Wow. Just WOW !

[milehiiu]

Great discussion guys.  Really appreciate all of your submissions.  No question, IU has work to do.  Not sure, though, that Archie is the problem. 

[BGleas]

5 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I think Archie could have a frank one on one conversation with Juwan and explain to him that Clifton, Justin, and Al are getting extended PT in preparation for next year.  Juwan is smart enough, and cares enough about winning, to understand how that benefits him.  

I don’t know about that. Players know who is ready and who isn’t, and if it’s me I’m going to be pretty ticked if I’m Juwon that I’m wasting half a year while my new coach lets Clifton Moore play when he’s not ready. Al has had plenty of chances and will continue to play, so that one is a moot point. Smith is the puzzling one to me, I agree he could be helping this team more. 

[FW_Hoosier]

I don’t see how it would be “giving up on the season” to give Green a longer leash to try and build his confidence, play Smith more than 3 minutes in a game, or even just put Moore in during the last 5 minutes of a game when the upperclassmen have clearly given up.  I don’t understand why Rob and Newkirk seem to get a ton of leeway to play as sloppily as they want, while Green gets benched immediately after his first mistake and Smith doesn’t even really get a chance to play.

As it stands, we will be lucky to get 6 conference wins with the garbage lineup we’re currently trotting out.  Playing the younger guys cannot make the team any worse than it already is.

[BGleas]

Like I said, I completely agree on Smith. To be honest, I’d rather see all the guards play less, and move to a more traditional lineup with Smith, McRoberts and Hartman playing more. 

On the guards, they all need a confidence boost. I’m not sure what is going on with the confidence there. I’ve been a huge critic of RoJo’s, but he’s by far the best perimeter defender on the team, and given his shooting struggles at least he’s not out there taking horrible shots and forcing things. I’ve was also a huge proponent of Green’s last year and over the summer, but with him it’s tough. He doesn’t just make bad turnovers (which RoJo does too), but he also take awful, awful shots. 

But hey, as someone that has liked Green, and on a team that struggles to score and create easy baskets, I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing Archie kind of loosen the reigns on him and let him fly a bit. It might give the entire team a shot of energy. But, Green has got to reign in the horrible shots and shoot better.  I just wish Green had earned it or forced Archie with his play, as opposed to kind of throwing things against a wall to see if it sticks. 

[dbmhoosier]

People really need to just step off the ledge.  These transitions take time.  Look at Roy's first season at UNC and that was with 3 top 10 players.  Gregg Marshall did wonders at Winthrop but look at his first couple seasons at Wichita.   Look at Pitino's first season at UL.

 

 

[5fouls]

I'm not on the ledge at all.  But, the coach has to accept responsibility for the failures of the team just as he receives credit for the successes.  If we're going to pat Archie on the back for Notre Dame, and how well we played against Duke, then we also have to question what happened against ISU, FW, and Wisky.  

And, going ahead and beating the dead horse once again, if we acknowledge that it's a process that takes time, why are we not giving minutes to those guys that will actually be here when the process begins to bear fruit?  The minutes those guys are not receiving now are minutes they will need to spend next season learning how to play in game situations.  We're slowing the whole process down that way. 

[Seeking6]

12 hours ago, milehiiu said:

 Has Archie Miller improved Indiana basketball? Nope.

 

Sounds to me like this "journalist" basically listened to Dakich show on Wednesday and wrote an article. I don't know his history nor do I care about reading his old work. I'll say this. IU is and always will be the biggest target in the Midwest to pile on when it's not going well. And honestly...it hasn't been going consistently well for a long time. 

[dbmhoosier]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

I'm not on the ledge at all.  But, the coach has to accept responsibility for the failures of the team just as he receives credit for the successes.  If we're going to pat Archie on the back for Notre Dame, and how well we played against Duke, then we also have to question what happened against ISU, FW, and Wisky.  

And, going ahead and beating the dead horse once again, if we acknowledge that it's a process that takes time, why are we not giving minutes to those guys that will actually be here when the process begins to bear fruit?  The minutes those guys are not receiving now are minutes they will need to spend next season learning how to play in game situations.  We're slowing the whole process down that way. 

The reason he's not playing those other guys is that he doesn't want to throw away the season just yet.  We've proven that we can play with good teams as we did against ND, Duke, and Louisville.   If he starts giving Durham, Smith, and Moore major minutes and benches the seniors we'd get blown out every game.  

[Parakeet Jones]

8 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

 I don’t understand why Rob and Newkirk seem to get a ton of leeway to play as sloppily as they want, while Green gets benched immediately after his first mistake and Smith doesn’t even really get a chance to play.

 

I am in the same boat as you.  I sometimes wonder if he is being harder on Green since he is a sophomore and using the bench to try to motivate him, but that he lets Rojo and Newkirk go because they are lost causes for lack of a better term.  I'm not saying I agree with this or that I would swear to it, but it is a thought I have had. 

