Davis/Smith discussion

[Hoosierhoopster]

34 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Absolutely. That’s why we may really have something if Morgan’s 3-pt shooting the other night wasn’t fools gold. With Morgan and Smith both being able to shoot it really opens up the offense and penetrating lanes for guys like RoJo, Newkirk, Green, etc. 

I'd add that even if they're not stroking it from outside, their movement in and out from the elbow also opens up the floor. Don't get me wrong, I like Davis and think he has a lot of potential, but Smith adds mobility, athleticism, and quickness that alters how teams can defend. I loved seeing that kid explode against Minn, rooting for him to keep it going, and regardless, pretty clear he has a high ceiling.

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I'd add that even if they're not stroking it from outside, their movement in and out from the elbow also opens up the floor. Don't get me wrong, I like Davis and think he has a lot of potential, but Smith adds mobility, athleticism, and quickness that alters how teams can defend. I loved seeing that kid explode against Minn, rooting for him to keep it going, and regardless, pretty clear he has a high ceiling.

Completely agree. This new lineup changes a lot of things in terms of how the team can play on both ends. 

[milehiiu]

Smith rising to the occasion for IU 

[KoB2011]

11 hours ago, BGleas said:

There’s really no difference. McRoberts is a wing. When we play McRoberts we’re playing a bigger, more traditional lineup. Whether you want to call him a 2-guard or a small forward, they’re both wing positions, and when McRoberts is in we only have two traditional guards in the lineup. 

In the future you’re going to see point guard, wing, wing, stretch 4, Big. 

They do similar things, but there is a difference, at least from Archie's POV. Every minute ZM has played this season he has been asked to guard perimeter players and play on the perimeter on offense. CH guards forwards and is banging down on defense a lot. Offensive he isn't on the perimeter as much as McRoberts either. 

Have you ever seen ZM play with only one of Morgan/Davis/McSwain/Hartman? Have you ever seen Hartman play with more than one of those guys? Like I said to 5, we may think of them interchangeably but they don't actually play the same position. For sake of a discussing a lineup that we meet actually see they wouldn't be put in the same player groups. 

[IUaic]

14 hours ago, rico said:

I got a feeling you are talking Iowa in 1989.  The Hoosiers had the Big 10 clinched, rested their starters, and got beat by like 20 points.  Ironically, IU received a #2 seed.  Second place Illinois got a #1.  Bad move on Knight's part.  They shipped us out West.

I think he was referring to this game where the starters sat most of the game.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/28/sports/college-basketball-hoosiers-humiliated-worst-loss-in-89-years.html

[IUaic]

14 hours ago, rico said:

 

[rico]

10 minutes ago, IUaic said:

I think he was referring to this game where the starters sat most of the game.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/28/sports/college-basketball-hoosiers-humiliated-worst-loss-in-89-years.html

I forgot about that one.  Thanks for reminding me. I will do some digging.

[BGleas]

56 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

They do similar things, but there is a difference, at least from Archie's POV. Every minute ZM has played this season he has been asked to guard perimeter players and play on the perimeter on offense. CH guards forwards and is banging down on defense a lot. Offensive he isn't on the perimeter as much as McRoberts either. 

Have you ever seen ZM play with only one of Morgan/Davis/McSwain/Hartman? Have you ever seen Hartman play with more than one of those guys? Like I said to 5, we may think of them interchangeably but they don't actually play the same position. For sake of a discussing a lineup that we meet actually see they wouldn't be put in the same player groups. 

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my response. I didn't mean the difference between McRoberts and Hartman. Yes, Hartman plays a "forward" position. As you said, he defends more interior players and in old school terminology plays more of a "stretch 4".

I was commenting mainly on whether McRoberts is a guard or a forward, and whether we're still in a 3-guard lineup when he's in. I think the old school 1-2-3-4-5 have pretty much gone by the wayside, and I wouldn't consider McRoberts a guard. I consider him a wing, which I guess you could correlate to an old school 3/small forward. But when he's in I don't consider that a 3-guard lineup. He doesn't bring the ball up and initiate the offense like the other guards do and he spends more time in the corner and wing on offense and in the paint rebounding as opposed to being the guy responsible for getting back when a shot goes up. 

[KoB2011]

44 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my response. I didn't mean the difference between McRoberts and Hartman. Yes, Hartman plays a "forward" position. As you said, he defends more interior players and in old school terminology plays more of a "stretch 4".

