Gannon vs IU post game

[IU Scott]

I don't know why this argument keeps going because there are no longer 5 different positions.  You have guards/wings/forwards and it will depend on how many of each Archie wants to play.  Right now in the starting lineup he is using a guard, a wing and 3 forwards.  When everyone gets healthy that will probably change so why worry about what position someone is playing.

[DC2345]

13 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I didn't see the game, so I can't comment specifically on the last night's game. But, nobody has claimed that Smith is a post-up player. He hasn't been a post-up player at IU. Being the "4" or the "forward" doesn't make you a post-up player and that's not what Smith has been. Smith has always played on the perimeter at IU, but there is a difference between a wing and a forward, and to this point in his IU career (not counting exhibitions) Smith has played exclusively as a forward. 

Forwards in IU's offense play on the perimeter, but their role is different than the wings. The forwards set ball screens for wings and guards and then slash to the basket and/or fade to the perimeter. If they get the ball on the perimeter they reverse it to the opposite wing and then go ball screen again. This isn't the offense 100% of the time, but it's largely the roles of the forward. The wings are the guys coming off ball screens (Phinisee, Green, Durham, Langford last season) looking to create, shoot, penetrate and dish or finish, etc. Wings/guards are the play-makers, the forwards are the play finishers. 

I've been vocal in this debate, and I've said all along, to this point Smith has not shown an ability to play the wing, but if he improves his ball handling, decision making, passing, bball IQ and shooting, then yes he can play the wing. Hopefully he's improved in those areas and can do, because then that versatility will only help. He just hasn't shown it yet in his career. 

I'm also not sure you can say you were right yet. IU has played one secret scrimmage and one exhibition, our starting shooting guard hasn't played a minute, our starting point guard has played 13 minutes and our other starting wing missed the entire exhibition game. That's 81 guard/wing minutes per game from last season that haven't been available. So, it's not like these have been the regular rotations. 

It will be interesting to see how it plays out when/if all those guys are healthy and with an emerging Franklin. Again, if Smith has improved his wing skills considerably, then that would be fantastic. If he hasn't and he does in fact play the wing, then I'd expect IU's offense to be pretty bad this season. 

 

Archie said last night that Smith will be playing as a wing or something similar to that. What you said is right in a since but it is all based on system and coaches phylosophy as to how many decisions a 3 actually has to make. 

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

I don't know why this argument keeps going because there are no longer 5 different positions.  You have guards/wings/forwards and it will depend on how many of each Archie wants to play.  Right now in the starting lineup he is using a guard, a wing and 3 forwards.  When everyone gets healthy that will probably change so why worry about what position someone is playing.

Completely agree with this. I've just been using the term '3' because it seems to be easier for everyone to keep the discussion clear. But in almost all of my posts on this I've also used the terminology guards, wings, forwards and bigs. 

To this point in his career, Smith has exclusively played a forward position. While the forward position in IU's offense (and really most offenses for that matter in 2019) plays on the perimeter it is not the same as playing the wing. The roles are different. 

 

[DC2345]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I don't know why this argument keeps going because there are no longer 5 different positions.  You have guards/wings/forwards and it will depend on how many of each Archie wants to play.  Right now in the starting lineup he is using a guard, a wing and 3 forwards.  When everyone gets healthy that will probably change so why worry about what position someone is playing.

It depends on the system. There are still 5 different positions unless you are always running a free flowing offense all the time. Now do guys fill multiple roles sometimes? Yes they do but they still have a position more times than not. 

[DC2345]

6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

This conversation apparently will go on all season, lol.

How many three pointers did Smith take last night? Answer: 0.

He's not playing the "3", he's playing forward from the perimeter. He's not, and did not, play a decision-on-ball role, orchestrate offense, shoot from outside, etc. He's a forward, playing in a ball-movement system on the perimeter. It's not the 3. 

You don't have to shoot 3's to be a 3. What shots you take will be dependent on how teams are defending him. I also read that he Smith changed his shot closer to how it was in high school. I would say that is why his FT% was better last night. He could shoot in high school. 

[BGleas]

2 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

Archie said last night that Smith will be playing as a wing or something similar to that. What you said is right in a since but it is all based on system and coaches phylosophy as to how many decisions a 3 actually has to make. 

Agree. But, to this point in his career Smith has exclusively played a forward position in Archie's system. He may play some wing this season, though I would expect it will either be because Archie is tweaking his system for this season's roster because of more depth at the forward spot than the actual wing spot, which I love by the way because I think the best coaches tweak based on their roster as opposed to forcing a square peg in a round hole, or it's because of injury and there aren't other options. 

