"Tough Love" Stories

[BGleas]

On 10/25/2020 at 8:52 AM, IUFLA said:

 

I didn't want this thread to run off the rails like this...I understand that cell phones and internet make it nice for a lot of us to perform our jobs, myself included. My issue was with calling them a "necessity" for everyone in the grand scheme of getting a job, buying a house, and merging into adult life from college or high school. Few people really need a cell phone to perform their jobs, And if it is "essential" most of the time a company pays for it. Individually, we've become reliant on the internet for many things, but people can and do live without it.

Financial expenditures should be dictated by your circumstances and income, not by what everyone else has. It takes time, but it seems nowadays people don't want to wait.

 

I don’t know how old you are, but as a 42 year old that is a parent of 3 kids in middle/elementary school, cell phones and internet access are not just “nice to have’s”. Like I said, “necessity” was a strong word. No, cell phones and internet access are not food, air and water, of course not. 

But with that said, my family would be at a massive, massive disadvantage if we didn’t have them. My ability to make an income would be diminished, my children’s education would be diminished and my kids ability to participate in extra curricular activities would be greatly diminished. 

The internet and cell phones go well beyond just needing them for jobs where they’re required. They’re not like getting the newest Nike’s because they’re cool or getting pool in your back yard. They’re as close to a needed tool to operate in the modern world as you can get. 

 

[IUFLA]

11 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I don’t know how old you are, but as a 42 year old that is a parent of 3 kids in middle/elementary school, cell phones and internet access are not just “nice to have’s”. Like I said, “necessity” was a strong word. No, cell phones and internet access are not food, air and water, of course not. 

But with that said, my family would be at a massive, massive disadvantage if we didn’t have them. My ability to make an income would be diminished, my children’s education would be diminished and my kids ability to participate in extra curricular activities would be greatly diminished. 

The internet and cell phones go well beyond just needing them for jobs where they’re required. They’re not like getting the newest Nike’s because they’re cool or getting pool in your back yard. They’re as close to a needed tool to operate in the modern world as you can get. 

 

I'm 63 and have raised 3 children to adulthood. All college grads (2 with advanced degrees), and the first two, 36 and 34 are very successful. The youngest just achieved her graduate degree in May, so she's just starting out. But I'm confident she will be successful as well.

The two older ones didn't have access to the internet until high school, and none of them had a cell phone until we gave one to my youngest when she was a senior in high school. They all participated in extra curricular activities. A lot of them. Swimming, dance, theater, baseball/softball, track, and horse back riding. 

You're fortunate in that you can provide those things to your children, and I don't begrudge you that one bit. But not everyone can do that for their children. Do cell phones make communication easier? Certainly, but not impossible. Does having internet in your home make access to information easier? Sure, but once again, not impossible. 

I grew up in a poor household. My Dad had a 7th grade education because his father died when he was 12 and he had to support his Mother...during The Great Depression. My Dad tried his best, but his income ceiling was limited by his lack of education. He taught me work ethic and not to fear failure.

My initial challenge to your statement about "necessity" was based on your assumption on the responsibility of paying bills like internet and cell phones and buying a house, as if it were more difficult to do do today. 

I can guarantee you that it's easier to qualify for a mortgage today than it was 50 years ago. 20% down was pretty much mandatory (unless you'd been in the service and had the GI Bill) and you had to have good credit. Not so today. 

It comes down to priorities. If you can afford cell phones for your children and want to provide them to your kids, that's fine. But it's not an option for some people. Same with internet. I see so many misplaced priorities today...

But as nice as those are to have, they'll never replace family values and work ethic. Those are necessities in my book. And I'm positive you and your wife are doing a good job there.  

People who want to succeed normally do succeed. 

 

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

I'm 63 and have raised 3 children to adulthood. All college grads (2 with advanced degrees), and the first two, 36 and 34 are very successful. The youngest just achieved her graduate degree in May, so she's just starting out. But I'm confident she will be successful as well.

The two older ones didn't have access to the internet until high school, and none of them had a cell phone until we gave one to my youngest when she was a senior in high school. They all participated in extra curricular activities. A lot of them. Swimming, dance, theater, baseball/softball, track, and horse back riding. 

You're fortunate in that you can provide those things to your children, and I don't begrudge you that one bit. But not everyone can do that for their children. Do cell phones make communication easier? Certainly, but not impossible. Does having internet in your home make access to information easier? Sure, but once again, not impossible. 

