Early Assessment

[FW_Hoosier]

4 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

I'm a little surprised Fisch said that. Not that he's wrong...just that Fisch is usually pretty close to the vest about stuff like that, particularly during the season.

It’s pretty clear if you’re not looking at things through cream and crimson colored glasses.  Archie himself has said as much.  Right now, this group of players is soft and mentally weak.  We’re seeing a continuation of last season’s pathetic effort.  “Adjusting to a new system” does not lead to getting blown out by ISU and squeaking by Howard at home.  Archie needs to get this figured out quickly, or things will get very ugly.

[hoosiertildeath]

Don't forget , The FIRING of Coach Crean really affected our RETURNING PLAYERS !! And it was TWO Freshmen players ( that did not play for Coach Crean )who saved the day for IU versus Howard Univers, Aljami Durham and Justin Smith !! As for those returning IU players , I think they will get that out of their system quickly or the 3 Freshmen are gonna get to play a lot of minutes !!

P.S. Durham played 30 minutes versus Howard and scored 16 points !! Smith Played 27 minutes and he also scored 16 points !

P.S. Again , ONLY Deron Davis with 17 points in 29 minutes of playing time outscored Smith And Durham  !! Remember Davis is only a SOPHOMORE AND SMITH & DURHAM ARE ONLY  FRESHMEN !! IU is very YOUNG        and needs Hartmann to get and stay healthy !!           

P.S. Again-- IU has 18 players on their roster !! Only 2 Seniors STARTERS ! TEN of the 18 players are FRESHMEN and SOPHOMORES ! I think this is a good thing because Archie will have plenty of time to Coach them up and get them BETTER !!          

[tdhoosier]

57 minutes ago, zerawkid said:

I think a narrative is being suggested and adopted. Nobody knows what was fueling the mindset of those players at the end of the game. If we can start piecing together a perspective based on *actual* commentary from the players, I might buy it.

I didn’t typically see lack of effort on the floor much. I saw people active on both ends of the floor, consistently. Lack of cohesiveness and lack of experience in the system, sure. 

Let me suggest some other possibilities for the players’ facial expressions and body language:

1.) Feeling they were better and more prepared than a nine-point win over Howard. Not being pleased with their execution based on how they thought they were doing practice.

2.) Feeling they were letting down Coach Miller and company. Knowing they are gonna get their asses handed to them in practice. 

3.) Already reeling from Collin’s absence, perhaps watching Juwan go down early threw a huge wrench into their plans and that bummed them out.

4.) Soggy brains. They have, no doubt, been in a crash course trying to retrain and relearn a brand new system and set of expectations. They might well just be inundated with information.

To assume something such as negativity leading to them giving up is such a huge leap and assumption, it’s just not fair. Not fair to the kids, the staff, or even to your own expectations as a fan. Two games into a brand new regime without our top three leading scorers from last years squad...I think people should pump the brakes on thinking the sky is already falling.

5. They really wanted to see Priller play.

6. They wanted a free burrito from Chipotle and were upset they couldn't score 100. 

[ButlerHoosier]

As I have stated in the Howard game thread you see a team not fully buying in right now. The reason for that is cause of such a stark contrast in coaching philosophies and styles. One is more along the lines of a Coach Knight aka CAM and the other is more along the lines of a more nuturing coach. Sorry can't think of one right now. You see that. These guys are acting like Landon Turner did when he played for Knight. Until he had his epiphany he wasn't playing well then bam it was like a different player. CAM is much like Knight it seems like. Very hard nosed fundamental defense first with a motion offense that is predicated on passing screening very fundamental basketball and is entrenched in a half court mindset with possible chances on fast break. You are starting to see that with the freshmen and possibly the sophomores some cause they haven't had a long time to be accustomed to a certain system. So they are buying in cause it is what they know now. So it looks like it will be a process. I am just glad we are playing lower level teams to get our footing. I think as the year goes on we will see the team as a whole make a complete flip. I hope it will happen sooner rather than later. 

