, during a 27 year career. MVP Awards Clemens - 1 Ryan - 0 All Star Games Clemens - 11 Ryan - 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indykev Posted January 28, 2023 Report Share Posted January 28, 2023 Any list without Barry Bonds on it is just wrong. The best to ever play the game. If you dont include the roid era you can't include the 70's or 80's pill era. The late great Joe Morgan would tell me stories about how the trainers would put of bowls of speed so guys could have the energy to play. He was our partner at Pebble Beach 5 years in a row. He and I got into a big argument when he came out against the roid players getting into the HOF but his drug era was ok. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 28, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2023 Okay, time for the 2nd group of 14. If anything, this one is proving to be a lot tougher. A lot of what I would call 'coin flips' among 2, 3, and sometimes even 4 players. Also, note that Pujols would have been selected at 1B had he been Hall-Eligible Catcher - Ivan Rodriguez (Statistically the greatest defensive catcher of all-time. At the plate, hit over 300 homers. 13 Gold Glovers, 14 All-Star Games, and an MVP award) First Base - Jimmie Foxx (4th in Career WAR and 3rd in JAWS among 1B; .325 career Batting Average with 534 career Home Runs. Career cut short, with last significant playing time at age 33/34; 3 MVPs and 9 All-Star appearances) Second Base - Eddie Collins (2nd among 2B in WAR, WAR7, JAWS, and WAR/162. Over 3,300 career hits (12th), 8tth in career SB, 1 MVP, and led league in 2B fielding percentage 9 times) Third Base - Eddie Matthews (Played in the shadow of Henry Aaron. 2nd among modern 3rd basemen in career WAR, JAWS, and WAR/162; 512 career homers) Shortstop - Cal Ripken Jr (All-Time Consecutive Games Played Streak; 3rd in Career WAR and JAWS among SS; Defensive WAR ranks only behind Ozzie Smith and Mark Belanger) Outfield - Ted Williams (Arguably the greatest hitter ever; 8th in Career WAR among OF; Lost critical years to WWII; WAR/162 ranks only behind ruth, Trout, and Bonds among OF; 2nd all-time in OPS and OPS+ among all hitters; 2 MVP and 19 time All-Star) Outfield - Henry Aaron (5th career WAR among OF. 2nd all-time in Home Runs; All-Time leader in RBIs, 3rd all-time in hits, 1 MVP, 3 Gold Gloves and a record 25 All-Star appearances..in'59 & '60 two games were played) Outfield - Tris Speaker (6th career WAR among OF, 5th all-time in hits, All-Time leader in Doubles, Career Batting average of .345 ranks 9tth all-time; 1 MVP, career pr-dates Gold Glove and All-Star Game) Utility - Ricky Henderson (Revolutionized the way the game was played. All-time leader in SB and Runs Scored; 2nd in Career Walks, Over 3,000 hits; 1 MVP, 1 Gold Glove, and 10 All-Star appearances) S Pitcher - Tom Seaver (6th Career WAR and 8th Career JAWS among SP; 6th in career strikeouts; 311 career wins, 3 Cy Young awards and 12 All-Star Games) S Pitcher - Christy Matthewson (tied for 8th Career WAR among SP; 6th Career JAWS among SP; 373 career Wins ranks 3rd all-time; 2.13 E.R.A. ranks 9th all-time; Career pre-dates Cy Young award and All-Star game) S Pitcher - Greg Maddux (Tied for 8th Career WAR and 9th Career JAWS among SP; 355 Wins ranks 8th all-time; 10th all-time in Strikeouts; 4 Cy Young awards, 18 Gold Gloves, and 8 All-Star games) S Pitcher - Lefty Grove (7th Career WAR and JAWS among SP; .680 career Win % is 12tth all-time and best among 300 game winners; 9-time E.R.A. Champ; 1 MVP and 6 All-Star Games; Career pre-dates Cy Young and many All-Star Game opportunities) R Pitcher - Dennis Eckersley (2nd in JAWS as a RP; 390 career saves ranks 9th, despite spending first 12 years of career as starter; 8 seasons of 30+ saves after the age of 32; 5th in career Games Played by pitcher; Won both Cy Young and MVP in 1992) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 28, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2023 15 minutes ago, Indykev said: Any list without Barry Bonds on it is just wrong. The best to ever play the game. If you dont include the roid era you can't include the 70's or 80's pill era. The late great Joe Morgan would tell me stories about how the trainers would put of bowls of speed so guys could have the energy to play. He was our partner at Pebble Beach 5 years in a row. He and I got into a big argument when he came out against the roid players getting into the HOF but his drug era was ok. I'm not keeping Bonds off. He's going to make the 3rd team. I just think the 6 outfielders I selected before him were better. Since your post pr-dates my 2nd team, who are you taking off my first team to fit Bonds in? Ruth? Mays? Cobb? