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brad stevens has already revamped romeo's shot


coachv

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On 10/4/2019 at 1:11 PM, 13th&Jackson said:

So the Celtics are altering his mechanics after his thumb surgery. Coming to IU, Romeo was clear that he was there for one year. Then he tore a thumb ligament. Out of all the things the coaches could prioritize to utilize Romeo under that scenario, changing his shot seems like high risk-low payoff. Plus, should a player alter his shot, while his shooting hand is injured?

This.

Do we really want Romeo to take thousands of shooting reps with a torn thumb ligament? 

Sounds like an incredibly bad idea to me...but I'm not a coach. :coffee:

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5 hours ago, coachv said:

my opinion is he had a shot at the nba but wasn't properly trained by crean and his staff, who had no idea how to coach bigs

A shot? Sure, he had a shot. He kicked around the G League for a few years. But he never was going to be a 1st round pick.

His best shot would have been as an NBA 3, meaning the coaching staff's abilities to coach bigs would not have been as critical (Zeller and Bryant say hi, BTW)

Watford arrived with a decent all around a game but with no real strengths and wasn't a superior natural athlete. By the time he graduated, his shooting had improved (35% from 3 his freshman year to 48% his senior year, with a hell of a lot more attempts), he was a solid defender who could guard 5 positions, he could play effectively on the block or outside, and was a pretty decent shot blocker. Maybe Crean is better with guards vs bigs, but to imply that they didn't do enough for Watford is pushing it.

When he was done, his biggest weakness was the fact he wasn't a superior natural athlete. He was a reliable ball handler, but he wasn't going to break an NBA 3 down off the dribble, and didn't have the lateral quickness to play D at that level. Not much that coaching can do for that.

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2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Wat’s tremendous improvement from his frost to senior seasons was huge, and undeniable. Your opinion must have been formed without watching. From a guy who couldn’t get to the rim, stuffed repeatedly (to the point where one idiot poster dubbed him “cookies”), with no lateral movement, to the guy guarding the other teams’ best Players including points, a scoring machine, and an all around outstanding player not to mention the guy who killed UK. Wat’s improvements were obvious 

Agree completely. The only reason Watford never made the NBA was athleticism. You give Watford the athleticism of Troy Williams, and he would have been a first round pick. He developed as much as anyone over his 4 years under a Crean. 

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10 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree completely. The only reason Watford never made the NBA was athleticism. You give Watford the athleticism of Troy Williams, and he would have been a first round pick. He developed as much as anyone over his 4 years under a Crean. 

Combine the best aspects of Watford and Troy...thats not a first round pick, that's a lottery pick.

Edit: And I'm not exaggerating. A 6'9" 48% 3 point shooter that can still play inside, can guard 5 positions, block shots and is a natural athletic freak? That's the prototypical NBA player today.

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19 hours ago, Zlinedavid said:

A shot? Sure, he had a shot. He kicked around the G League for a few years. But he never was going to be a 1st round pick.

His best shot would have been as an NBA 3, meaning the coaching staff's abilities to coach bigs would not have been as critical (Zeller and Bryant say hi, BTW)

Watford arrived with a decent all around a game but with no real strengths and wasn't a superior natural athlete. By the time he graduated, his shooting had improved (35% from 3 his freshman year to 48% his senior year, with a hell of a lot more attempts), he was a solid defender who could guard 5 positions, he could play effectively on the block or outside, and was a pretty decent shot blocker. Maybe Crean is better with guards vs bigs, but to imply that they didn't do enough for Watford is pushing it.

When he was done, his biggest weakness was the fact he wasn't a superior natural athlete. He was a reliable ball handler, but he wasn't going to break an NBA 3 down off the dribble, and didn't have the lateral quickness to play D at that level. Not much that coaching can do for that.

tell them i said hi. what zeller and bryant have accomplished they did on their own. 

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On 10/4/2019 at 11:03 AM, coachv said:

watched a video yesterday of langford working on his shot with celtics coaches. it is completely different. they have eliminated the awful technique he had of bringing the ball back behind his head and hinging at the elbow to release the shot, a la watford. it is much more compact now, a quick release where he keeps the ball above the forehead. looks beautiful. the other two players who were shooting with romeo had identical technique.

i used to harp on that being the reason for his poor shooting last season when i posted at the hoosier, this before we knew about his ligament injury. i was banned from the hoosier for being too negative and for being a purdue troll.

i wonder why coach miller did not fix romeo's shot? it was painfully obvious to me what that his form needed work. i know a lot of fans like to say by the time a player gets to college it's too late to change his stroke. i never believed in that. evidently, neither does stevens.