I grew up in a poor household. My Dad had a 7th grade education because his father died when he was 12 and he had to support his Mother...during The Great Depression. My Dad tried his best, but his income ceiling was limited by his lack of education. He taught me work ethic and not to fear failure.

My initial challenge to your statement about "necessity" was based on your assumption on the responsibility of paying bills like internet and cell phones and buying a house, as if it were more difficult to do do today. 

I can guarantee you that it's easier to qualify for a mortgage today than it was 50 years ago. 20% down was pretty much mandatory (unless you'd been in the service and had the GI Bill) and you had to have good credit. Not so today. 

It comes down to priorities. If you can afford cell phones for your children and want to provide them to your kids, that's fine. But it's not an option for some people. Same with internet. I see so many misplaced priorities today...

But as nice as those are to have, they'll never replace family values and work ethic. Those are necessities in my book. And I'm positive you and your wife are doing a good job there.  

People who want to succeed normally do succeed. 

 

Right now being unemployed I understand where you are coming from.  Saying that you can't look for jobs today without the internet because that is the only way companies are taking applicants.  Also most correspond with you  through email about setting up interviews or they call you on your cell phone.

[mrflynn03]

58 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Right now being unemployed I understand where you are coming from.  Saying that you can't look for jobs today without the internet because that is the only way companies are taking applicants.  Also most correspond with you  through email about setting up interviews or they call you on your cell phone.

Praying for you. I wish you well and I am aggravated that our Congress is playing politics while us, the taxpayers, people in your situation need relief.  

[HoosierFaithful]

IUFLA, I respect your viewpoint and your experiences, but your argument is “when I was a parent, these tools weren’t necessary.”

I don’t doubt your statement was true. It also doesn’t do much to refute BGleas’ point, IMO. Tech is inherently modern. To say that 20 years ago you raised kids without it is.. well, kind of the point. 
 

[IUFLA]

5 hours ago, HoosierFaithful said:

IUFLA, I respect your viewpoint and your experiences, but your argument is “when I was a parent, these tools weren’t necessary.”

I don’t doubt your statement was true. It also doesn’t do much to refute BGleas’ point, IMO. Tech is inherently modern. To say that 20 years ago you raised kids without it is.. well, kind of the point. 
 

Not the point at all. @BGleas tried to make the argument that buying a house now is more difficult because of more bills driven by "necessity" i. e internet and cellphone bills. That's putting the cart before the horse in my estimation. My post referred to priorities and the fact that you can live your life without these things if you need to direct money elsewhere...

Either @BGleasor @KoB2011 made the statement "90% of the workforce couldn't, its probably closer to 99%" get along without cell phones or internet. That statement is not even close to being true. No one working retail, or in a factory, or waiting tables needs a cell phone to do their job. A higher percentage might need the internet, but no where close to 9 out of 10 people.

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

Not the point at all. @BGleas tried to make the argument that buying a house now is more difficult because of more bills driven by "necessity" i. e internet and cellphone bills. That's putting the cart before the horse in my estimation. My post referred to priorities and the fact that you can live your life without these things if you need to direct money elsewhere...

Either @BGleasor @KoB2011 made the statement "90% of the workforce couldn't, its probably closer to 99%" get along without cell phones or internet. That statement is not even close to being true. No one working retail, or in a factory, or waiting tables needs a cell phone to do their job. A higher percentage might need the internet, but no where close to 9 out of 10 people.

But most people working in retail or waiting tables will never be able to afford to buy a house in today's society, unless that is a secondary income. 

In 1970, the median household income was $8,300 (this was frequently off of one income, and could be earned by people working retail and as servers, etc.) and the average house cost $27,000. A little more than 3x.

Today... the median household income is $68,400 (this is with many more houses having two workers) but the average price of a home is $387,000. Nearly 6x. 

This doesn't even factor in the cost of childcare, student debt, the rising cost of things like healthcare, utilities, etc. 

You see the issue? It isn't because anyone that can't afford a house is mismanaging money, it's because the game is rigged against the younger generation. 

[IUFLA]

I want to reset this conversation because I feel I haven't been clear with the point I'm trying to make...

I questioned why so many millennials are still at home into their 30s, saying that if one of my children were still living at home, I would question the job I did in preparing them for adulthood. @BGleas stated that it was more difficult to buy a house now because of additional bills that our parents didn't have. To me, that depends on your priorities.

