The “What are we selling to recruits” thread…

[MoyeCowbell]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

I wish we would/could have more in-depth discussions that dont result in one side or the other taking offense.

+1000

Good discussions can educate, either the opposing party or oneself. Having an opinion is important ("stand for something or fall for anything") and it's absolutely worthwhile to share with others. I love that we have a diverse set of voices, and wish more people piped in to share their thoughts, tbh.

I see many instances where an unpopular opinion stated on this board is then volley back and taken as a personal affront against one's character. Discourse & opinion don't have to equal self-worth & esteem.

[FKIM01]

3 hours ago, rico said:

Don't be discouraged about posting.  I enjoy reading your stuff.

I second this.  We don't have to always agree for me to enjoy reading your stuff.

[IUFLA]

Amid all this kerfuffle, I needed something therapeutic...

Watched last seasons IU @ Purdue game...

Better than Mom's chicken noodle soup 🙂

[Initial79]

9 hours ago, kyhoosier29 said:

I don’t think you’re getting it either. People appreciate the perspective, the experiences, and the OPINION. I’m not telling you you’re wrong. I’m telling you that it’s your opinion. Some people don’t see it the same way you do. Ware may not see the facilities argument that you see. Maybe he does and like you said he chose IU simply bc of Woody. But depending on what you’re looking for as a recruit or what fancies somebody your experiences aren’t the same. You saying it’s a fact because you’ve seen the differences doesn’t make it so. Apples to oranges on the orthopedic comparison. I was a D1 baseball player in the SEC and saw a lot of different facilities. There are pluses and minuses at every school and those are my opinion only. I’ve also been in Cook Hall and in the men’s weight room at IU, so I have a little bit of a reference too but doesn’t mean my opinions on them are fact. That’s all I’m saying. Too many variables to make an absolute statement. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I will try one last time to get my point across in the hope that many will understand. I am all for discourse but my difference of opinion (not fact) has been met with a ton of back lash. I am sure that was not intended by many while I do feel some directly did attack. “Who are you, why does your opinion matter, you don’t know anything, etc”.  It is not always easy to see when you are not the one getting reply after reply directly. 

I believe many opinions have been formed based on “sound bites” of a post or 2 and not the whole picture.  I know that as well with the amount of times I had to re-explain things like -“yes, I know UNC, Duke etc do well, this wasn’t about them and fyi.. IU is not Duke.” 

- I never said or feel my opinion is the only one nor that this was 100% the reason for losing a recruit. 

- I never said every recruit cares about this (actually said the opposite) but there are ones who make decisions based on that. Especially if things are a tie etc. 

- I did state things like our NIL is not that close to Tenn. and provided a link to back that up. Yes, they will use a lot for football but their target is $25 million a year in funding. They could give every BB guy $500k and still have $20 mil for football. 

- I did state that our facilities are nowhere close to what some of these big money schools have and provided a great example video with Texas Tech (I do wonder how many took the time to watch it). That is a football school and it would be fact that their facility in that video well outdoes IU. 

This all started on here (to be fair, Twitter as well) when Ledlum committed and really hit level 11 when Knecht did as well. I saw many, many people saying things like - “how are we losing to football schools. IU has the best facilities, top NIL, one of the best campuses in the country. This should be an easy sell and the staff is striking out. Woody really messed up with this knee surgery” some version of this was stated by a huge majority of fans.  I would go as far as saying when you take social media into account, the majority of fans believe this.  

All I wanted to do was provide some counter point to those beliefs. I think many fans have rose colored glasses and see IU for something it isnt.  The facilities are fine while not world class and this might not matter to some. Our NIL is very good but not quite elite there either. Our campus is great but not everyone wants a college town. The results have been just ok while improving.  You add all that up and I don’t think it is crazy at all that we lost out on 2 guys to Tenn. who is one of those schools who kind of have an edge right now on IU.  But does it even matter? Do we really need every guy to say yes? 

It was my belief that if more people understood some of this and were open to new knowledge that maybe they could take off the rose colored glasses and stop blaming Woody.  I truly believe he is the best thing we have to sell right now.  The “selling the history of IU” bit is a tough thing to sell. 

As stated before, I am not worried even a little. I see them still involved in many options. They will land a great squad but fans need to be patient and let it play out. 