CoachV. I am happy someone else shares my concern about Archie's "just get more shots up" approach to better shooting. This is a huge concern of mine. Collin Hartman was falling backwards on his shot throughout his Senior year and shot the ball awfully - nobody corrected this obvious issue all year long. The Shot Doctor would have corrected Hartman after he struggled for a few games. I don't necessarily think having a coach who completely reworks a player's mechanics is a great idea. However, getting someone back on track with the fundamentals is critical. Collin - you're falling backwards on your jumper. Damezi - you need to keep your shoulders square to the rim. Getting back to the fundamentals is how you get kids out of shooting slumps.

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1 minute ago, Zeisloft and Roth said:

CoachV. I am happy someone else shares my concern about Archie's "just get more shots up" approach to better shooting. This is a huge concern of mine. Collin Hartman was falling backwards on his shot throughout his Senior year and shot the ball awfully - nobody corrected this obvious issue all year long. The Shot Doctor would have corrected Hartman after he struggled for a few games. I don't necessarily think having a coach who completely reworks a player's mechanics is a great idea. However, getting someone back on track with the fundamentals is critical. Collin - you're falling backwards on your jumper. Damezi - you need to keep your shoulders square to the rim. Getting back to the fundamentals is how you get kids out of shooting slumps.

How do you know how much the coaches are working with the players on their shots.  Some players are such stubborn and don't think they need to change and that could be one of the reasons we did not see Anderson on the court much last year.

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4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

How do you know how much the coaches are working with the players on their shots.  Some players are such stubborn and don't think they need to change and that could be one of the reasons we did not see Anderson on the court much last year.

 Yes.  And not unlike, Romeo.  Collin was injured for a good part of his time at IU.  Priorities.  Get the kid healthy, before messing with his shot.

Collin Hartman and His Injuries

 Collin Hartman , his Mom, and his surgery 

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1 minute ago, milehiiu said:

 Yes.  And not unlike, Romeo.  Collin was injured for a good part of his time at IU.  Priorities.  Get the kid healthy, before messing with his shot.

(14) The Journey - Collin Hartman and His Injuries - YouTube

I am not talking about messing with anyone's shot. I am talking about pulling Hartman aside and saying Collin - you're shooting 24% from 3 this year compared to 36% two years ago - let's talk about how one or two fundamentals have changed and how you can get back on track. Minor adjustments and a focus on the fundamentals can restore a kid's confidence.

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Just now, Zeisloft and Roth said:

I am not talking about messing with anyone's shot. I am talking about pulling Hartman aside and saying Collin - you're shooting 24% from 3 this year compared to 36% two years ago - let's talk about how one or two fundamentals have changed and how you can get back on track. Minor adjustments and a focus on the fundamentals can restore a kid's confidence.

OK.  Thanks for the clarification. As the conversation has been all about changing a shot.  My apologies, for taking your post incorrectly. 

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2 minutes ago, Zeisloft and Roth said:

I am not talking about messing with anyone's shot. I am talking about pulling Hartman aside and saying Collin - you're shooting 24% from 3 this year compared to 36% two years ago - let's talk about how one or two fundamentals have changed and how you can get back on track. Minor adjustments and a focus on the fundamentals can restore a kid's confidence.

Again how do you know that is not happening already

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Just now, IU Scott said:

Again how do you know that is not happening already

1. Watched every second of every game for the past two years

2. Watched us shoot the ball terribly two years ago and thought to myself - this is an anomaly we can't be this bad again. Wrong, we were worse last year.

3. Q: Archie, how can we solve our shooting woes? A: Get more shots up

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Just now, Zeisloft and Roth said:

1. Watched every second of every game for the past two years

2. Watched us shoot the ball terribly two years ago and thought to myself - this is an anomaly we can't be this bad again. Wrong, we were worse last year.

3. Q: Archie, how can we solve our shooting woes? A: Get more shots up

Well as a shooter that is how you get out of your slump is to keep shooting.  Again the coaches can harp on something but if the players are to stubborn to work on it  won't matter.  Also one of the reasons our percentage was down last year especially from 3 was that the two main shooters were not good outside shooters.  One of them, romeo had an injured wrist which could take into account his bad shooting.