I can in no way, shape, or form, outside of extenuating circumstances, believe I could have lived with my parents into my mid twenties even...And, as much as I love my girls, I wouldn't want my adult children living with me unless it was absolutely necessary. I told them early on in their young adult lives that they could live with us until they got on their feet, but my house, my rules...

So that's the crux of my argument...If you want to be an adult, you sometimes have to sacrifice to have the things you want. I certainly did. I'm not against technology at all (as a matter of fact, I think I embrace it more that most in my age group) and I don't begrudge people who want cell phones and internet for their kids and can afford it...

[IUFLA]

6 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

This doesn't even factor in the cost of childcare, student debt, the rising cost of things like healthcare, utilities, etc. 

Childcare and student debt are residual effects of choices you made beforehand without considering the consequences down the road...Again, priorities...

[mrflynn03]

IMHO, the main factor driving up prices is the credit based economy.  Back when life was cheaper you couldn't just go to the bank and get whatever kind of loan you wanted. 

When I bought my house, I took my binder with all my monthly expenses listed and told the loan officer what kind of payment I wanted and no more. He said nobody had ever done that before and people come in asking how much they can get. 

And loan recommendations based off of gross income has to be the dumbest thing ever. 

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

Childcare and student debt are residual effects of choices you made beforehand without considering the consequences down the road...Again, priorities...

You've got to be kidding me...  You don't think as a society we strongly push people towards both of those two things? 

[IUFLA]

39 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

You've got to be kidding me...  You don't think as a society we strongly push people towards both of those two things? 

Ever heard of personal responsibility?

My estimation is, the younger generation rigs the game against themselves...

There's renting...In my area, there are affordable apartments for almost every wage category...I lived in a mobile home for the first 2 years I was married because that's what we could afford. 

And having 100K + student loan debt is ridiculous...All of my kids started at the community college level, and then went to their 4 year school...Their degrees read the same as everyone else who graduated from that school...

I guess that's my problem...I loathe it when people won't do things because it's "beneath them." You do what's necessary...Asking your parents or the government for that matter (in our current posture I do understand government help can be necessary) to bail me out doesn't cut it if I can do something to help myself...no matter whether I think it's beneath me or not...

 

[KoB2011]

48 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Ever heard of personal responsibility?

My estimation is, the younger generation rigs the game against themselves...

There's renting...In my area, there are affordable apartments for almost every wage category...I lived in a mobile home for the first 2 years I was married because that's what we could afford. 

And having 100K + student loan debt is ridiculous...All of my kids started at the community college level, and then went to their 4 year school...Their degrees read the same as everyone else who graduated from that school...

I guess that's my problem...I loathe it when people won't do things because it's "beneath them." You do what's necessary...Asking your parents or the government for that matter (in our current posture I do understand government help can be necessary) to bail me out doesn't cut it if I can do something to help myself...no matter whether I think it's beneath me or not...

 

I couldn't disagree with this more. The "younger generation" can't have rigged the game against ourselves, we haven't been the ones making decisions for the country and we aren't the ones who raised ourselves. The older generation is to blame, either through failed policies or failed parenting. There really is no way around it. 

And I'm not coming at this from the angle of someone who has personally suffered because of this, but I do recognize who fortunate I am that I haven't. 

[IUFLA]

17 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I couldn't disagree with this more. The "younger generation" can't have rigged the game against ourselves, we haven't been the ones making decisions for the country and we aren't the ones who raised ourselves. The older generation is to blame, either through failed policies or failed parenting. There really is no way around it. 

And I'm not coming at this from the angle of someone who has personally suffered because of this, but I do recognize who fortunate I am that I haven't. 

And as I said, people in my generation and subsequent ones did the parenting, so in a way I agree with you. 

I saw to it that our children understood personal responsibility. For actions, both good and bad, there are consequences, again, good and bad.

I'm afraid though that personal responsibility takes a back seat to "I want it no matter the consequences" today, and then expect me, through my tax dollars, to subsidize your bad decision. 

You know, appeasement doesn't work with human beings. Never has, never will. Didn't work with Hitler at Munich, doesn't work with raising kids, and it doesn't work in leadership or managing people. 

And to come full circle on this topic, that's where "tough love" (and I'm certainly not talking about physical abuse that's been brought up in this thread) comes in. Sometimes just saying "no" broke my heart, but I did it to help them understand life isn't all sunshine, lollipops, and people saying yes all the time...

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

And as I said, people in my generation and subsequent ones did the parenting, so in a way I agree with you. 