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 28, 2023 Report Share Posted January 28, 2023 3 hours ago, 5fouls said: Okay, time for the 2nd group of 14. If anything, this one is proving to be a lot tougher. A lot of what I would call 'coin flips' among 2, 3, and sometimes even 4 players. Also, note that Pujols would have been selected at 1B had he been Hall-Eligible Catcher - Ivan Rodriguez (Statistically the greatest defensive catcher of all-time. At the plate, hit over 300 homers. 13 Gold Glovers, 14 All-Star Games, and an MVP award) First Base - Jimmie Foxx (4th in Career WAR and 3rd in JAWS among 1B; .325 career Batting Average with 534 career Home Runs. Career cut short, with last significant playing time at age 33/34; 3 MVPs and 9 All-Star appearances) Second Base - Eddie Collins (2nd among 2B in WAR, WAR7, JAWS, and WAR/162. Over 3,300 career hits (12th), 8tth in career SB, 1 MVP, and led league in 2B fielding percentage 9 times) Third Base - Eddie Matthews (Played in the shadow of Henry Aaron. 2nd among modern 3rd basemen in career WAR, JAWS, and WAR/162; 512 career homers) Shortstop - Cal Ripken Jr (All-Time Consecutive Games Played Streak; 3rd in Career WAR and JAWS among SS; Defensive WAR ranks only behind Ozzie Smith and Mark Belanger) Outfield - Ted Williams (Arguably the greatest hitter ever; 8th in Career WAR among OF; Lost critical years to WWII; WAR/162 ranks only behind ruth, Trout, and Bonds among OF; 2nd all-time in OPS and OPS+ among all hitters; 2 MVP and 19 time All-Star) Outfield - Henry Aaron (5th career WAR among OF. 2nd all-time in Home Runs; All-Time leader in RBIs, 3rd all-time in hits, 1 MVP, 3 Gold Gloves and a record 25 All-Star appearances..in'59 & '60 two games were played) Outfield - Tris Speaker (6th career WAR among OF, 5th all-time in hits, All-Time leader in Doubles, Career Batting average of .345 ranks 9tth all-time; 1 MVP, career pr-dates Gold Glove and All-Star Game) Utility - Ricky Henderson (Revolutionized the way the game was played. All-time leader in SB and Runs Scored; 2nd in Career Walks, Over 3,000 hits; 1 MVP, 1 Gold Glove, and 10 All-Star appearances) S Pitcher - Tom Seaver (6th Career WAR and 8th Career JAWS among SP; 6th in career strikeouts; 311 career wins, 3 Cy Young awards and 12 All-Star Games) S Pitcher - Christy Matthewson (tied for 8th Career WAR among SP; 6th Career JAWS among SP; 373 career Wins ranks 3rd all-time; 2.13 E.R.A. ranks 9th all-time; Career pre-dates Cy Young award and All-Star game) S Pitcher - Greg Maddux (Tied for 8th Career WAR and 9th Career JAWS among SP; 355 Wins ranks 8th all-time; 10th all-time in Strikeouts; 4 Cy Young awards, 18 Gold Gloves, and 8 All-Star games) S Pitcher - Lefty Grove (7th Career WAR and JAWS among SP; .680 career Win % is 12tth all-time and best among 300 game winners; 9-time E.R.A. Champ; 1 MVP and 6 All-Star Games; Career pre-dates Cy Young and many All-Star Game opportunities) R Pitcher - Dennis Eckersley (2nd in JAWS as a RP; 390 career saves ranks 9th, despite spending first 12 years of career as starter; 8 seasons of 30+ saves after the age of 32; 5th in career Games Played by pitcher; Won both Cy Young and MVP in 1992) I like that you put Ricky on the 2nd team. I have felt he is always overlooked when discussing the greats. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 29, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2023 Just now, rico said: I like that you put Ricky on the 2nd team. I have felt he is always overlooked when discussing the greats. Agreed. One of the most unique players of all time, and he changed the pre-steroid game more than anyone outside of Babe Ruth and Jackie Robinson. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 29, 2023 Report Share Posted January 29, 2023 7 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Agreed. One of the most unique players of all time, and he changed the pre-steroid game more than anyone outside of Babe Ruth and Jackie Robinson. I always wonder about 2 things with Ricky: 1) How many more HRs would he have had if he had played somewhere other than Oakland? 