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19 minutes ago, Zeisloft and Roth said:

CoachV. I am happy someone else shares my concern about Archie's "just get more shots up" approach to better shooting. This is a huge concern of mine. Collin Hartman was falling backwards on his shot throughout his Senior year and shot the ball awfully - nobody corrected this obvious issue all year long. The Shot Doctor would have corrected Hartman after he struggled for a few games. I don't necessarily think having a coach who completely reworks a player's mechanics is a great idea. However, getting someone back on track with the fundamentals is critical. Collin - you're falling backwards on your jumper. Damezi - you need to keep your shoulders square to the rim. Getting back to the fundamentals is how you get kids out of shooting slumps.

i don't know what archie's approach is to shooting but in regards to hartman, he was also leaning a little left on his jumper. damezi also has a release that is way too low. i'll go out on a limb and predict anderson does not improve his shot this season. robert johnson would land a foot and a half to his left when shooting from the wings. all the way back from high school he would land 4 feet in front of his takeoff spot when shooting from the top of the 3 point area. he reduced that by half by the time he graduated. i do not agree about "reworking" shooting mechanics. first of all, you are assuming all high school coaches are competent. i assure you they are not. secondly, learning to shoot is not that difficult, and it is easy enough to teach. what's the point of having coaches if they don't correct what is incorrect. that is a disservice to both the player and the team. coaches correct all manner of fundamentals in professional sports. to rely on the player to produce based on how they were taught as a child is a risky proposition. damezi is a case in point. still shooting the way he learned in 6th grade. 

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Wonder why no one ever bothered to try to change Reggie Miller's form since it was not an ideal release.  I also think you are born a great shooter and can't learn it but you can go from bad to good but I don't think any amount of work can make you a great shooter.  Yes Alford worked hard at it but I feel shooters like him are born and just have the feel for shooting a basketball. 

Look at Shaq where it sounded like he would work a lot on his free throw shooting but it never seemed to help him improve.

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1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Well as a shooter that is how you get out of your slump is to keep shooting.  Again the coaches can harp on something but if the players are to stubborn to work on it  won't matter.  Also one of the reasons our percentage was down last year especially from 3 was that the two main shooters were not good outside shooters.  One of them, romeo had an injured wrist which could take into account his bad shooting.

I understand your points - people have been echoing these talking points all offseason. I would say they are good points but the fact of the matter is there was only one good 3 pt shooter on our team last year (Green). Nobody else shot 35%. In order to be a better shooting team this year, our players either have to improve their shooting or the new guys on the team need to be good shooters.

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2 minutes ago, Zeisloft and Roth said:

I understand your points - people have been echoing these talking points all offseason. I would say they are good points but the fact of the matter is there was only one good 3 pt shooter on our team last year (Green). Nobody else shot 35%. In order to be a better shooting team this year, our players either have to improve their shooting or the new guys on the team need to be good shooters.

Well I think RP was shooting over 40% until his injury and I fully expect him to shoot better.  At HH Al's shot looks real smooth and I really think he will be a 40%+ plus shooter from 3

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On 10/4/2019 at 5:43 PM, Zlinedavid said:

If you watch replays of that Vandy/UK SEC final, UK had a major case of give-a-$#!+-itis.  The only thing that kept them from caring? The fact they already had one loss.

Our S16 loss was the most points they gave up all year: 90.  2nd highest was 74.  Oh, and in case it isn't seared into your memory (and why isn't it?), we scored 73 the first time against them. 

That team was close.  Looking back, they were closer than 2012-13. 

A Tom Pritchard dunk away from maybe.....

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On 10/7/2019 at 4:43 PM, coachv said:

i don't know what archie's approach is to shooting but in regards to hartman, he was also leaning a little left on his jumper. damezi also has a release that is way too low. i'll go out on a limb and predict anderson does not improve his shot this season. robert johnson would land a foot and a half to his left when shooting from the wings. all the way back from high school he would land 4 feet in front of his takeoff spot when shooting from the top of the 3 point area. he reduced that by half by the time he graduated. i do not agree about "reworking" shooting mechanics. first of all, you are assuming all high school coaches are competent. i assure you they are not. secondly, learning to shoot is not that difficult, and it is easy enough to teach. what's the point of having coaches if they don't correct what is incorrect. that is a disservice to both the player and the team. coaches correct all manner of fundamentals in professional sports. to rely on the player to produce based on how they were taught as a child is a risky proposition. damezi is a case in point. still shooting the way he learned in 6th grade. 