 

 

[5fouls]

Smith is the '3'.  It says so on his uniform. 

Just like in middle school I was the '54', the number reserved for the fat kid that never got off the bench.  

[DC2345]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

Agree. But, to this point in his career Smith has exclusively played a forward position in Archie's system. He may play some wing this season, though I would expect it will either be because Archie is tweaking his system for this season's roster because of more depth at the forward spot than the actual wing spot, which I love by the way because I think the best coaches tweak based on their roster as opposed to forcing a square peg in a round hole, or it's because of injury and there aren't other options. 

 

 

Archie has said that he has changed his offense to more motion because of TJD, Brunk, and Davis which pushed Smith to the Wing. Plus they want him defending the other teams wing scorers. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, IndySportsPartizan said:

Part of Justin's bad attitude at times in the past was being put out of position.. playing the 4 instead of the 3. Hopefully he was correct and it shows on the court this year (and the locker room). 

That is just ridiculous on his part. All year, when he was on the perimeter, teams gave him a wide berth and dared him to shoot. Other than the one MSU game that strategy produced a lot of bricks and airballs. He was not playing "out of position" at all last year. Unless he has made DRASTIC improvements to his outside shooting, he should not be playing on the wing.

[Hoosierhoopster]

Just now, DC2345 said:

You don't have to shoot 3's to be a 3. What shots you take will be dependent on how teams are defending him. I also read that he Smith changed his shot closer to how it was in high school. I would say that is why his FT% was better last night. He could shoot in high school. 

Caveat -- This is just a message board, and everyone here is just expressing their opinions -- none of the opinions stated on Smith's game, yours included, are bad opinions or just flat out "wrong," and positional play in the college (and NBA) game is no longer traditional 1-5.

That said, if you don't shoot the 3, don't orchestrate offense, don't play as a playmaker, you're really not a 3. Gleas explained IU's use of forwards including Smith on the perimeter well -- the distinction is he's not playing the role of a wing. He's playing forward, including on the perimeter. And there's nothing wrong with that, it can be very effective and he could have a great year -- I think he has great potential, and he looked good last night (albeit against a weak, exhibition opponent).

It's not about being "right", we're talking positions. I've seen nothing to call him a wing. 

There are a limited number of guys -- best example imo is Roberson of the Thunder -- of guys who can play wing with a heavy emphasis as a defensive stopper and not a scorer. But Smith hasn't shown the ability to playmake / handle (which Roberson is fully capable of). Can he get there? That would be fantastic for him -- through really it's unnecessary for him in IU's offense (that we've seen) and is not the strength of his game.

[IU Scott]

If everyone gets healthy and stays that way I am interested to see who starts and how the rotation plays out. Smith played the best last night and I have heard people say that Al has looked the best in practice.  I would think that RP, Green, TJD and Brunk looks like starters so who would the 5th be between Al and Smith.

[BGleas]

6 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

Archie has said that he has changed his offense to more motion because of TJD, Brunk, and Davis which pushed Smith to the Wing. Plus they want him defending the other teams wing scorers. 

I hope he is tweaking the offense based on the personnel, as again I think that's a sign of a good, smart coach. Coach K for example has won with numerous different styles of play based on his personnel. Belichick changes his teams style from game-to-game based on his personnel and the opponents strengths/weaknesses. 

To this point (I haven't seen IU this year yet) I would call the offense generally a read and react offense. Archie has at times thrown in a flex and a more typical motion offense, but generally it's been read and react with the guards/wings coming off ball screens and reading the defense and then reacting to it, and the forwards setting ball screens and reading/reacting to how the defense is defending the screen.

I do think once everyone is healthy that Smith is going to play a lot of minutes. I'm a fan of the 'get old, stay old' mantra and Smith has as much experience as anyone on the roster. I think where he plays will ultimately come down to the health of the roster. If our guards/wings are healthy then I'd expect Smith to largely play a forward position because that's all he's played to this point and it's where his strengths lie. 

But, if some of our guards/wings aren't healthy and say Hunter is inconsistent, then I'd expect Archie to tweak his offense to play big but in a way where Smith is a forward in a big lineup and he's being put in a position to play to his strengths, which it sounds like that is what happened. 

The bottom line for me, and it's what I've consistently said, is that in Archie's offense to this point the wings are in a play-making, ball handling role and Smith hasn't yet shown an ability to do that. If IU goes big, then I'd be worried if Smith is put in that position. If Archie goes big and tweaks the offense to where Smith is a 3rd forward and not really playing a ball handling, play-making role then I think that could be really interesting, though not sure how it would play out against good teams. 

