addictedtoIU Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 hour ago, IU Scott said: I think the main difference with people on here is how they look at expectations. Some look at it like this is Indiana and we have always been one of the top teams in the conference. I know when I look at expectations I look at it year to year and how I think we will do in a certain year. I look at our roster compared to the other teams and look to see how I think it will play out. I don't put my expectations on the history of a program but rather the actual team going into the season You have a reasonable approach in that you evaluate the current roster and adjust your expectation for the year. But the thing is this type of 'expectation' is only a part of it. There's also the expectation what the program should be; oftentimes, this type of expectation can be detached from reality, but it's necessary to improve the program and to have a long term vision. My own tendency is to look at this thing based on 'investment vs return'. If IU has, for example, a top 15 budget (not just $$$ paid to the coach) for men's basketball, anything below top 15 is underachievement and not really acceptable. IMO, rebuilding is done, and it's time to start seeing some results. Tournament appearance should be a must this season, and we should be top 25 at the end of the season because we have enough talent and experience. And just like you, I try hard not to get caught up with our glorified history. It's nice to have 5 banners, but until we start adding more banners, old banners are nothing but nostalgia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, addictedtoIU said: You have a reasonable approach in that you evaluate the current roster and adjust your expectation for the year. But the thing is this type of 'expectation' is only a part of it. There's also the expectation what the program should be; oftentimes, this type of expectation can be detached from reality, but it's necessary to improve the program and to have a long term vision. My own tendency is to look at this thing based on 'investment vs return'. If IU has, for example, a top 15 budget (not just $$$ paid to the coach) for men's basketball, anything below top 15 is underachievement and not really acceptable. IMO, rebuilding is done, and it's time to start seeing some results. Tournament appearance should be a must this season, and we should be top 25 at the end of the season because we have enough talent and experience. And just like you, I try hard not to get caught up with our glorified history. It's nice to have 5 banners, but until we start adding more banners, old banners are nothing but nostalgia. What surprised me when looking at the highest paid coach list that Utah had the 8tj highest paid coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSaccamanno Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 hour ago, GaloisGroupe said: Again, I think "good wins" is scaled for IU football vs. IU basketball. I looked and I do not think that our football team beat a single ranked team in 2017-2019. In 2017 and 2018 we closed the seasons 2-5 and 1-6 respectively... better than a 1-12 streak, but not otherworldly better. We have the two wins against ranked teams this year, but I have seen PSU and Michigan against other teams and they are terrible. NB: I am not criticizing Allen AT ALL; I am extremely excited by how well IU is playing this year and where I think they are going... But this is his fourth season and his first three seasons are similar to CAM's (especially if we had made it into the tournament last year). I am saying that because he was coaching IU football NOT IU basketball, Coach Allen was given more time to put his team together. Addition: If we beat OSU this weekend, then the bar will be really set high for CAM and our basketball team this year! I appreciate your perspective and understand it. But IU football is ranked in the top ten and I’m not sure Archie has ever been ranked even in the top 20 let alone the top ten, and Archie enjoys far more advantages. Moreover football has far fewer games so every quality game is like the equivalent of 3 quality games for basketball. As for Michigan and Penn State being terrible, IU making them look bad is part of the equation. They were both ranked nicely when we beat them. Teams can look bad after a tough loss because they look demoralized. IU sucked the life out of both teams. Regardless, it is tough to argue that Archie has remotely had the success Allen has on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaloisGroupe Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 57 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said: I appreciate your perspective and understand it. But IU football is ranked in the top ten and I’m not sure Archie has ever been ranked even in the top 20 let alone the top ten, and Archie enjoys far more advantages. Moreover football has far fewer games so every quality game is like the equivalent of 3 quality games for basketball. As for Michigan and Penn State being terrible, IU making them look bad is part of the equation. They were both ranked nicely when we beat them. Teams can look bad after a tough loss because they look demoralized. IU sucked the life out of both teams. Regardless, it is tough to argue that Archie has remotely had the success Allen has on the field. PSU and Michigan are terrible because the only win for either team is against a 1-3 Minnesota team (in fact all our opponents are a combined 3-13 and none have beaten a team with a record better than 1-3). You might be able to convince me we demoralized PSU some, but Michigan was not good before they played us. In the past 3.5 seasons of football we have two "football" wins over ranked opponents (#8 PSU and #23 Michigan this year) In past 3 seasons for basketball we have wins against 