Hey coachv, Hoosier Charm 87 here (formerly ForeverIU from ITH). Conversed with you on The Daily Hoosier a couple of weeks ago, and thanks for referring me to this site. Anyway, and I'm kinda late to this conversation, but I actually got skewered in a conversation today for suggesting that Leal's intent to make 500 3's a day in practice is not something to necessarily celebrate outright. Your insight into Archie is also interesting, and I wonder if this might have something to do with his teams not being great shooting teams (historically). I found this interesting piece that you can Google if you like: "How taking 51,600 shots made me a worse basketball shooter". Look forward to "hanging out" more on this site, although I'm still trying to find my way around.

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3 minutes ago, Hoosier Charm 87 said:

Hey coachv, Hoosier Charm 87 here (formerly ForeverIU from ITH). Conversed with you on The Daily Hoosier a couple of weeks ago, and thanks for referring me to this site. Anyway, and I'm kinda late to this conversation, but I actually got skewered in a conversation today for suggesting that Leal's intent to make 500 3's a day in practice is not something to necessarily celebrate outright. Your insight into Archie is also interesting, and I wonder if this might have something to do with his teams not being great shooting teams (historically). I found this interesting piece that you can Google if you like: "How taking 51,600 shots made me a worse basketball shooter". Look forward to "hanging out" more on this site, although I'm still trying to find my way around.

Welcome to Hoosier Sports Nation, Charm. 

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On 10/7/2019 at 3:43 PM, coachv said:

i don't know what archie's approach is to shooting but in regards to hartman, he was also leaning a little left on his jumper. damezi also has a release that is way too low. i'll go out on a limb and predict anderson does not improve his shot this season. robert johnson would land a foot and a half to his left when shooting from the wings. all the way back from high school he would land 4 feet in front of his takeoff spot when shooting from the top of the 3 point area. he reduced that by half by the time he graduated. i do not agree about "reworking" shooting mechanics. first of all, you are assuming all high school coaches are competent. i assure you they are not. secondly, learning to shoot is not that difficult, and it is easy enough to teach. what's the point of having coaches if they don't correct what is incorrect. that is a disservice to both the player and the team. coaches correct all manner of fundamentals in professional sports. to rely on the player to produce based on how they were taught as a child is a risky proposition. damezi is a case in point. still shooting the way he learned in 6th grade. 

Let me add to the conversation.  Coaching is not making robots out of players.  There are different philosophies to shooting a basketball, like there are hitting a baseball.  Some coaches do not care about the items you are mentioning and all they care about is the alignment of the shoulder, hip and shooting big toe.  Some will pick on the items you are mentioning.  Personally, I have been to enough clinics and been around enough coaches where the good ones allow players to have differences with style, while working on teaching a philosophy.  There is no doubt small corrections are being made by all staffs that ever sat the sideline.  It is also important to understand reps lead to success - every player knows that.  From my experience as well, coaches who only teach one way to shoot use that as a comfort zone to teach.

Let's look at the pic attached.  We can pull up many examples of successful shooters who had differences.  In th pic attached, both have top shooting coaches and workout together and analyze together; however, differences in form still exist.  Both really good shooters. 

Anderson has a shot that is good for him, and he will be successful.  

main-qimg-30a9df135d66ea8a37b8c9544f701841.jpeg

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55 minutes ago, Hoosier Charm 87 said:

Hey coachv, Hoosier Charm 87 here (formerly ForeverIU from ITH). Conversed with you on The Daily Hoosier a couple of weeks ago, and thanks for referring me to this site. Anyway, and I'm kinda late to this conversation, but I actually got skewered in a conversation today for suggesting that Leal's intent to make 500 3's a day in practice is not something to necessarily celebrate outright. Your insight into Archie is also interesting, and I wonder if this might have something to do with his teams not being great shooting teams (historically). I found this interesting piece that you can Google if you like: "How taking 51,600 shots made me a worse basketball shooter". Look forward to "hanging out" more on this site, although I'm still trying to find my way around.

welcome. i did not know archie's team historically shoot below average. any specifics? did i have insight into archie? he plays things so close to the vest i have little feel for him and how he motivates. i do have high hopes, against my better judgement. btw, this place has a pretty low tolerance for insults and cursing i think

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