American Education System

[KoB2011]

2 minutes ago, rico said:

Yep, you are going to use it every day of your life.

I read a lot more than I do math. 

[mrflynn03]

4 hours ago, Leathernecks said:

Just got home s n have some timeeconomyo gi $ve a thought out answer.   

To be transparent going into this, I teach high school chemistry and physics, so I am admittedly biased a little bit.  It isn't without research into it though, so hopefully it is justified.

I think the best small scale change whether it is local, state, or national would be to invest more into STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics).  I think the biggest mistake in our education system was pushing for all kinds of testing in Math and English.  I'm not a fan of testing in general, but the insistence on testing led to other things getting pushed to the side.  So many things over the years have been cut or pushed to the side because we have to spend months preparing for testing!

We obviously need to learn English to be capable members of society, but I would love to see it more incorporated into other subjects (lab reports in science, historical papers in history classes, etc.).  Our society isn't going to advance because of the next great novel.  It's going to advance because of the next great engineer/scientist. I think too often English class means spending weeks reading books that nobody gives a damn about (and usually doesn't read anyways).  And like I said, I don't mean to downplay English because it is necessary to be able to read and write and all that good stuff that comes along with it.

The beauty of STEM is that it isn't just something that is taught in science, math and technology classes.  It can be incorporated into other classes to make them better.  One of our English classes has kids write a paper on a recipe to work on their procedural writing.  They have to explain why that recipe is important to them, and then they have to present to the class the directions as if they were teaching them to make the recipe.  Now, that's a much better lesson than just having everybody write about the same thing and explain the same thing, but here is an example of what a STEM lesson teaching the same English concepts would look like.

Students would read a short story that has a survival concept.  Think something along the lines of Hatchet, but a 5 minute survival story.  Students would read the story, and then each student would have to go outside and build their own shelter that has to house a plastic army man.  They can use whatever they find outside.  Sticks, leaves, garbage, mud, grass, etc.  Completely open to each student to make their own thing.  They would need to take notes the whole time they are doing it.  Once they finish their shelter, they would need to write a paper about it.  What went well, what didn't go well, how well it would work as a shelter.  They would then write out step by step directions for how someone would make the same shelter.  The next day, everyone switches their directions with another person, and they have to try to recreate the other person's shelter based only on the directions they were given.  Whatever couple recreates each other's shelters the best wins.  That's the difference between teaching STEM and teaching English.  Students still get the exact same English concepts out of the lesson, but there is a big engineering aspect to it that would greatly increase engagement, understanding, and other skills.

The idea of STEM is meant to teach students to become creators of content instead of consumers of content.  Teaching STEM is a wild idea.  There are lessons where I have no idea what the heck is going on and I sit back and let the kids figure it out on their own.  Learning about velocity in physics, our coding club got a Sphero Sprk ball, and I placed X's in the hallway and told the kids they had to program the ball to land on the X.  I am definitely not an expert in coding, but I just sat back and let the kids do it all.  They didn't know how to code either, but they figured it out.  They had to measure distances to get out the door, and the code they input was how long it would roll and what speed it would roll at.  That would get them to their desired distance.  Way better than just saying "a ball traveled a distance of 4 meters at a speed of 2 m/s.  How long does it take to get there?"  Still learn the same concepts, but student engagement is through the roof.

I know this was a very long answer to a short question, but I don't think it would be that difficult to incorporate STEM into all classes.  Its also something that can easily be done without jumping through a lot of governmental hoops.  I did a presentation within our district about STEM if anybody wants more information or a link to the presentation.  I also have a document with a ton of links I found for different grades and subjects if anybody is interested in that.

I agree comletely with this. I have a Bs In biology and am a big proponent of STEM studies as well as history/civics(which may not exist as I know It)

I still remember shop classes with wood and metalwork and home economics  

Do these even exist anymore?  I graduated H.S. In 2003, seems like alot has changed   

 

[Leathernecks]

8 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I can understand not needing English for four years in high school I suppose, but there needs to be a year or two of literature. 

I think English should stay with four years in high school, but I would love to see a lot more emphasis on writing and speaking.  Those are the important skills that will be used later in life.  Like I said earlier, I think education needs to be more about creating content than consuming it.  More papers where they have to defend an argument or research something and write about it, more presentations, more debates, etc.  Things that require critical thinking instead of writing answers down on a worksheet after reading a chapter in a book.