[INDenizen]

1 hour ago, zerawkid said:

I think a narrative is being suggested and adopted. Nobody knows what was fueling the mindset of those players at the end of the game. If we can start piecing together a perspective based on *actual* commentary from the players, I might buy it.

I didn’t typically see lack of effort on the floor much. I saw people active on both ends of the floor, consistently. Lack of cohesiveness and lack of experience in the system, sure. 

Let me suggest some other possibilities for the players’ facial expressions and body language:

1.) Feeling they were better and more prepared than a nine-point win over Howard. Not being pleased with their execution based on how they thought they were doing practice.

2.) Feeling they were letting down Coach Miller and company. Knowing they are gonna get their asses handed to them in practice. 

3.) Already reeling from Collin’s absence, perhaps watching Juwan go down early threw a huge wrench into their plans and that bummed them out.

4.) Soggy brains. They have, no doubt, been in a crash course trying to retrain and relearn a brand new system and set of expectations. They might well just be inundated with information.

To assume something such as negativity leading to them giving up is such a huge leap and assumption, it’s just not fair. Not fair to the kids, the staff, or even to your own expectations as a fan. Two games into a brand new regime without our top three leading scorers from last years squad...I think people should pump the brakes on thinking the sky is already falling.

Way too rational for the sky is falling crowd. Well done.

[IU Scott]

I am wondering if it does not change through the year how many transfers we could see at the end of the year. I can think of at least one or two who might leave because they don't look like they are buying in.  I would hope this years freshmen class to go along with Davis and next years class can be a start to rebuilding this roster.  We need to get guys in here you hates to lose and will play to their roles to help the team to win.

[jimsorgi]

1 hour ago, zerawkid said:

I think a narrative is being suggested and adopted. Nobody knows what was fueling the mindset of those players at the end of the game. If we can start piecing together a perspective based on *actual* commentary from the players, I might buy it.

I didn’t typically see lack of effort on the floor much. I saw people active on both ends of the floor, consistently. Lack of cohesiveness and lack of experience in the system, sure. 

Let me suggest some other possibilities for the players’ facial expressions and body language:

1.) Feeling they were better and more prepared than a nine-point win over Howard. Not being pleased with their execution based on how they thought they were doing practice.

2.) Feeling they were letting down Coach Miller and company. Knowing they are gonna get their asses handed to them in practice. 

3.) Already reeling from Collin’s absence, perhaps watching Juwan go down early threw a huge wrench into their plans and that bummed them out.

4.) Soggy brains. They have, no doubt, been in a crash course trying to retrain and relearn a brand new system and set of expectations. They might well just be inundated with information.

To assume something such as negativity leading to them giving up is such a huge leap and assumption, it’s just not fair. Not fair to the kids, the staff, or even to your own expectations as a fan. Two games into a brand new regime without our top three leading scorers from last years squad...I think people should pump the brakes on thinking the sky is already falling.

Yeah, this. They looked hesitant and unconfident in where they should be in the system. Let's see how they develop as their understanding of Archie's system grows before we write everyone off as weak and giving up.

[JaybobHoosier]

2 hours ago, zerawkid said:

I think a narrative is being suggested and adopted. Nobody knows what was fueling the mindset of those players at the end of the game. If we can start piecing together a perspective based on *actual* commentary from the players, I might buy it.

I didn’t typically see lack of effort on the floor much. I saw people active on both ends of the floor, consistently. Lack of cohesiveness and lack of experience in the system, sure. 

Let me suggest some other possibilities for the players’ facial expressions and body language:

1.) Feeling they were better and more prepared than a nine-point win over Howard. Not being pleased with their execution based on how they thought they were doing practice.

2.) Feeling they were letting down Coach Miller and company. Knowing they are gonna get their asses handed to them in practice. 

3.) Already reeling from Collin’s absence, perhaps watching Juwan go down early threw a huge wrench into their plans and that bummed them out.