[DC2345]

6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Caveat -- This is just a message board, and everyone here is just expressing their opinions -- none of the opinions stated on Smith's game, yours included, are bad opinions or just flat out "wrong," and positional play in the college (and NBA) game is no longer traditional 1-5.

That said, if you don't shoot the 3, don't orchestrate offense, don't play as a playmaker, you're really not a 3. Gleas explained IU's use of forwards including Smith on the perimeter well -- the distinction is he's not playing the role of a wing. He's playing forward, including on the perimeter. And there's nothing wrong with that, it can be very effective and he could have a great year -- I think he has great potential, and he looked good last night (albeit against a weak, exhibition opponent).

It's not about being "right", we're talking positions. I've seen nothing to call him a wing. 

There are a limited number of guys -- best example imo is Roberson of the Thunder -- of guys who can play wing with a heavy emphasis as a defensive stopper and not a scorer. But Smith hasn't shown the ability to playmake / handle (which Roberson is fully capable of). Can he get there? That would be fantastic for him -- through really it's unnecessary for him in IU's offense (that we've seen) and is not the strength of his game.

The point I was trying to make is that he is a better player when he plays the way he did in high school versus how he was used the last two years. His shot was better then two which he has changed it back to. I'm honestly not sure who or why it was changed in the first place but he hit at a much better percentage. He also could dribble better to although he did keep his eyes down a little to much. I can post a video for people to see for themselves. Yes I know it's different in college than AAU and high school but you can also see the skill set that IU fans haven't seen the last two years other than in spurts like against MSU. 

[tdhoosier]

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I hope he is tweaking the offense based on the personnel, as again I think that's a sign of a good, smart coach. Coach K for example has won with numerous different styles of play based on his personnel. Belichick changes his teams style from game-to-game based on his personnel and the opponents strengths/weaknesses. 

To this point (I haven't seen IU this year yet) I would call the offense generally a read and react offense. Archie has at times thrown in a flex and a more typical motion offense, but generally it's been read and react with the guards/wings coming off ball screens and reading the defense and then reacting to it, and the forwards setting ball screens and reading/reacting to how the defense is defending the screen.

I do think once everyone is healthy that Smith is going to play a lot of minutes. I'm a fan of the 'get old, stay old' mantra and Smith has as much experience as anyone on the roster. I think where he plays will ultimately come down to the health of the roster. If our guards/wings are healthy then I'd expect Smith to largely play a forward position because that's all he's played to this point and it's where his strengths lie. 

But, if some of our guards/wings aren't healthy and say Hunter is inconsistent, then I'd expect Archie to tweak his offense to play big but in a way where Smith is a forward in a big lineup and he's being put in a position to play to his strengths, which it sounds like that is what happened. 

The bottom line for me, and it's what I've consistently said, is that in Archie's offense to this point the wings are in a play-making, ball handling role and Smith hasn't yet shown an ability to do that. If IU goes big, then I'd be worried if Smith is put in that position. If Archie goes big and tweaks the offense to where Smith is a 3rd forward and not really playing a ball handling, play-making role then I think that could be really interesting, though not sure how it would play out against good teams. 

It seems like the misconceptions are coming in the form of semantics. Correct me if i'm wrong. Based on what you are portraying, the misconception comes from line-ups that include Justin and 2 other bigs?

*Just because Justin is playing the third big doesn't necessarily make him a *prototypical* 3 (aka a wing)?
*There can be lineups where the third big plays as a second player in the 4 position that can fade to the perimeter - or a stretch 4? 
*A wing is a term used on offense. Justin can guard a wing, but that doesn't make necessarily make him a wing on the other side of the floor?

In conclusion, CAM will throw line-ups in that will include Justin and 2 other bigs, but that still doesn't necessarily give him the typical responsibilities a wing would have.  The 'traditional' responsibilities of a wing being what you defined above: coming off ball screens, looking to create, shoot, penetrate and dish or finish, etc.

So in a line-up of Brunk, TJD, Justin, Green, and RP, is there not a 3 on the floor or is Green playing a 2/3 combo in this instance?
 

[DC2345]

7 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

It seems like the misconceptions are coming in the form of semantics. Correct me if i'm wrong. Based on what you are portraying, the misconception comes from line-ups that include Justin and 2 other bigs?