Then book reports can be mixed in with that, but I think it needs to be a book the kids want to read.  Most kids don't read the classics anyways.  They use spark notes or something similar to skim the book in an hour.  From what I see, trying to force classics on kids is a good way to get them to hate reading.

I agree that they should read those books, but I think they should be read outside of school or as part of a book club.\

The easiest way to get kids interested is by making something relevant to their life, and unfortunately Shakespeare/mythology/Steinbeck aren't relevant to today's kids.

I think a cool project would be to have students write a review of something.  Could be a video game, a movie, a restaurant, something they bought off Amazon.  Something they are exposed to on a daily basis.  The kid in the back always trying to play games isn't going to read To Kill a Mockingbird and write a paper about it, but have him write a review about Fortnite?  That thing would be done tomorrow.

[Leathernecks]

Similarly to English, I would love to see more outside the box thinking in Math.

A cool project I just thought of for a Statistics class would be to create a program that predicts the winner of the NCAA Tournament.  They would have to create a program that includes at least 5 points of data (points score, points allowed, strength of schedule, assist to turnover ratio, regular season wins, etc.), and then they have to figure out a formula that ranks the teams based on the data they use.  To make it a little more in depth, no two categories could have the same weight.  They could create their formula in Excel or Google Sheets and plug in their data for all the teams in the tourney and it will spit out a winner for each game.  It could be a competition to see who picks the best bracket.

Just a little more into creating the content instead of consuming it.  It would be great practice with Excel or Google Sheets too which is an awesome technological resource.

[Leathernecks]

7 hours ago, mrflynn03 said:

I agree comletely with this. I have a Bs In biology and am a big proponent of STEM studies as well as history/civics(which may not exist as I know It)

I still remember shop classes with wood and metalwork and home economics  

Do these even exist anymore?  I graduated H.S. In 2003, seems like alot has changed   

 

We do have a few different history classes and a civics class.  Not really sure how they compare to what they used to be.

One cool history lesson I saw one of our teachers do was to have the kids reenact a famous thing that happened in history.  They made a green screen to stand in front of and dressed up like Hitler.  Using an app on their phone, they were able to put in background videos from the time.  I forget if they had to reenact one of Hitler's speeches or if they had to make up their own, but I still thought it was a pretty cool idea that made them think about it.  Got them using technology in an up to date way too which was pretty cool.

We have shop and home ec.  They aren't called that anymore, but we still have them.

[Reacher]

12 hours ago, Leathernecks said:

I think the best small scale change whether it is local, state, or national would be to invest more into STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics).  I think the biggest mistake in our education system was pushing for all kinds of testing in Math and English.  I'm not a fan of testing in general, but the insistence on testing led to other things getting pushed to the side.  So many things over the years have been cut or pushed to the side because we have to spend months preparing for testing!

Couldn't agree more!  I think the focus on testing has been a disaster. I hear about my kids spending all this time preparing for and taking tests. That is time not spent learning other things. The only thing I would add is updating the curiculum with more technology like robotics, coding, VR, AI, etc. It seems that kids should leave school with some idea of these things as they will likely play a profound role in shaping their lives. In the Rethinking Education article i linked, they propose "modules" which I think follow along with much of what you said and will help prepare kids for the life ahead-

Module 1: Storytelling/Communications 

Module 2: Passions

Module 3: Curiosity & Experimentation

Module 4: Persistence/Grit

Module 5: Technology Exposure

Module 6: Empathy

Module 7: Ethics/Moral Dilemmas

 

[HoosierFaithful]

17 hours ago, Leathernecks said:

Are you thinking small scale by an individual school district or small scale by the government?

follow your heart.

[HoosierFaithful]

4 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

follow your heart.

and I now see that you did.  What a great answer!  Thanks for sharing.