2017-2018: #18 Notre Dame 2018-2019: #24 Marquette, #6 MSU, #19 Wisconsin, #6 MSU (again) = 4 wins 2019-2020: #17 FSU, #11 OSU, #11 MSU, #21 Iowa, #9 PSU = 5 wins This is a total of 10 basketball wins (and 3 are against top ten) which converts to 10/3 ~ 3.33 football equivalent wins (using your own conversion factor). Does this mean I am more happy with CAM's body of work than Allen's? Certainly NOT - because for me, the bar for football is not the same as for the basketball team. I expect the basketball team to regularly contend for championships. I hope that the football team occasionally makes a bowl game. RELATIVE to my expectations, Allen has exceeded (started to) and CAM is not (yet) where I expect IU to be. But unless your "it is tough to argue that Archie has remotely had the success Allen has on the field" is a play on words because Archie's success came on a court (not a field), I disagree in ABSOLUTES. It is debatable AND at this time, it is my opinion we have still had more quality wins in basketball and generally outperformed football over the last 3+ seasons. NB: If we beat OSU on Saturday, then I will start to agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass Cannon Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 It’s year 4 for Archie and Tom Allen. Allen had the best season in recent IU history in his 3rd year. Archie would have been an off the bubble tourney team in his 3rd year. To be blunt Archie can only generate excitement by winning big. To win we need to stop being essentially the same flawed team we have been. People don’t get excited by a 6-10 Big Ten finish. Archie is going to have to exceed expectations if he wants there to be excitement. That’s going to be new for him here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaloisGroupe Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said: It’s year 4 for Archie and Tom Allen. Allen had the best season in recent IU history in his 3rd year. Archie would have been an off the bubble tourney team in his 3rd year. To be blunt Archie can only generate excitement by winning big. To win we need to stop being essentially the same flawed team we have been. People don’t get excited by a 6-10 Big Ten finish. Archie is going to have to exceed expectations if he wants there to be excitement. That’s going to be new for him here. This is my point exactly, we do not have the same expectations for the football. Last years "best season in recent IU history" was basically the football equivalent of losing in the first weekend of the NCAA tournament. AWESOME for football, not acceptable for basketball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass Cannon Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 And for the record I have little to no confidence in Archie. I didn’t think he was the right hire. I have yet to see anything on the court to make me think I was wrong and now that he is struggling to recruit the writing is essentially on the wall barring a dramatic turn around that I don’t think is likely. He’s refused to abandon flawed concepts for 3 years. Just don’t think he’s willing to change enough to be successful in the long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inequality Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 Coach Miller, by everyone's estimation. Would have had IU in the tournament last season. If it were not for the pandemic. Have we all forgotten what Mike Davis did when he took IU into the tournament ? What's not to say that Coach Miller could not have done the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass Cannon Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, milehiiu said: Coach Miller, by everyone's estimation. Would have had IU in the tournament last season. If it were not for the pandemic. Have we all forgotten what Mike Davis did when he took IU into the tournament ? What's not to say that Coach Miller could not have done the same. How’d one magic tourney run fair for Mike Davis and his longevity with the program? Not Consistently contending for a league title is simply not acceptable for the second highest paid coach in the conference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 Who would have ever thought beating Penn State, Michigan and Michigan State in football would be considered a weak resume. I looked at that schedule pre-season and thought...here we go again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 19 minutes ago, FKIM01 said: Who would have ever thought beating Penn State, Michigan and Michigan State in football would be considered a weak resume. I looked at that schedule pre-season and thought...here we go again. Some fans just drive me crazy because no matter what happens it is never enough. For years all I have heard is the big ten is killing IU by us being in the East division. Everyone says the big ten east is the hardest division in college footy. Now we are 4-0 in the division now it is horrible. We are talking about IU football so any win is a something to get excited about. Been a fan all of my life and.out of those 50 years we probably have had 8 good years. This could be the best IU team in my lifetime, yet people find something to down grade the accomplishments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inequality Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 1988 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronkonagurski Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 23 hours ago, Bob said: I didn’t mean Archie needs to jump up and down. I meant Archie teams need to cause some fan excitement by playing better Playing better would definitely up my excitement level for IU hoops. 😎 Tell 'em we are on the verge of becoming a football school, time to keep up! 