[5fouls]

Some of the things IU should be selling that aren't getting a lot of discussion here are:

• Woodson's NBA experience and contacts
• The transformation of TJD from a fringe draft pick to pick to someone almost guaranteed to have a spot in he NBA
• Hood-Schifino's development into a mid-first-round draft pick.

I don't know what career goals guys like Ledlum and Knecht have.  But, if one of those goals is that they want to play professional basketball, I think IU has some selling points many other schools don't.  The days of Archie Miller wasting talent at IU are over.  

[IUFLA]

One thing that might play into getting or not getting a recruit is the way Coach Woodson thinks about the college basketball experience...

In the "Outside the Locker Room" video, Miller Kopp says Woody's explanation is real simple...

School, basketball, and NIL... In that order...

That's not something some (a lot?) of kids want to hear...Kopp came to IU a month before NIL became a reality, but he said he was offered nothing more than the opportunity to compete for playing time... And he definitely took advantage of it... 

Not a knock on Woody at all... As a matter of fact, that's the way I'd prefer it. But it's naive to think that speech is going to appeal to every highly rated kid... 

Edited April 25, 2023 by IUFLA

[13th&Jackson]

Wasn’t exactly sure where to post this, but it certainly falls into the world of recruiting and the big money world of elite youth athletics. IMG Academy is being sold to a private equity firm for $1.25 billion 

https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/endeavor-sell-img-academy-private-equity-group-eqt-2023-04-25/

[NotIThatLives]

1 minute ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Wasn’t exactly sure where to post this, but it certainly falls into the world of recruiting and the big money world of elite youth athletics. IMG Academy is being sold to a private equity firm for $1.25 billion 

https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/endeavor-sell-img-academy-private-equity-group-eqt-2023-04-25/

Definitely a thing that makes you go huh?  Do they even generate a revenue?

[13th&Jackson]

34 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Definitely a thing that makes you go huh?  Do they even generate a revenue?

They are for-profit. Reportedly close to $90M in annual revenue. On campus tuition and housing is $90k per year, but they have on-line business as well. 
 

• Boarding school and camps on its cutting-edge campus in Bradenton, Florida
• IMG Academy+ online coaching with a focus on personal development through the lens of sport and performance
• NCSA College Recruiting, providing tools, coaching and access to a network of 40,000 college coaches

IMG Academy is the only education brand directly responsible for filling one-quarter of all college roster spots on an annual basis. In 2021 alone, IMG Academy helped place 30,000 kids into college.

Edited April 25, 2023 by 13th&Jackson

[NotIThatLives]

27 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

They are for-profit. Reportedly close to $90M in annual revenue. On campus tuition and housing is $90k per year, but they have on-line business as well. 
 

• Boarding school and camps on its cutting-edge campus in Bradenton, Florida
• IMG Academy+ online coaching with a focus on personal development through the lens of sport and performance
• NCSA College Recruiting, providing tools, coaching and access to a network of 40,000 college coaches

IMG Academy is the only education brand directly responsible for filling one-quarter of all college roster spots on an annual basis. In 2021 alone, IMG Academy helped place 30,000 kids into college.

Dang, they have built a brand.  I can't imagine profit is super high though.  

[13th&Jackson]

5 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Dang, they have built a brand.  I can't imagine profit is super high though.  

Probably not at the moment. I would think the strategy would be to really monetize the on-line instruction and then pull the on-line kids and coaches into camps. 

[NotIThatLives]

10 hours ago, Initial79 said:

I will try one last time to get my point across in the hope that many will understand. I am all for discourse but my difference of opinion (not fact) has been met with a ton of back lash. I am sure that was not intended by many while I do feel some directly did attack. “Who are you, why does your opinion matter, you don’t know anything, etc”.  It is not always easy to see when you are not the one getting reply after reply directly. 

I believe many opinions have been formed based on “sound bites” of a post or 2 and not the whole picture.  I know that as well with the amount of times I had to re-explain things like -“yes, I know UNC, Duke etc do well, this wasn’t about them and fyi.. IU is not Duke.” 

- I never said or feel my opinion is the only one nor that this was 100% the reason for losing a recruit. 