[Leathernecks]

6 hours ago, Reacher said:

Couldn't agree more!  I think the focus on testing has been a disaster. I hear about my kids spending all this time preparing for and taking tests. That is time not spent learning other things. The only thing I would add is updating the curiculum with more technology like robotics, coding, VR, AI, etc. It seems that kids should leave school with some idea of these things as they will likely play a profound role in shaping their lives. In the Rethinking Education article i linked, they propose "modules" which I think follow along with much of what you said and will help prepare kids for the life ahead-

Module 1: Storytelling/Communications 

Module 2: Passions

Module 3: Curiosity & Experimentation

Module 4: Persistence/Grit

Module 5: Technology Exposure

Module 6: Empathy

Module 7: Ethics/Moral Dilemmas

 

I see too often that teachers aren't worried about being the best teacher they can be, they're worried about how well their students will do on the test.  I know Finland is often thought of by a lot of people as having the best system, so I've been looking up what they do.  A big part is the people they get to teach.  I saw an article that said most of their teachers are chosen from the top 10% of college graduates, and once chosen go on to get a masters degree in education.  Teaching in the US is thought of to be such an undesirable job that a lot of times schools are stuck with whoever they can find.  There is probably a very small percentage of teachers who would be considered "top 10% students."

Because we're often stuck with such crappy teachers, that's why testing had to come about.  We (America) knows we hire bad teachers, so there needs to be something in place to hold those bad teachers accountable (standards and testing).  Finland knows they hire great teachers, so their teachers are "trusted to do whatever it takes to turn young lives around."

"Besides Finnish, math and science, the first graders take music, art, sports, religion and textile handcrafts."  Meanwhile, US students are studying "how not to piss themselves" in first grade.

"English begins in third grade, Swedish in fourth. By fifth grade the children have added biology, geography, history, physics and chemistry."

Not everything they do would work here, but we don't even seem to be caring much about actually making a change.  I'd love to see a full scale overhaul to something like what your article said or something like what some of the more successful countries do.
 

[FritzIam4IU]

11 minutes ago, Leathernecks said:

I see too often that teachers aren't worried about being the best teacher they can be, they're worried about how well their students will do on the test.  I know Finland is often thought of by a lot of people as having the best system, so I've been looking up what they do.  A big part is the people they get to teach.  I saw an article that said most of their teachers are chosen from the top 10% of college graduates, and once chosen go on to get a masters degree in education.  Teaching in the US is thought of to be such an undesirable job that a lot of times schools are stuck with whoever they can find.  There is probably a very small percentage of teachers who would be considered "top 10% students."

Because we're often stuck with such crappy teachers, that's why testing had to come about.  We (America) knows we hire bad teachers, so there needs to be something in place to hold those bad teachers accountable (standards and testing).  Finland knows they hire great teachers, so their teachers are "trusted to do whatever it takes to turn young lives around."

"Besides Finnish, math and science, the first graders take music, art, sports, religion and textile handcrafts."  Meanwhile, US students are studying "how not to piss themselves" in first grade.

"English begins in third grade, Swedish in fourth. By fifth grade the children have added biology, geography, history, physics and chemistry."

Not everything they do would work here, but we don't even seem to be caring much about actually making a change.  I'd love to see a full scale overhaul to something like what your article said or something like what some of the more successful countries do.
 

Good points regarding Finland, and if I remember correctly, Japan places an emphasis on teachers...and they are very well respected.

This is a great thread...my wife and I actually met in grad school. We both have our masters degree in education, and neither one of us teach anymore...and I just crossed over the wrong side of 40 while she is still in 30s.

[Hoosierhoopster]

18 hours ago, Leathernecks said:

I'm not really up on what other systems are out there for an education that isn't one size fits all, so I'm not really sure where to start on that one.  If you want to put a link to something I'll take a look at it and see what I think.

There are several studies etc. out there on the pitfalls of the one size fits all education system, and alternatives. Here's one of the changing paradigms pieces I like --

 

And there are of course lots of different ways of schooling employed around the world, some considered much more successful in actually "teaching" students, than the US model. Very general, brief article -- http://hijacked.com.au/different-education-systems-around-the-world

 

[Leathernecks]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

There are several studies etc. out there on the pitfalls of the one size fits all education system, and alternatives. Here's one of the changing paradigms pieces I like --

 

And there are of course lots of different ways of schooling employed around the world, some considered much more successful in actually "teaching" students, than the US model. Very general, brief article -- http://hijacked.com.au/different-education-systems-around-the-world

 

I remember watching his TED talk a few years ago.  I really like it.