2) How many more hits would he have had if he batted lefty? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 29, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2023 7 minutes ago, rico said: I always wonder about 2 things with Ricky: 1) How many more HRs would he have had if he had played somewhere other than Oakland? 2) How many more hits would he have had if he batted lefty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 29, 2023 Report Share Posted January 29, 2023 4 hours ago, Indykev said: Any list without Barry Bonds on it is just wrong. The best to ever play the game. If you dont include the roid era you can't include the 70's or 80's pill era. The late great Joe Morgan would tell me stories about how the trainers would put of bowls of speed so guys could have the energy to play. He was our partner at Pebble Beach 5 years in a row. He and I got into a big argument when he came out against the roid players getting into the HOF but his drug era was ok. Anyone hit 70 HRs on speed? Steroids perverted the numbers so badly that schleps like Brady Anderson hit 50... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indykev Posted January 29, 2023 Report Share Posted January 29, 2023 14 hours ago, 5fouls said: I'm not keeping Bonds off. He's going to make the 3rd team. I just think the 6 outfielders I selected before him were better. Since your post pr-dates my 2nd team, who are you taking off my first team to fit Bonds in? Ruth? Mays? Cobb? Ruth or Cobb pick one. Played against shoe salesmen. lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indykev Posted January 29, 2023 Report Share Posted January 29, 2023 10 hours ago, IUFLA said: Anyone hit 70 HRs on speed? Steroids perverted the numbers so badly that schleps like Brady Anderson hit 50... You still had to hit it. Roids dont help the eyes or hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 29, 2023 Report Share Posted January 29, 2023 2 hours ago, Indykev said: You still had to hit it. Roids dont help the eyes or hands. It appears that the BBWAA doesn't see it the same way that you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 29, 2023 Report Share Posted January 29, 2023 2 hours ago, Indykev said: You still had to hit it. Roids dont help the eyes or hands. They hit it before... Just not as far. And that's a product of the strength gained from juicing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 29, 2023 Report Share Posted January 29, 2023 49 minutes ago, IUFLA said: They hit it before... Just not as far. And that's a product of the strength gained from juicing. Juicing? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 29, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2023 4 hours ago, Indykev said: Ruth or Cobb pick one. Played against shoe salesmen. lol. Ruth is the greatest player of all time. He did what he did in an era when no one else came close. As great as Bonds was, McGuire, Sosa, etc. were doing similar things. Ruth did it hitting and was a great pitcher as well. The balls he hit were not juiced. And they did not bring a new one into play after every out. The balls were dirty and with no stadium lights, difficult to see once the sun started to go down. Furthermore, Ruth SAVED baseball after the Black Sox scandal. Bonds was Exhibit #1 in a scandal that threatened to RUIN baseball. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 29, 2023 Report Share Posted January 29, 2023 6 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Ruth is the greatest player of all time. He did what he did in an era when no one else came close. As great as Bonds was, McGuire, Sosa, etc. were doing similar things. Ruth did it hitting and was a great pitcher as well. The balls he hit were not juiced. And they did not bring a new one into play after every out. The balls were dirty and with no stadium lights, difficult to see once the sun started to go down. Furthermore, Ruth SAVED baseball after the Black Sox scandal. Bonds was Exhibit #1 in a scandal that threatened to RUIN baseball. Ruth out-homered every MLB team except for the NL Phillies in 1920 and outhomered every other AL team in 1927...Every other team...let that sink in... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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