[rico]

2 hours ago, 5fouls said:

I'm not on the ledge at all.  But, the coach has to accept responsibility for the failures of the team just as he receives credit for the successes.  If we're going to pat Archie on the back for Notre Dame, and how well we played against Duke, then we also have to question what happened against ISU, FW, and Wisky.  

And, going ahead and beating the dead horse once again, if we acknowledge that it's a process that takes time, why are we not giving minutes to those guys that will actually be here when the process begins to bear fruit?  The minutes those guys are not receiving now are minutes they will need to spend next season learning how to play in game situations.  We're slowing the whole process down that way. 

I am in your corner.  It makes no sense to me as to why the young guys(sans Al) are not seeing more court time.  

[slojoe]

14 hours ago, jefftheref said:

One of the problems MIller has is what are this teams strengths? Shooting, defense, hustle, mental toughness, communication, enthusiasm or taking care of the ball. , 

Very true.  Some would say we lack "an identity". 

[rico]

2 minutes ago, slojoe said:

Very true.  Some would say we lack "an identity". 

I would say we lack a PG.

[Proud2BAHoosier]

1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

The reason he's not playing those other guys is that he doesn't want to throw away the season just yet.  We've proven that we can play with good teams as we did against ND, Duke, and Louisville.   If he starts giving Durham, Smith, and Moore major minutes and benches the seniors we'd get blown out every game.  

IMO, the season is already lost. As far as any tournaments, that ship has sailed. I'd rather have the new guys playing more even in blow outs as long as they're gaining experience and learning from it. Obviously Rob and Josh just don't get it and it's too late for them again this is just my opinion.

[BGleas]

3 minutes ago, Proud2BAHoosier said:

IMO, the season is already lost. As far as any tournaments, that ship has sailed. I'd rather have the new guys playing more even in blow outs as long as they're gaining experience and learning from it. Obviously Rob and Josh just don't get it and it's too late for them again this is just my opinion.

The season is lost for fans, because no we're not making the tournament, but a coach can't operate that way. Archie can't just throw in the towel on the season 3 games into his Big Ten tenure. It would send a terrible message. 

Rob and Josh have not been good, but they do get it way more than Green does right now. I was a big Green fan last year and over the summer, but right now he's playing undisciplined, selfish basketball. He's jacking up terrible shots, turning it over, and hasn't been great on defense. I don't think Archie can reward that. 

I know Rob and Newkirk have their flaws and I've been a huge critic of Rob's, but Rob plays the best perimeter defense on the team and isn't forcing shots despite his shooting struggles. I can't believe this is the case, but Newkirk is our most reliable ball handler and has been shooting the 3 (among guys that take them regularly) better than anyone. 

Green has a lot of upside, and shows flashes, but despite my post earlier in the thread, I just think throwing him out there would send a bad message. If Green was playing well I would be all over calling for him to be given the reigns. 

Where I do agree is that Archie, or at least something, seems to have killed the confidence of all of our guards. I always felt we were a poor shooting team, but the shooting numbers the guards are putting up, outside of Newkirk, are just abysmal and it's up to the coach to figure that out. He's got to find a way to get their confidence back up and lessen the pressure they're feeling. I mean Rob is shooting 30% from deep, Green is at 34% from the field and 29% from deep, even Hartman (before Wiscky) and Morgan are struggling from deep. Something has to change there.  

One thing I completely agree on is Smith should be playing more, much more. 

[rico]

A coach can adapt to what is going on.  Try a full court press.  Play a zone.  Experiment with the starting line-up.  Go big.  Hell I don't know, but I aint liking what I have seen so far.

[IowaHoosierFan]

The article isn't wrong.  Is it in bad taste to throw it out there and blast on CAM.  Maybe.  But the good and bad points he pointed out are the same things we complain about in the game threads.  We're all disappointed with Davis.  We all wish he would play the freshmen and sophomores more than RoJo and Newkirk.

I believe that Archie is a good coach.  And its only been half a season so far.  But what is dis concerning to me is we haven't changed anything up.  The same defense that doesn't work, the same offense that doesn't work, and the same line-ups that don't work.  My hope is that its just the players not caring or just not being a good mixture for this style of game.  But there is always the fear in the back of my mind that the stage is too big for CAM and he doesn't know how to adjust to it.  This is Indiana, every team brings it.  When you're Dayton, You bring it to the big name teams you play.

But i am not on the ledge, i am not worried about the future of IU basketball.  We will be fine one way or another.  I will watch the games, but unfortunately, the last game i was excited to watch was the tourney game in Iowa Against Kentucky.  Since then, i have been so disappointed in this team and these players.  I just don't care enough to get upset or excited one way or another.

[FW_Hoosier]

It is kind of strange that with how bad our guards are playing, Archie seems to be refusing to go away from a three guard lineup for basically the entire game.  