I would love to see an entire reform of the educational system in this country.  There is enough data now to know that what we are doing isn't the best system, and it is pretty obvious there are systems that are better than ours.

I don't want to get too political, but there isn't a lot that schools can do at a local level, so it is going to have to come from the government. I think we're getting close to the point where something is going to have to change.  Enough people are starting to figure out that education needs to be better.  People know our country is behind.  People are starting to see some of the things other countries are doing, and what some of the schools in our country are doing.  Once people see those things, there is very little doubt that it is an upgrade over what we currently have.  I think (hope) it is only a matter of time before we have a presidential candidate who runs on an educational reform platform.  Even if they don't win, I think it would make some noise and get people talking more about our education.

[Reacher]

Kudos to the University of WI Stevens Point for restructuring their curriculum (eliminating many liberal arts majors and even firing tenured professors in those departments and expanding STEM and vocational offerings) and KUDOS TO HSN members who were ahead of the curve in recognizing the need for change!  

https://www.wpr.org/sites/default/files/Point Forward.pdf

 

 

[Mac]

On 3/13/2018 at 8:45 PM, Leathernecks said:

Our society isn't going to advance because of the next great novel.

I haven't read the whole thread in detail, and I'm sure I'm the Lone Ranger here, but, respectfully, I believe the above sentence misses the point.

I'm no educator, but I figured out at some point after high school that language is, in fact, the tool of thought. The better one understands how language works and how it is capable of constructing things that have never been conceived before, the better and more clearly one can think about anything and everything. This understanding comes about through a study of literature, imo.

The English language has a lot of faults, but it's one of the greatest things we have been given. That's why I believe English literature should be emphasized in education.

 

[Leathernecks]

17 hours ago, Mac said:

I haven't read the whole thread in detail, and I'm sure I'm the Lone Ranger here, but, respectfully, I believe the above sentence misses the point.

I'm no educator, but I figured out at some point after high school that language is, in fact, the tool of thought. The better one understands how language works and how it is capable of constructing things that have never been conceived before, the better and more clearly one can think about anything and everything. This understanding comes about through a study of literature, imo.

The English language has a lot of faults, but it's one of the greatest things we have been given. That's why I believe English literature should be emphasized in education.

 

I agree that language is extremely important.  I would just like to see a shift to less reading and writing book reports and to more researching and writing papers that require thought.  Creating instead of consuming.  There's some of that now, but English has basically been taught the same way for decades and could use updated.

Just like you said, after high school you figured out its importance.  English teachers are notorious for teaching what they wanted to learn and not what students want to learn.  We all do it a little bit, but it seems like English teachers (and History teachers) are the worst at it.  I think its better to get kids to enjoy reading, no matter what the genre than to force a book on them and have them hate it.  Too many people leave high school hating to read.

[KoB2011]

7 minutes ago, Leathernecks said:

I agree that language is extremely important.  I would just like to see a shift to less reading and writing book reports and to more researching and writing papers that require thought.  Creating instead of consuming.  There's some of that now, but English has basically been taught the same way for decades and could use updated.

Just like you said, after high school you figured out its importance.  English teachers are notorious for teaching what they wanted to learn and not what students want to learn.  We all do it a little bit, but it seems like English teachers (and History teachers) are the worst at it.  I think its better to get kids to enjoy reading, no matter what the genre than to force a book on them and have them hate it.  Too many people leave high school hating to read.

This is a strong point. How do you think English teachers could be make the content engaging for the students? 

[Leathernecks]

On 3/16/2018 at 8:28 AM, Reacher said:

Kudos to the University of WI Stevens Point for restructuring their curriculum (eliminating many liberal arts majors and even firing tenured professors in those departments and expanding STEM and vocational offerings) and KUDOS TO HSN members who were ahead of the curve in recognizing the need for change!  

https://www.wpr.org/sites/default/files/Point Forward.pdf

 

 

I love it, and it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  It looks like a lot of the actually classes didn't get cut, but they cut some of the majors.  They basically said they're trying to streamline things and even make the humanities better by not having so many options.  They're cutting it down and focusing on being good in a few of them instead of not having the resources for having a lot of majors.  I think it is a really good plan.  Not sure how it will actually play out though.  I could see it upsetting a lot of people and not having the intended result.