4.) Soggy brains. They have, no doubt, been in a crash course trying to retrain and relearn a brand new system and set of expectations. They might well just be inundated with information.

To assume something such as negativity leading to them giving up is such a huge leap and assumption, it’s just not fair. Not fair to the kids, the staff, or even to your own expectations as a fan. Two games into a brand new regime without our top three leading scorers from last years squad...I think people should pump the brakes on thinking the sky is already falling.

First off, awesome post! Secondly, were from the old old scout days where everything originally started for some of us? 

[IowaHoosierFan]

We could just also not have a very good team.  Have some young talent.  Our seniors are not very tough and really don't step up.  And i can't blame or expect anything from Hartman since he hasn't played for like 3 years.  We just have to realize that at this point we are not very good.  Does that mean we won't get better, no.  One of the things i expect from CAM is to have this team get better and better.  If we win 15 games this year but look a hell of lot better at the end, i will be completely fine with it. 

But lets stop making excuses for what looks to be a mediocre team with no leadership at this point in time.  But i am NOT (This should have been NOT) saying the sky is falling.  We just might be starting from the ground already

[FW_Hoosier]

10 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

We could just also not have a very good team.  Have some young talent.  Our seniors are not very tough and really don't step up.  And i can't blame or expect anything from Hartman since he hasn't played for like 3 years.  We just have to realize that at this point we are not very good.  Does that mean we won't get better, no.  One of the things i expect from CAM is to have this team get better and better.  If we win 15 games this year but look a hell of lot better at the end, i will be completely fine with it. 

But lets stop making excuses for what looks to be a mediocre team with no leadership at this point in time.  But i am saying the sky is falling.  We just might be starting from the ground already

Sorry, but if you even think to question the mentality or toughness of players that just got beat down by ISU, barely beat Howard at home, and have been called out by both their coach and the team’s mainstay radio announcer, you’re totally irrational and think the sky is falling.  Shame on you.

[jimsorgi]

2 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Sorry, but if you even think to question the mentality or toughness of players that just got beat down by ISU, barely beat Howard at home, and have been called out by both their coach and the team’s mainstay radio announcer, you’re totally irrational and think the sky is falling.  Shame on you.

It's not about that.

It's perfectly reasonable to disagree - we have had two games, and everyone is trying to figure out what the team is. 

[FW_Hoosier]

23 minutes ago, jimsorgi said:

It's not about that.

It's perfectly reasonable to disagree - we have had two games, and everyone is trying to figure out what the team is. 

Totally agree with you.  I was just pointing out that some seem to think that anyone who isn’t taking the most optimistic view possible is being irrational and overreacting.

[jimsorgi]

16 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Totally agree with you.  I was just pointing out that some seem to think that anyone who isn’t taking the most optimistic view possible is being irrational and overreacting.

That's fair!

[Hoosierhoopster]

^^ It is fair, and Jimsorgi's point is well taken. Lots of things to figure out -- for the players, for the coaches, and for us! Next several games give us all a chance to see how this develops.

[Feathery]

I was on the bandwagon of it’s a new system and they are over thinking it. Then I see the freshmen get quality minutes and the team looks improved. Then I see a dejected bench and I’m confused. I went back and listened to the DF interview on the DD show today. Besides what was posted above DF says that Archie is trying everything he can think to keep himself from going crazy with this group. Archie is a hard nosed guy and expects his players to be the same way and they aren’t doing it. He went on to say it’s very close to us seeing some guys going to the end of the bench and staying there for awhile, while the freshmen get more time. To me that screams upperclassmen aren’t buying in, aren’t being positive leaders, and it’s showing in their play. 

I do think we miss Hartman. There is no way he steps on the court with an apathetic approach. He will force his teammates to step up. 

[zerawkid]

6 hours ago, JaybobHoosier said:

First off, awesome post! Secondly, were from the old old scout days where everything originally started for some of us? 

Thanks, buddy. And, yep...around for many years now.