[Coach1K]

Davis in my mind is being brutally honest about what has been occurring for the last nine months and he saying just about everything that the fan base has been saying for nine months. Davis is saying that even though there is a new sherif in town things have not changed and who knows if they will and while Miller is owning up to the mistakes that are being made the players have to do the same as well. I think if you're Archie you would love to start fresh with players that you have recruited that will play the way you want to and that is the problem with the existing guys they don't seem to want to adapt to a new style of play on offense and defense. 

[CampHoosier]

13 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Here's what I'm having trouble getting my arms around.  Archie is sticking to his guns regarding the style of play, but the players getting the majority of minutes are not even going to be around once Archie gets his players. 

I read another poster make this point but I think he wants to honor the guys who he inherited. They spent 2-3 years playing for IU and didn't ask for a new coach. Would not be a good look if a new coach came in and just sat the older guys who aren't going to help him in the future. That leads to mass transfers and broken relationships.

Having said that, I don't think one damn person in Indiana thinks these upperclassmen have shown enough effort to play. I was happy when Gelon left but damn if I don't think that kid would bust his butt to wear Indiana across his chest this season. How can any of these guys look Collin in the face after each game. The guy came back for one final season after injury after injury and they won't even fight for him. If they give him another senior night speech I would stay. Otherwise I will smile widely as I leave that final home game as McSwain, RoJo, and Priller exit Indiana forever. 

[3Ballin]

12 hours ago, BGleas said:

Like I said, I completely agree on Smith. To be honest, I’d rather see all the guards play less, and move to a more traditional lineup with Smith, McRoberts and Hartman playing more. 

On the guards, they all need a confidence boost. I’m not sure what is going on with the confidence there. I’ve been a huge critic of RoJo’s, but he’s by far the best perimeter defender on the team, and given his shooting struggles at least he’s not out there taking horrible shots and forcing things. I’ve was also a huge proponent of Green’s last year and over the summer, but with him it’s tough. He doesn’t just make bad turnovers (which RoJo does too), but he also take awful, awful shots. 

But hey, as someone that has liked Green, and on a team that struggles to score and create easy baskets, I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing Archie kind of loosen the reigns on him and let him fly a bit. It might give the entire team a shot of energy. But, Green has got to reign in the horrible shots and shoot better.  I just wish Green had earned it or forced Archie with his play, as opposed to kind of throwing things against a wall to see if it sticks. 

On Green, I think thats what he did some last year was do things that made it really hard to keep him on the bench. Now, he is still doing some of tbose same things, but the freshman mistakes haven't gone away and actually look worse. I agree EVERYBODY looks tight and affraid to screw up rather than just playing ball, but with Green, I think it shows the most and takes away from what he does well the most. 

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

It is kind of strange that with how bad our guards are playing, Archie seems to be refusing to go away from a three guard lineup for basically the entire game.  

Agree. I would wait for the next home game and not test this Saturday (Barn is tough place to play and Minny has a stud big) but I'd be interested in seeing a Newkirk, RoJo, McRoberts (or Hartman), Smith, Morgan lineup that tries to stick to the defensive principles, but plays faster on offense. But, you have to really give Smith a chance to play. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

53 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree. I would wait for the next home game and not test this Saturday (Barn is tough place to play and Minny has a stud big) but I'd be interested in seeing a Newkirk, RoJo, McRoberts (or Hartman), Smith, Morgan lineup that tries to stick to the defensive principles, but plays faster on offense. But, you have to really give Smith a chance to play. 

i started another thread on this bur Lynch is suspend from Minn for sexual allegations until 2020.  He can appeal but he isn't playing saturday, and they are already without Mason.  Might be a good time to try something different

[BGleas]

2 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

i started another thread on this bur Lynch is suspend from Minn for sexual allegations until 2020.  He can appeal but he isn't playing saturday, and they are already without Mason.  Might be a good time to try something different

I meant Jordan Murphy. I thought he was a big too, looks like more of a wing. My bad. 

[CampHoosier]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Agree. I would wait for the next home game and not test this Saturday (Barn is tough place to play and Minny has a stud big) but I'd be interested in seeing a Newkirk, RoJo, McRoberts (or Hartman), Smith, Morgan lineup that tries to stick to the defensive principles, but plays faster on offense. But, you have to really give Smith a chance to play. 

Somehow through the years and different board jumps I have always made it to the same board as you. I just want to say your college and NBA insights are second to none and I always appreciate the knowledge you have brought and continue to bring to each board. 

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, CampHoosier said:

Somehow through the years and different board jumps I have always made it to the same board as you. I just want to say your college and NBA insights are second to none and I always appreciate the knowledge you have brought and continue to bring to each board. 

I really appreciate the kind words, thanks so much! I absolutely remember you from all the various boards and have always learned from and enjoyed your posts as well.