[Leathernecks]

1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

This is a strong point. How do you think English teachers could be make the content engaging for the students? 

I don't know nearly enough to know how to fix it overall, but here are some ideas for individual lessons that I think could work really well.  I think they kind of share similar patterns though of altering current lessons to make them 21st century.

The STEM lesson I talked about earlier of building a shelter and writing about it after reading a book would be a fun one.  They'd really have to focus on their procedural writing and detail.  It would allow them to showcase their creativity while still getting the English concept.

Another idea along the lines of procedural writing would be to have each person write out directions for how to beat the first level of a game.  They would trade with a partner who hasn't played the game before, and the person would have to beat that level using the directions they are given.

I think writing a review of their favorite video game would be a really cool lesson.  Or they could read an online review of their favorite video game and analyze that person's review and give their thoughts on it.

I saw one that was designing a tiny house for a book character.  They could read a book and use an online software to design a tiny house that their character would enjoy living in.  The one I saw on Harry Potter said he would have a table in it because of his need for companionship.  They would have to really know the character to be able to make it.

To show how statistics can make an argument stronger, they could analyze last night's UMBC win and explain 5 factors of why UMBC won and include meaningful statistics for each factor.  Similar to that, they could write about who they think will win a certain game and use statistics to back it up.  It could even be something like who will win an Oscar or Academy Award.  For each of those ideas, they could write a paper explaining why they think their team will win, and include a section that is "if they lose, it will be because..." and they have to explain the other side.

[Hoosierhoopster]

12 hours ago, Leathernecks said:

I agree that language is extremely important.  I would just like to see a shift to less reading and writing book reports and to more researching and writing papers that require thought.  Creating instead of consuming.  There's some of that now, but English has basically been taught the same way for decades and could use updated.

Just like you said, after high school you figured out its importance.  English teachers are notorious for teaching what they wanted to learn and not what students want to learn.  We all do it a little bit, but it seems like English teachers (and History teachers) are the worst at it.  I think its better to get kids to enjoy reading, no matter what the genre than to force a book on them and have them hate it.  Too many people leave high school hating to read.

Reading and analyzing literature is not simply consuming. This is the math-science way of looking at the world without recognizing left-side brain art and literature creativity is no less important to critical thought and expression (and greater in expression) than math and science. Favoring one over the other is not the answer. 

How English / English literature is taught in high school varies and leaves a lot to be desired, but then the same is true of math and science — don’t get me started on how bad my math teachers were in high school — and I’d say you’d be hard pressed to prove more high school students prefer math and science to English / literature / social studies and related subjects. 

As a lawyer handling sophisticated and complex commercial, business, and banking disputes, I engage in complex problem solving daily together with creative solution work and the use of language to persuade. My foundation - English, Literature, philosophy, foreign languages (Russian, French) and related studies. You want to learn to think dynamically? Shakespear. Math and science are important to education - they are not more important than language and the arts, and the idea of downplaying the importance of one in favor of the other is limiting. 

[rico]

10 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Reading and analyzing literature is not simply consuming. This is the math-science way of looking at the world without recognizing left-side brain art and literature creativity is no less important to critical thought and expression (and greater in expression) than math and science. Favoring one over the other is not the answer. 

How English / English literature is taught in high school varies and leaves a lot to be desired, but then the same is true of math and science — don’t get me started on how bad my math teachers were in high school — and I’d say you’d be hard pressed to prove more high school students prefer math and science to English / literature / social studies and related subjects. 

As a lawyer handling sophisticated and complex commercial, business, and banking disputes, I engage in complex problem solving daily together with creative solution work and the use of language to persuade. My foundation - English, Literature, philosophy, foreign languages (Russian, French) and related studies. You want to learn to think dynamically? Shakespear. Math and science are important to education - they are not more important than language and the arts, and the idea of downplaying the importance of one in favor of the other is limiting. 

Although I don't agree with everything in your post you did touch on something that still pisses me off to this day......my Son's math teacher absolutely sucked.  I confronted him about it and his response was that he was just teaching from the book.  A book which the school board had selected.  Not a single member of the 5 person school board was college educated.  