[zerawkid]

9 hours ago, Jerry Lundergaard said:

I don't think that the sky is falling, and my comments were not based on just my own perceptions. When Fisch says what he did, someone who is universally accepted by this board and the fan base in general as being as connected as anyone to the program, then you have to listen to what he says. As FK said above, Fisch is normally close to the vest on the internal workings of the program. For him to make this comment speaks volumes to me. 

I hope that one of your scenarios is the true picture. What I saw was a bunch of kids who couldn't even stand up to cheer on their teammates as they wrapped up the first win in CAM's IU tenure. Hell, not only did they not stand up, waive towels, or what have you, they just sat there. 

 

Fair. And, I appreciate Fisch too. But, he’s an old guy getting older and an off the cuff remark about the overall mental or emotional state of the team isn’t an area in which his perspective should necessarily be taken as gospel. He’s just taking a dramatic stab at something...the B1G network guys made the same comment. I’m not jumping on board with their prognostication either. Too many factors, not enough in-the-know information. 

I’ll reserve my guesses for what they were thinking collectively at game’s end. Mainly because I have no idea. But, also, because I suspect it’s actually irrelevant.

[cohete15]

Last year we had bad team chemistry. This year has the same leaders as last year. 

We are getting the same result on the court, just less talent to hide it.

We are hesitant in our decision making. Seem a bit unsure of whether it’s ok to shoot or if we should make another pass. But we get a lot of open shots. The “new coach/system” isn’t the problem. It’s the attitude of some guys on the team...and I have a short list of who I think those guys are. 

If I was Archie, I would give those guys until conference play to be part of the team or not. No reason to keep them around. We don’t need anchors dragging us down. 

[Indykev]

58 minutes ago, cohete15 said:

Last year we had bad team chemistry. This year has the same leaders as last year. 

We are getting the same result on the court, just less talent to hide it.

We are hesitant in our decision making. Seem a bit unsure of whether it’s ok to shoot or if we should make another pass. But we get a lot of open shots. The “new coach/system” isn’t the problem. It’s the attitude of some guys on the team...and I have a short list of who I think those guys are. 

If I was Archie, I would give those guys until conference play to be part of the team or not. No reason to keep them around. We don’t need anchors dragging us down. 

Archie said this very thing. That the guys are thinking, is this a good shot or not and are over thinking right now. He said Rob and Josh will come around.

[jblaz13]

I welcome the demise of the former program culture with great optimism! It's supposed to look like it isn't fun when there was too much tolerance prior to Miller becoming coach. Time for these kids to pop that proverbial "t*t" out of their mouths suck it up and step up, or they can leave, and take the fans booing at the games with them!!!!!  Would it have been nice to see it happen right away ?? ...Of course, but life doesn't work out that way .Tough crap! 

 

On a separate note : It's great to see you on here, Jaybob! 

 

 

 

 

[Indykev]

2 hours ago, jblaz13 said:

I welcome the demise of the former program culture with great optimism! It's supposed to look like it isn't fun when there was too much tolerance prior to Miller becoming coach. Time for these kids to pop that proverbial "t*t" out of their mouths suck it up and step up, or they can leave, and take the fans booing at the games with them!!!!!  Would it have been nice to see it happen right away ?? ...Of course, but life doesn't work out that way .Tough crap! 

 

On a separate note : It's great to see you on here, Jaybob! 

 

 

 

 

Its going to take a good year to change the culture. This senior group has to go. Its to late for them to change. Will they get better, yes to a point but not fully. I've watched the games a couple times and you can just see Archie wanting to explode. I'm sure its all he can do to hold back right now. When you see the freshman out playing the seniors its all about the culture, the freshman didn't play for Crean. They only know what Archie wants them to do. Its going to take some time and some hard knocks to get this thing going.