*Just because Justin is playing the third big doesn't necessarily make him a *prototypical* 3 (aka a wing)?
*There can be lineups where the third big plays as a second player in the 4 position that can fade to the perimeter - or a stretch 4? 
*A wing is a term used on offense. Justin can guard a wing, but that doesn't make necessarily make him a wing on the other side of the floor?

In conclusion, CAM will throw line-ups in that will include Justin and 2 other bigs, but that still doesn't necessarily give him the typical responsibilities a wing would have.  The 'traditional' responsibilities of a wing being what you defined above: coming off ball screens, looking to create, shoot, penetrate and dish or finish, etc.

So in a line-up of Brunk, TJD, Justin, Green, and RP, is there not a 3 on the floor or is Green playing a 2/3 combo in this instance?
 

He would be the 3. Plain and simple. He would run sets and offense as the 3. Now will he be looked at to shoot a 3 every possession? No but in that lineup he would be the 3 on offense and likely guard the 3 for the other team. 3/wing/small forward it doesn't matter how you state it it's the same position. Not every team makes that person make decisons and shoot most do but not all. It doesn't matter if he posts up the other teams 3 every possession. He is still playing as the 3 in the lineup. So many people here are expecting the 3 to be a go to perimeter scorer or point forward type and that isn't always the case. I could pull up examples with video clips but that is a lot of work and unnecessary. I think. 

[IUFLA]

32 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

If everyone gets healthy and stays that way I am interested to see who starts and how the rotation plays out. Smith played the best last night and I have heard people say that Al has looked the best in practice.  I would think that RP, Green, TJD and Brunk looks like starters so who would the 5th be between Al and Smith.

I don't see how we can play Al, DG, and RP a lot together and keep our depth balanced too well. We're deeper in the front court positions, at least in my eyes.

Against teams that pressure the ball (Illinois comes to mind) I'd imagine we'll see more of it.

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

I don't see how we can play Al, DG, and RPa lot together and keep our depth balanced too well. We're deeper in the front court positions, at least in my eyes.

Against teams that pressure the ball (Illinois comes to mind) I'd imagine we'll see more of it.

To me it would be hard to tell Al he will come off the bench since he has been playing better than anyone so far this year.

[Inequality]

[btownmd]

I think Archie has more flexibility with his line ups this year than he has in the past.  I also think with the way Smith defends and with the much improved handle and control he exhibited last night, if that continues he won't be coming off the bench.  We could go smaller/faster with RP, Green, Al, Smith, TJD, or larger/post-oriented with RP, Green, Smith, TJD, and Brunk to start, and adjust from there.  I think once our guards are healthier we will see more of the former as the starting lineup.

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

To me it would be hard to tell Al he will come off the bench since he has been playing better than anyone so far this year.

That would be tough, but I think Al is a team first kinda guy and would understand...plus, I think you've said that it doesn't really matter who starts, it's how many minutes they get and who's on the floor at the end.

[tdhoosier]

3 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I don't see how we can play Al, DG, and RPa lot together and keep our depth balanced too well. We're deeper in the front court positions, at least in my eyes.

Against teams that pressure the ball (Illinois comes to mind) I'd imagine we'll see more of it.

If Franklin keeps it up, there could be somewhat of a steady 4 player rotation. And every once in a while Anderson can step in.

Franklin really impressed me last night. He just looked very and steady and confident for a Freshman. I think the kid is going to get minutes and I'm hoping the performance last night wasn't one of those random 'freshman fool's gold' performances. 

[5fouls]

Al will play more minutes per game than RP.

[DC2345]

Starting Lineup: Phinisee, Green, Smith, Jackson-Davis, and Brunk

Bench 1's and 2's: Durham, Franklin, and Anderson

Bench 3's: Hunter, Anderson, and Franklin

Bench 4's: Thompson 

Bench 5: Davis

Starters could be used with certain bench lineups to fill positional need. 

[Zlinedavid]

I'm ordering hot wings for lunch after reading this. 

[IUFLA]

9 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

If Franklin keeps it up, there could be somewhat of a steady 4 player rotation. And every once in a while Anderson can step in.

Franklin really impressed me last night. He just looked very and steady and confident for a Freshman. I think the kid is going to get minutes and I'm hoping the performance last night wasn't one of those random 'freshman fool's gold' performances. 

Agree...as I said above, beside a couple of ill-advised passes and some defensive miscues, he was solid. 

I truly think that Archie is giving both Franklin and Anderson the most minutes for a reason. I know Devonte and Al were nursing minor injuries, but I think he wants to give Armaan and Damezi a confidence boost.