I saw to it that our children understood personal responsibility. For actions, both good and bad, there are consequences, again, good and bad.

I'm afraid though that personal responsibility takes a back seat to "I want it no matter the consequences" today, and then expect me, through my tax dollars, to subsidize your bad decision. 

You know, appeasement doesn't work with human beings. Never has, never will. Didn't work with Hitler at Munich, doesn't work with raising kids, and it doesn't work in leadership or managing people. 

And to come full circle on this topic, that's where "tough love" (and I'm certainly not talking about physical abuse that's been brought up in this thread) comes in. Sometimes just saying "no" broke my heart, but I did it to help them understand life isn't all sunshine, lollipops, and people saying yes all the time...

What is funny the generation before us probably said the same thing about our generation

[Reacher]

On 10/24/2020 at 12:01 PM, KoB2011 said:

I think the living at home thing is an interesting discussion and I'm not sure there is necessarily one answer that covers it. You've mentioned parenting and student debt which I think plays into it, but I also think we have to look at the skyrocketing price of homes combined with stagnant wages as well. 

While home prices are higher in many areas--not as much in IL- historically low mortgage rates have made housing more affordable than anytime in the last 50 years.  @BGleas, I think we spend more $ on other things (vacations, phones, internet, cable, dining, entertainment, etc) than our parents generation which might make housing seem more expensive just because the mortgage is likely our biggest bill. 

[mrflynn03]

32 minutes ago, Reacher said:

While home prices are higher in many areas--not as much in IL- historically low mortgage rates have made housing more affordable than anytime in the last 50 years.  @BGleas, I think we spend more $ on other things (vacations, phones, internet, cable, dining, entertainment, etc) than our parents generation which might make housing seem more expensive just because the mortgage is likely our biggest bill. 

Affordable as in lower interest rates?  

Here is my deal with housing. The vast majority of people are financially illiterate.  When I was doing research before buying my house (Aug 2009) the standard seemed to be your mortgage should be %35 of gross income. Guess who came up with that foolishness? The banking industry.

That would mean I would have a mortgage of $1100 not including taxes and insurance.  BTW, as I'm sure you know, the bank dont tell you that because they just want to sell the loan.  

Walked into the bank and said $550 a month including escrow and no higher, what can I get. Spent $20,000 less than what I was approved for.

So my actual mortgage is $235 a month. At the time $550 is what I was paying for rent. If everyone did this housing would be so much cheaper. 

I didnt want a big house and yard because I would rather not have a big house to clean or a big yard to mow on my days off. 

[Reacher]

22 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I couldn't disagree with this more. The "younger generation" can't have rigged the game against ourselves, we haven't been the ones making decisions for the country and we aren't the ones who raised ourselves. The older generation is to blame, either through failed policies or failed parenting. There really is no way around it. 

And I'm not coming at this from the angle of someone who has personally suffered because of this, but I do recognize who fortunate I am that I haven't. 

I don't subscribe to this way of thinking. Yes, there is a shortage of starter homes due to increased regulations since 2008, higher commodity prices, lack of desirable locations, etc and the fact that 5 million have been bought by investors and turned into rentals. With that said, there are plenty of homes under $200k. They are just older, smaller, and or in less desirable areas. I know it's harder in NY and CA, but in the Chicagoland area, there are tons. In IN, OH and other areas, housing is even more affordable. 

The problem, IMO, is many kids want a new home, twice the size of their grandparents, close to their job, and in the best school district in the state. I endured a commute of 1-2 hours (each way) for many years and that was a big factor that prompted me to start my own business. There is nothing wrong starting off in a townhome or smaller, older home and learning the skills necessary to repair, maintain, and improve it. 

I'm jealous of the people I know in AZ that get nice home appreciation every year because of the increased demand. I'd encourage younger people to move to the faster growing cities / states as there will be more job opportunities and faster home appreciation allowing for increased wealth generation. Not saying that should be the primary focus, but let's not complain about it if we are refusing to make the sacrifices (living below our means, right education, continuing that education, relocating, etc) that will be beneficial.

Dave Ramsey has all sorts of YOUNG followers that now own their homes WITHOUT a mortgage. It can be done. 

[Reacher]

14 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said:

Affordable as in lower interest rates?  

Here is my deal with housing. The vast majority of people are financially illiterate.  When I was doing research before buying my house (Aug 2009) the standard seemed to be your mortgage should be %35 of gross income. Guess who came up with that foolishness? The banking industry.