[ephul]

52 minutes ago, Indykev said:

Its going to take a good year to change the culture. This senior group has to go. Its to late for them to change. Will they get better, yes to a point but not fully. I've watched the games a couple times and you can just see Archie wanting to explode. I'm sure its all he can do to hold back right now. When you see the freshman out playing the seniors its all about the culture, the freshman didn't play for Crean. They only know what Archie wants them to do. Its going to take some time and some hard knocks to get this thing going.

I'm up and down on this. The leadership has been disappointing. However, a guy like Rob, who apparently wants to go Pro, isn't going to throw his senior season away.

I think it's just that hard to bust them out of their habits. It's creating doubt in themselves. And it's hard to be a leader, when you don't feel like you have the knowledge and understanding to lead.

[Zuckerkorn]

Many good comments that I agree with in this thread.  I'll add a few from having only seen the Howard game:

1. While not exuberant, I didn't really see the dejected attitude.  Perhaps it's because we've seen it to some extent in the past from some our veteran players.

2. The signs are definitely there of a team that is -finally- being taught and given expectations on how to play a solid system of defense.

3. I remember in the RMK years that shot allocation needed to be divided up with the better shooters getting the most shots.  Newkirk needs to be more of facilitator and a secondary shooter. 

4. Very positive signs from the freshmen.  Unfortunately, typically they will be inconsistent and prone to hitting "the wall" at some point during the season.

5. I suspect the team had some strenuous practice after the ISU game and that resulted in some of what we saw Sunday.  Davis' first two FT's were very short (and off all night).  This is a kid that shot around 75% last year.  I'm sure they've shot extra FT's in practice, but I don't think we'll be a sub-60% team from the line (I sure hope not).

[Feathery]

4 hours ago, Zuckerkorn said:

Many good comments that I agree with in this thread.  I'll add a few from having only seen the Howard game:

1. While not exuberant, I didn't really see the dejected attitude.  Perhaps it's because we've seen it to some extent in the past from some our veteran players.

2. The signs are definitely there of a team that is -finally- being taught and given expectations on how to play a solid system of defense.

3. I remember in the RMK years that shot allocation needed to be divided up with the better shooters getting the most shots.  Newkirk needs to be more of facilitator and a secondary shooter. 

4. Very positive signs from the freshmen.  Unfortunately, typically they will be inconsistent and prone to hitting "the wall" at some point during the season.

5. I suspect the team had some strenuous practice after the ISU game and that resulted in some of what we saw Sunday.  Davis' first two FT's were very short (and off all night).  This is a kid that shot around 75% last year.  I'm sure they've shot extra FT's in practice, but I don't think we'll be a sub-60% team from the line (I sure hope not).

I’m pretty sure Archie said they had a light practice on Saturday bc there was only 1 day between games. 

[Reacher]

I"ll put this here but the topic of opponent 3 pt shooting was also discussed in the Seton Hall thread. 

3 point shots are a weakness of the pack line defense. If we are successful shutting down the inside, teams will be forced to shoot more 3s. 

I think our interior defense, size, athleticism, blocks pushed ISU out. The fact they had early success shooting gave them more confidence. They shot the lights out. As others have said, you aren't going to win many when the other team shoots 17-22 from 3. If they shoot ONLY 50%, that's 18 less points. We shoot slightly better, we win easily. 

There is always the chance a hot shooting team will beat us. That is not unique. I think ISU was the perfect opponent to do so given their good shooters and lack of focus on an inside game. If Seton Hall shoots 25+ 3's I have to think we will benefit. 

Archie mentioned 10 or so of the ISU shots could have prevented if the defensive execution was better. I did not watch the game so can only go by what I have read. I assume close outs and etc will improve.

I think some people are overreacting to a single game or performance of a single player. The team is learning a new system and players, especially the younger guys, will be up and down. After the one exhibition game, Green was going to save the season and be our leading scorer. After the last game, Al and Josh should start. Younger guys are going to have their ups and downs and we are seeing that. Hopefully, Archie can find the hot hand on any given night and ride that. We will see soon enough how things unfold but I'm not worried yet.