[KoB2011]

6 hours ago, rico said:

Although I don't agree with everything in your post you did touch on something that still pisses me off to this day......my Son's math teacher absolutely sucked.  I confronted him about it and his response was that he was just teaching from the book.  A book which the school board had selected.  Not a single member of the 5 person school board was college educated.  

I'm not big on litmus tests for political office, but this shouldn't be allowed. I get that people can vote for what they want but kids who don't vote are the people who end up paying. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm not big on litmus tests for political office, but this shouldn't be allowed. I get that people can vote for what they want but kids who don't vote are the people who end up paying. 

I would like to see some sort of reform as to school board eligibility. School boards are often composed of people who really shouldn’t be anywhere near a school board. 

[Leathernecks]

20 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Reading and analyzing literature is not simply consuming. This is the math-science way of looking at the world without recognizing left-side brain art and literature creativity is no less important to critical thought and expression (and greater in expression) than math and science. Favoring one over the other is not the answer. 

How English / English literature is taught in high school varies and leaves a lot to be desired, but then the same is true of math and science — don’t get me started on how bad my math teachers were in high school — and I’d say you’d be hard pressed to prove more high school students prefer math and science to English / literature / social studies and related subjects. 

As a lawyer handling sophisticated and complex commercial, business, and banking disputes, I engage in complex problem solving daily together with creative solution work and the use of language to persuade. My foundation - English, Literature, philosophy, foreign languages (Russian, French) and related studies. You want to learn to think dynamically? Shakespear. Math and science are important to education - they are not more important than language and the arts, and the idea of downplaying the importance of one in favor of the other is limiting. 

I didn't mean to come off sounding as though reading wasn't important.  Looking back, it might have come off that way, but it is definitely important.  Earlier on this page, I made the point that I don't want to see English required for less than 4 years.  I was mostly just saying that all the English teachers I've had and work with are very set in their ways.  They're going to read To Kill a Mockingbird, Fahrenheit 451, The Scarlet Letter, etc., and it doesn't matter if everyone hates it and doesn't read a word.  There are very few things that have changed over the last 30 or so years.  That's the main point I was trying to make.  The current system is fine for the small percentage of kids who like to read, but it really struggles reaching those kids who don't.

Math and science are definitely an area of need.  As a chemistry and physics teacher, if I left my job, our school would be lucky to have a single qualified person apply.  If anything, they would likely get people who have experience in Biology.

I would say that English probably has the most qualified teachers because there aren't that many great jobs if you love English.  As someone who is a chemistry major, I could probably find a job making around $100,000.  Not many people pass that up to go teach.  Same thing for most math and science positions.  Most math teachers right now are baaaad.  Like, really bad.  A lot of science teachers aren't good either (not me of course! lol).  That's why I would love to see more resources given to teachers.  There aren't enough good workers going into education in math and science right now.

Overall though, I just want to see a top to bottom restructuring of the whole system.

[Leathernecks]

10 hours ago, rico said:

Although I don't agree with everything in your post you did touch on something that still pisses me off to this day......my Son's math teacher absolutely sucked.  I confronted him about it and his response was that he was just teaching from the book.  A book which the school board had selected.  Not a single member of the 5 person school board was college educated.  

I hit on it in my reply to HH, but yes, most math teachers are awful.  Maybe pathetic might even be the best way to explain it.  There are a few that are good, but it is pretty rare.  Way too many teachers in all subjects teach straight out of the book.  I know a few that even use the PowerPoint that comes with the book and use all the worksheets and tests supplied by the book.  That was fine 20 years ago when there weren't other resources, but that doesn't cut it anymore.  Might as well just share all those resources with the kids and tell them when the test will be.  I couldn't even imagine being that useless.  There are so many amazing online activities, interactive sites, YouTube videos, etc. that make lectures so much better.  I would lose my mind standing up and lecturing all day every day.

I'm not sure what our school board actually does.  I'm pretty sure they just wait for the superintendent to tell them what to do and they vote on it.  

[Leathernecks]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I would like to see some sort of reform as to school board eligibility. School boards are often composed of people who really shouldn’t be anywhere near a school board. 

They can reform teacher's unions while they're at it.