I was commenting mainly on whether McRoberts is a guard or a forward, and whether we're still in a 3-guard lineup when he's in. I think the old school 1-2-3-4-5 have pretty much gone by the wayside, and I wouldn't consider McRoberts a guard. I consider him a wing, which I guess you could correlate to an old school 3/small forward. But when he's in I don't consider that a 3-guard lineup. He doesn't bring the ball up and initiate the offense like the other guards do and he spends more time in the corner and wing on offense and in the paint rebounding as opposed to being the guy responsible for getting back when a shot goes up. 

I agree with you on this. I'd say RoJo, although smaller plays a wing just like McRoberts where as Newkirk and sometimes Green and Durham are playing more of a guard/ball handler role. 

RoJo expands the wing duties a little more, but he is never really initiating the offense for us. This actually makes me wonder if that change for him from prior seasons has been part of the reason for his lack of articles on offense? When these guys played under Crean anyone could initiate the offense and now they can't. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

I agree with you on this. I'd say RoJo, although smaller plays a wing just like McRoberts where as Newkirk and sometimes Green and Durham are playing more of a guard/ball handler role. 

RoJo expands the wing duties a little more, but he is never really initiating the offense for us. This actually makes me wonder if that change for him from prior seasons has been part of the reason for his lack of articles on offense? When these guys played under Crean anyone could initiate the offense and now they can't. 

I think RoJo is better as the kick wing.  The main shooter(s) get the best defender and RoJo thrives in the kick me the ball for the wide open 3 shot, or the drive to the rim.  He isn't as quick as needs to be to beat the best defenders he is getting and make his own shot.  But when he gets in a groove and gets open with some confidence, he can shoot and score.  Games we won are due to him scoring 15+

[BGleas]

I'm hoping (not counting on it since he's been so inconsistent) that the Minnesota game is a bit of a turning point for RoJo. A couple reasons beyond just hoping he's out of his shooting funk.

1) I think the lineup change maybe benefits him as much as anyone. Having Smith instead of Davis, and having Morgan actually make some 3's really opens the floor up for Rob to get some easy baskets at the rim, which is big for him.

2) I don't know if this was a purposeful change or not, but IU ran several off-ball screens to free RoJo on Saturday. Outside of the flex action we run at times, that's not something we've typically done, and RoJo is better when he's freed to get into the lane or shoot off the catch, as opposed to having to create his shot off the pick and roll. 

[BobSaccamanno]

I think this is a great point about the floor opening up for Rob to drive.  There definitely was congestion during Rob's drives as he would try to find a gap to get to the rim.  When Rob doesn't shoot well, he can at least drive well, but when the congestion would stymie his drives, all of a sudden Rob would go into a deeper funk.

[KoB2011]

38 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I think this is a great point about the floor opening up for Rob to drive.  There definitely was congestion during Rob's drives as he would try to find a gap to get to the rim.  When Rob doesn't shoot well, he can at least drive well, but when the congestion would stymie his drives, all of a sudden Rob would go into a deeper funk.

Also, just seeing the ball goes in makes you a better shooter.  Most good shooters still need to see the ball go in.  

[FKIM01]

On 1/8/2018 at 8:59 PM, JerseyHoosier said:

Kind of crazy our "big" right now is 6'7" Morgan. Even more crazy that he how he plays so much bigger than his height this year! 

It's the hair.

[ButlerHoosier]

When I watch Smith play I see him being greatful to have playing time and doesn't expect it. Yes he is a freshman and makes mistakes and picks up stupid fouls but when he plays he has a high motor and athleticism to match it. He needs to work on a quicker release on his shot though from what I've seen to warrant players to not sag off of him. He has shown an ability to make the three which opens up lanes for our guards. With Davis before his injury I just am not understanding what is going on with him. He seems very flat and expects playing time. His shot has regressed at the line. That could be from losing weight and gaining muscle but I don't know. He reminds me of Jeremy Hollowell or Landon Turner in a sense. He has all the talent in the world and could be dominant but just doesn't allow himself to be that. You can see it playing against Duke. Maybe he just needs another year to put it all together. He also needs to developer a jumper to open lanes up. When I see the lineup of Newkirk Rojo McRoberts Smith and Morgan it reminds me of the lineups Archie had at Dayton. It seems like he is comfortable with those types of lineups. Only problem though is that he never really played teams on a regular basis like MSU and Purdue that have meaningful significant size which will be hard to counteract. I can see us playing Moore alot more out of necessity because of foul trouble.