That would mean I would have a mortgage of $1100 not including taxes and insurance.  BTW, as I'm sure you know, the bank dont tell you that because they just want to sell the loan.  

Walked into the bank and said $550 a month including escrow and no higher, what can I get. Spent $20,000 less than what I was approved for.

So my actual mortgage is $235 a month. At the time $550 is what I was paying for rent. If everyone did this housing would be so much cheaper. 

I didnt want a big house and yard because I would rather not have a big house to clean or a big yard to mow on my days off. 

That chart measures affordability as housing payment divided by income. Since mortgage rates are so low, payments are lower as well. 

Kudos to you for living within your means!

Everyone reading this should consider whether a refi makes sense. 30 yr rates are at 3% (and under)!

[mrflynn03]

@Reacher

I paid $62,000 for a 100 year old 940 sq ft house. Still live in it.  1 hr 15 min commute.  The best part, plenty of money left over to save and blow. 

[KoB2011]

43 minutes ago, Reacher said:

 

Dave Ramsey has all sorts of YOUNG followers that now own their homes WITHOUT a mortgage. It can be done. 

I think you make some solid points in the rest of your post, don't necessarily agree 100% with them all but solid and want to avoid getting into any type of policy discussion. 

But this point.... I think Dave Ramsey gives some flat out bad advice. From buying a home in cash (AWFUL IDEA), to not using credit cards, to forgoing employer matches on a 401(k) to pay off debt faster.... Dave Ramsey gets a lot really wrong. Anyone that follows Dave Ramsey too closely I can guarantee is holding themselves back financially. 

[mrflynn03]

3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I think you make some solid points in the rest of your post, don't necessarily agree 100% with them all but solid and want to avoid getting into any type of policy discussion. 

But this point.... I think Dave Ramsey gives some flat out bad advice. From buying a home in cash (AWFUL IDEA), to not using credit cards, to forgoing employer matches on a 401(k) to pay off debt faster.... Dave Ramsey gets a lot really wrong. Anyone that follows Dave Ramsey too closely I can guarantee is holding themselves back financially. 

For the majority of people Dave Ramseys investing advice is terrible. Never leave company match on the table. That is part your compensation.  The average is around 2%  if you cant match that you have problems. I follow the bogleheads guide to investing myself.  

However, his snowball method for tackling debt is solid though for most people.

Not everyone needs to go to college either. 

 

[Reacher]

9 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

But this point.... I think Dave Ramsey gives some flat out bad advice. From buying a home in cash (AWFUL IDEA), to not using credit cards, to forgoing employer matches on a 401(k) to pay off debt faster.... Dave Ramsey gets a lot really wrong. Anyone that follows Dave Ramsey too closely I can guarantee is holding themselves back financially. 

I'm actually with you on the bolded part. People can do much better. Ramsey does a great job on getting people to live within their means.  I can't say that his followers have done poorly, and in many cases, would not have been where they are without his motivation, yet, financially could do even better. I agree leverage is powerful in building wealth with real estate but would not say paying cash for a home is a universally "awful idea". 

[KoB2011]

1 minute ago, Reacher said:

I'm actually with you on the bolded part. People can do much better. Ramsey does a great job on getting people to live within their means.  I can't say that his followers have done poorly, and in many cases, would not have been where they are without his motivation, yet, financially could do even better. I agree leverage is powerful in building wealth with real estate but would not say paying cash for a home is a universally "awful idea". 

The reason I say it is an "awful idea" is because you could do better investing that money and having an interest rate of 3-4% (if you're getting a 7-8% return on the investment minus the interest rate.... you're coming out ahead) and you also lose out on having a tax write-off for your mortgage. 

But I do agree, he does a good job of helping people live within their means that need a starting place. A lot of people don't need that starting place and hold themselves back or once they get some good fundamentals never graduate past him; both situations leaves a lot of money on the table. 

[KoB2011]

9 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said:

For the majority of people Dave Ramseys investing advice is terrible. Never leave company match on the table. That is part your compensation.  The average is around 2%  if you cant match that you have problems. I follow the bogleheads guide to investing myself.  

However, his snowball method for tackling debt is solid though for most people.

Not everyone needs to go to college either. 

 

I agree about his method for tackling debt and not everyone needing to go to college; I think we need to do a better job of promoting things like trade schools. Those are jobs that pay well and are typically performing necessary tasks.