Final Four thread?

[rico]

11 minutes ago, BGleas said:

My takeaway from the tournament is...patience, patience, patience...

In Jay Wright's first three seasons at Nova he was 52-46 with ZERO tournament appearances. Also once he got it up and running, he had a 10 year period (from 04-05 to 14-15) where he had 1 final four (which definitely helped him with stability) and 6 first weekend exits in the tournament, as well as a missed tournament. 

In John Beilein's first three seasons at Michigan he was 46-53 with 1 tournament appearance. 

We'd all love Archie to turn this thing around overnight, and as IU fans for starving for relevance again on the big stage, but if we believe Archie is the "the guy", and I think he can be, then we need to be patience and let him build this thing. 

I don't disagree with you but there are some different factors in play here.

Jay's squad jumped conferences.  The old Big East could be/was brutal.  To me that plays into his success somewhat.

B was a proven winner at West Virginia and smaller schools.

[Hoosierhoopster]

15 minutes ago, BGleas said:

My takeaway from the tournament is...patience, patience, patience...

In Jay Wright's first three seasons at Nova he was 52-46 with ZERO tournament appearances. Also once he got it up and running, he had a 10 year period (from 04-05 to 14-15) where he had 1 final four (which definitely helped him with stability) and 6 first weekend exits in the tournament, as well as a missed tournament. 

In John Beilein's first three seasons at Michigan he was 46-53 with 1 tournament appearance. 

We'd all love Archie to turn this thing around overnight, and as IU fans for starving for relevance again on the big stage, but if we believe Archie is the "the guy", and I think he can be, then we need to be patience and let him build this thing. 

I agree, patience is important, especially when a coach is building his program in his style, differing from the past style of play, and re-tooling in recruiting. We've only seen CAM for one season -- I think we saw a lot to have reason for optimism down the road, as we've covered several times. But as this Board reflects, IU may be the most impatient fanbase and college program in the country. If CAM doesn't have IU competing for the conference and in the tourney and ranked and generally doing well by year 3, fair or not we'll probably see a lot of questioning of his coaching and longevity. Somewhat related, if you measure Crean's tenure at IU against Wright's and Beilein's it stacks up well -- I know (and agree) he failed to build consistency with good years followed by terrible years due to an inability to build in recruiting to handle NBA departures, but in terms of what he accomplished, I think it's also fair to compare him to coaches who, at basketball programs considered lesser than IU, were able to win championships when given time.

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, rico said:

I don't disagree with you but there are some different factors in play here.

Jay's squad jumped conferences.  The old Big East could be/was brutal.  To me that plays into his success somewhat.

B was a proven winner at West Virginia and smaller schools.

There's always going to be different factors, the point is that if you think you have your guy then you need to be patient. 

I'm not saying everyone has to think that Archie is "the guy", he still has much to prove in that sense, but if you do think he has that potential, which I do, then patience is key. The best sports franchises or college programs have generally been patient with their coaches and given them time to build. 

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I agree, patience is important, especially when a coach is building his program in his style, differing from the past style of play, and re-tooling in recruiting. We've only seen CAM for one season -- I think we saw a lot to have reason for optimism down the road, as we've covered several times. But as this Board reflects, IU may be the most impatient fanbase and college program in the country. If CAM doesn't have IU competing for the conference and in the tourney and ranked and generally doing well by year 3, fair or not we'll probably see a lot of questioning of his coaching and longevity. Somewhat related, if you measure Crean's tenure at IU against Wright's and Beilein's it stacks up well -- I know (and agree) he failed to build consistency with good years followed by terrible years due to an inability to build in recruiting to handle NBA departures, but in terms of what he accomplished, I think it's also fair to compare him to coaches who, at basketball programs considered lesser than IU, were able to win championships when given time.

I understand what you're saying about Crean and where it's coming from, but when I've posted about patience it's always (or almost always) been with the caveat "if you think the coach is 'the guy'". I think fans were very, very split on on Crean being "the guy" due to his style of coaching, recruiting and team building. I'm not preaching patience for patience sake, but patience when you think you have the right coach. I don't think a huge percentage every thought Crean was the guy. 

P.S. Did I just break a record for number of time typing "patience" in an HSN post?

[Hoosierhoopster]

52 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I understand what you're saying about Crean and where it's coming from, but when I've posted about patience it's always (or almost always) been with the caveat "if you think the coach is 'the guy'". I think fans were very, very split on on Crean being "the guy" due to his style of coaching, recruiting and team building. I'm not preaching patience for patience sake, but patience when you think you have the right coach. I don't think a huge percentage every thought Crean was the guy. 

P.S. Did I just break a record for number of time typing "patience" in an HSN post?

Yes, you’re in the record books! 

And agreed 

[BobSaccamanno]

On 3/31/2018 at 8:11 PM, hoopsta007 said:

Yes actually it is!  Michigan is the first team to make the finals playing no better than a 6 seed. 

I read this argument with interest.  I think we can acknowledge that Michigan can only play who is in front of them.  And they won five straight in the tourney and thirteen straight overall.  That is great regardless of the circumstances because you're beating good teams peaking late.  Very tough to do.  Beilein coached his head off and his team peaked at the right time, and played outstanding team ball.  All credit to them.

But, if you want to be fair about it, you can acknowledge all the positives and give them due credit and recognize that their path was a blessing.  Let's put it this way.  Crean's Oladipo team in 2013 probably gets to the championship game.  He may still be here if that happened instead of being exposed by Syracuse.  Purdue this year may have gotten to the championship game too with that draw.  And, we would all agree those were good teams that played well at the right time.  

I think the biggest takeaway regarding Michigan is that, if you are a sound team and are consistent year after year, you will have breakthroughs that may even be unexpected.  Michigan State has also played well in past tourneys in a similar vein.