😜 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IowaHoosierFan Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 14 hours ago, IU Scott said: What surprised me when looking at the highest paid coach list that Utah had the 8tj highest paid coach So was CTC, which makes it even more of a hard pill to swallow that you're paying top 10 money for bottom tier results so far. Which is why i expect more and starting this year it needs to start happening. No more excuses. No more time. No more we need to wait and see. It starts now. And as always Scott, you never think we can get a top tier coach to come here and this topic has been beaten to death about how much is to much to offer a coach and how much would IU actually offer so i won't get us back onto that ditch. Lets just say that i think we can and could easily do better. Personally, had the money been in the 7-8 mil a year, i think we would have Donovan in a heartbeat. But lets not argue that, its my own personal opinion and you won't change your and i won't change mine on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATX_sig Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 IMO, IU should be an elite program but Archie took over a mess. Maybe he had more talent than when Crean took over but the players didn't seem to fit together or fit his style of coaching. IMO, last year you could start to see the culture he has been building. Hope to see the benefits this season or I agree that Archie seat likey get real hot. Going forward the lack of depth in the frontcourt is concerning especially if Race graduates and leaves. I don't think Billy D. wants to return to college anytime soon. If he really wanted that he would took off this pandemic year and waited for a nice opening to open up of which he would be a prime candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IowaHoosierFan Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 1 hour ago, ATX_sig said: IMO, IU should be an elite program but Archie took over a mess. Maybe he had more talent than when Crean took over but the players didn't seem to fit together or fit his style of coaching. IMO, last year you could start to see the culture he has been building. Hope to see the benefits this season or I agree that Archie seat likey get real hot. Going forward the lack of depth in the frontcourt is concerning especially if Race graduates and leaves. I don't think Billy D. wants to return to college anytime soon. If he really wanted that he would took off this pandemic year and waited for a nice opening to open up of which he would be a prime candidate. I mentioned Billy D back when we hired CAM. I truly believe had we had a 7mil number as the salary, we would have had him. But why take a lateral move or less money to come back to College. And i do agree that he is unlikely to come back to college. But never say never. You're very unlikely to be killed by a giraffe but the percentage is never zero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said: I mentioned Billy D back when we hired CAM. I truly believe had we had a 7mil number as the salary, we would have had him. But why take a lateral move or less money to come back to College. And i do agree that he is unlikely to come back to college. But never say never. You're very unlikely to be killed by a giraffe but the percentage is never zero Donovan will not be coming back to college and don't think those rumors were true back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 28 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Donovan will not be coming back to college and don't think those rumors were true back then. Never was real, just look at where he is now, shortly after leaving the Thunder position -- shortly after winning NBA COY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 The rumors about Donovan were fact. The part about him looking for houses in B-town were not true. How do I know ? Because I have a friend who had dinner with Donovan at the time in Kentucky. And Donovan told him that he turned down the IU gig.... because they were not offering enough money. Billy Donovan contract: Bulls ink new head coach to four-year, $24 million deal, per report Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLDIUFAN Posted November 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 I am not giving up on Archie! Durham is the last of Creans guys so everyone else is Archie’s picks. So it’s time for his teams to get the personality he is looking for. His team needs to win some big games. And we need to be in the hunt of the conference and no longer a bubble team to get into the tournament! IU should be a team that is solidly in the tournament year in and year out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inequality Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 1 hour ago, milehiiu said: The rumors about Donovan were fact. The part about him looking for houses in B-town were not true. How do I know ? Because I have a friend who had dinner with Donovan at the time in Kentucky. And Donovan told him that he turned down the IU gig.... because they were not offering enough money. Billy Donovan contract: Bulls ink new head coach to four-year, $24 million deal, per report Same thing with slick Rick. He was salivating over the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, Inequality said: Same thing with slick Rick. He was salivating over the job. Yeah color me extremely skeptical on the Donovan talk. Not buying it. Everyone has their 'sources' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 Some sources are better than others. My source years ago told me about Sampson getting fired well before getting fired and nailed the amount of the buyout, a week before John Decker got credit for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 Billy Donovan's wife personally reached out to me to see if I knew of any good Dry Cleaners in Bloomington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.