- I never said every recruit cares about this (actually said the opposite) but there are ones who make decisions based on that. Especially if things are a tie etc. 

- I did state things like our NIL is not that close to Tenn. and provided a link to back that up. Yes, they will use a lot for football but their target is $25 million a year in funding. They could give every BB guy $500k and still have $20 mil for football. 

- I did state that our facilities are nowhere close to what some of these big money schools have and provided a great example video with Texas Tech (I do wonder how many took the time to watch it). That is a football school and it would be fact that their facility in that video well outdoes IU. 

This all started on here (to be fair, Twitter as well) when Ledlum committed and really hit level 11 when Knecht did as well. I saw many, many people saying things like - “how are we losing to football schools. IU has the best facilities, top NIL, one of the best campuses in the country. This should be an easy sell and the staff is striking out. Woody really messed up with this knee surgery” some version of this was stated by a huge majority of fans.  I would go as far as saying when you take social media into account, the majority of fans believe this.  

All I wanted to do was provide some counter point to those beliefs. I think many fans have rose colored glasses and see IU for something it isnt.  The facilities are fine while not world class and this might not matter to some. Our NIL is very good but not quite elite there either. Our campus is great but not everyone wants a college town. The results have been just ok while improving.  You add all that up and I don’t think it is crazy at all that we lost out on 2 guys to Tenn. who is one of those schools who kind of have an edge right now on IU.  But does it even matter? Do we really need every guy to say yes? 

It was my belief that if more people understood some of this and were open to new knowledge that maybe they could take off the rose colored glasses and stop blaming Woody.  I truly believe he is the best thing we have to sell right now.  The “selling the history of IU” bit is a tough thing to sell. 

As stated before, I am not worried even a little. I see them still involved in many options. They will land a great squad but fans need to be patient and let it play out. 

Don't the collectives pay across all sports?  UT takes women's basketball very serious.   Baseball, gymnastics.   I'm pretty sure across the board they take pride.  Clearly 25 million is serious business.   Since these are "charities" it's probably public record somewhere.  We have no clue if each basketball player is getting 500k and the football team would still have 20.  It's likely 99.99999% chance it's not happening like that.  I'd bet a pay check IU basketball players are getting more cash flow than UT basketball players.  

Edited April 25, 2023 by NotIThatLives

[NotIThatLives]

21 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Probably not at the moment. I would think the strategy would be to really monetize the on-line instruction and then pull the on-line kids and coaches into camps. 

Got curious just for reference and in no way are things equal in enrollment and other things.  IMG has 1040 students.  A revenue of 90 million.  Hamilton Heights has a little over 2000 students and a revenue of around 35 million.  

Doesn't IMG pay the football big money?

[IndyResident16]

41 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

It's likely 99.99999% chance it's not happening like that.  I'd bet a pay check IU basketball players are getting more cash flow than UT basketball players.  

Bet more than a paycheck. IU's collectives prioritize basketball, Tennessee and the rest of the SEC (minus Kentucky and maybe Missouri) don't. It's why IU is going to continue to struggle in football. A surplus in UT collectives doesn't equal better pay for basketball players, it means more money towards football to compete with the rest of the SEC collectives. UT has $8million committed to their incoming freshman QB alone. SEC schools like Arkansas and Tennessee DO NOT CARE about basketball in the general sense. They appreciate good basketball teams when they have them but they don't get hell bent out of shape when they struggle. If a UT or Arkansas endured a stretch like IU did under the early Crean years or even the Archie years when they struggle to go .500, attendance would average less than 10k. 

 

[IndyResident16]

5 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said:

Bet more than a paycheck. IU's collectives prioritize basketball, Tennessee and the rest of the SEC (minus Kentucky and maybe Missouri) don't. It's why IU is going to continue to struggle in football. A surplus in UT collectives doesn't equal better pay for basketball players, it means more money towards football to compete with the rest of the SEC collectives. UT has $8million committed to their incoming freshman QB alone. SEC schools like Arkansas and Tennessee DO NOT CARE about basketball in the general sense. They appreciate good basketball teams when they have them but they don't get hell bent out of shape when they struggle. If a UT or Arkansas endured a stretch like IU did under the early Crean years or even the Archie years when they struggle to go .500, attendance would average less than 10k. 

 

If you're a prospective basketball player looking to maximize your NIL output and brand, there's only a handful of programs in the entire country who have IU beat in that department. And neither of them are Arkansas or Tennessee no matter how many different ways a certain poster tries to tell you otherwise. 

[Initial79]

1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

Don't the collectives pay across all sports?  UT takes women's basketball very serious.   Baseball, gymnastics.   I'm pretty sure across the board they take pride.  Clearly 25 million is serious business.   Since these are "charities" it's probably public record somewhere.  We have no clue if each basketball player is getting 500k and the football team would still have 20.  It's likely 99.99999% chance it's not happening like that.  I'd bet a pay check IU basketball players are getting more cash flow than UT basketball players.  

I only put that in there as it is reality that football would carry more percentage of the $25 million. Doesn’t mean they don’t have more than enough for other areas. That wasn’t a statement of fact. I even said “for example.” I would not be so quick to give away your money. 

These are not all charities. Some are for profit business like a 401k that has various investment. Tenn. laws give it the most flexibility there is. 

IU NiL program is fine but is not what fans think it is. Keep in mind that NIL from collectives is only part of the picture. The highest NIL earners are actually some female athletes. LSU gymnastics makes huge bank. 

Be careful of the one liners like Tenn QB making $8 mil and Hunter D. Going to be offered $4 mil. Lot of people in that business were quick to squash those but it is easy to find those headlines still posted. The internet where everything said is true 

[Initial79]

3 hours ago, IUFLA said:

One thing that might play into getting or not getting a recruit is the way Coach Woodson thinks about the college basketball experience...

In the "Outside the Locker Room" video, Miller Kopp says Woody's explanation is real simple...

School, basketball, and NIL... In that order...

That's not something some (a lot?) of kids want to hear...Kopp came to IU a month before NIL became a reality, but he said he was offered nothing more than the opportunity to compete for playing time... And he definitely took advantage of it... 

Not a knock on Woody at all... As a matter of fact, that's the way I'd prefer it. But it's naive to think that speech is going to appeal to every highly rated kid... 

I would agree but he is also no dummy. He knows it is important and I am sure he continues to evolve there. I mean, plenty have said this was one of the main issues with Fife. He didn’t want to really get behind this. 

[IndyResident16]

7 minutes ago, Initial79 said:

Be careful of the one liners like Tenn QB making $8 mil and Hunter D. Going to be offered $4 mil. Lot of people in that business were quick to squash those but it is easy to find those headlines still posted. The internet where everything said is true 

The Tennessee collective "The Volunteer Collective Club" brokered the deal between Iamaleava and Force Factor. 

[rico]

1 hour ago, IndyResident16 said:

Bet more than a paycheck. IU's collectives prioritize basketball, Tennessee and the rest of the SEC (minus Kentucky and maybe Missouri) don't. It's why IU is going to continue to struggle in football. A surplus in UT collectives doesn't equal better pay for basketball players, it means more money towards football to compete with the rest of the SEC collectives. UT has $8million committed to their incoming freshman QB alone. SEC schools like Arkansas and Tennessee DO NOT CARE about basketball in the general sense. They appreciate good basketball teams when they have them but they don't get hell bent out of shape when they struggle. If a UT or Arkansas endured a stretch like IU did under the early Crean years or even the Archie years when they struggle to go .500, attendance would average less than 10k. 

 

Arkansas and Tennessee CARE about their basketball.

[IndyResident16]

Just now, rico said:

Arkansas and Tennessee CARE about their basketball.

Not remotely close in the form that Indiana does. No comparison.

[rico]

3 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said:

Not remotely close in the form that Indiana does. No comparison.

LOL.  You said they don't care.  I say they do.

[IndyResident16]

3 minutes ago, rico said:

LOL.  You said they don't care.  I say they do.

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. Everybody is allowed one.

[rico]

8 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said:

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. Everybody is allowed one.

Right back at ya.

[IUFLA]

1 hour ago, Initial79 said:

I would agree but he is also no dummy. He knows it is important and I am sure he continues to evolve there. I mean, plenty have said this was one of the main issues with Fife. He didn’t want to really get behind this. 

I'm sure it's in the conversation... 

[bluegrassIU]

Can I have one of those opinion things?